shooter slips and falls down. do you stop them?

[teros135]

Doesn't DAO mean "Double Action Only"? Like the Beretta 96D? No cocking, just double action.

[bret]

Doesn't DAO mean "Double Action Only"? Like the Beretta 96D? No cocking, just double action.

Yes

[Nik Habicht]

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 Single action chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 Double action chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

8.1.2.3 Selective action chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

(I have always been a bit confused by 8.1.2.2. If the gun is DA (as in DAO), isn't the hammer always fully down? The furthest that I have strayed from 1911 pistols is the CZ so pardon my ignorance)

DAO - yes hammer is always down

DA - not necessarily...DA is the condition for a pistol that is DA/SA...decocking a DA pistol will not necessarily put the hammer all the way down.

Wouldn't a DAO pistol, with a live round in the chamber, be fully cocked and hammer/striker up? The only time that they aren't cocked is after ICHDH command, right?

Nope -- a hammer fired DAO gun like say the S&W 3rd gen autos (5943, 4043 if I remember the model numbers correctly) the hammer stays forward, i.e. down after every shot. Imagine a CZ-75 variant, where every shot is double action, i.e. the hammer never stays back, but follows the slide back down as the action cycles. There was no way for the hammer to be cocked -- they're like a DAO revolver essentially.

Nik, you are talking about a very small segment of pistols, which the majority of competitors are not using. 99% of DAO striker fired guns are always cocked unless the trigger has been pulled. Now, with that being said, how can you apply the rule to that situation, especially in a striker fired gun with no external safety? You lay a glock on the ground, with a mag inserted, and a round in the pipe. No matter which way you slice it, that gun is cocked. And in violation of the rule.

A Glock is not DAO -- it's striker fired. The striker is only partially cocked, or to the rear. And when I lay it down, the primary safety -- which, granted, is embedded in the center of the trigger -- is both functional and applied. (That's also most likely why it's not kosher to disable safeties in Production, whereas in Lim or Open etc. you may disable a grip safety on a 1911/2011).

Also -- that language has been around since at least the 14th edition rules of 2001, so it's not exactly anything new.

Fun factoid: at my first USPSA match, I shot prone for the first time. Having no idea how to safely get up with a gun at the time, I cleared the Glock, locked the slide to the rear, set it down, got up, and then retrieved the gun -- prompting a discussion about whether or not I would be disqualified.

[grapemeister]

I once stopped and prevented a shooter from breaking the 180. The shooter, after engaging some targets down range, turned, was facing up range, and was about to continue turning with the gun going the same direction when I yelled stop. I was certain that if I had not yelled stop the gun would have swept me and the peanut gallery behind me. Everyone present, except for the shooter, agreed that I did the right thing. Of course, the shooter had to reshoot the stage.

The shooter was angry with me at the time but later in the match apologized, thanked me and admitted that I did the right thing.

Edited May 20, 2016 by grapemeister

[ima45dv8]

I shot a match with a sort-of Cooper Tunnel made of pallets. Not boards from pallets that had been deconstructed, but intact pallets. And they were attached to one another with screws. Very secure. A short-statured shooter learned during the walkthrough that he could stay almost upright (yeah, he's short) and race through the last part of the tunnel.

All went according to plan until he stood up just a split second too soon while running out the end of the tunnel. No slats were dislodged because this damn tunnel was SOLID. He came out with a gash in his scalp and a serious wobble in his legs. He was turning left and right but didn't break the 180. He looked like a one of those cartoon characters with little birdies circling his head while his eyes rotated in opposite directions.

Yes, we stopped him although no actual safety violation had yet occurred.

Yes, he got a reshoot.

No, other than his self-inflicted agonies, no one got hurt.

I have no regrets about our actions or the result.

[bret]

I don't see the point of stopping people for what they may do.

A stage I was on another R.O. stopped a guy, scared the guy and in doing so he broke 180 and got DQ'd.

The shooter asked why he was stopped, the R.O. said you were close to 180.

The guy was safe, didn't break 180 until the R.O. stopped him and caused him to break 180.

Seems like some R.O.'s are winging it and making up their own rules.

Only reason to stop a shooter is a REF or a Safety Issue.

I have seen guys bust their butt, not break any safety rules and kept shooting.

At the Florida Open on the 2nd stage I cut myself pretty good on the stage but kept going, even though I was bleeding all over, the R.O. didn't stop me, he did what he was supposed to do and didn't interfere with me.

Edited May 20, 2016 by bret

[frgood]

It seems the rules are pretty clear regarding the state of the gun, and the group seems to understand that if the shooter recovers safely may continue.

Discretion on the RO may occur, and is valid, if there is a medical need. This may include, as seen in Florida, heat exhaustion that is exacerbated from a fall as an example. This would be maintaining a safe environment. I would expect no less. I have seen some elderly shooters become disoriented on the heat and physical stress. the adrenaline dump may mask it to some extend. But it does become evident. It is how many 'accidents' occur.

[GrumpyOne]

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 Single action chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 Double action chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

8.1.2.3 Selective action chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

(I have always been a bit confused by 8.1.2.2. If the gun is DA (as in DAO), isn't the hammer always fully down? The furthest that I have strayed from 1911 pistols is the CZ so pardon my ignorance)

DAO - yes hammer is always down

DA - not necessarily...DA is the condition for a pistol that is DA/SA...decocking a DA pistol will not necessarily put the hammer all the way down.

Wouldn't a DAO pistol, with a live round in the chamber, be fully cocked and hammer/striker up? The only time that they aren't cocked is after ICHDH command, right?

Nope -- a hammer fired DAO gun like say the S&W 3rd gen autos (5943, 4043 if I remember the model numbers correctly) the hammer stays forward, i.e. down after every shot. Imagine a CZ-75 variant, where every shot is double action, i.e. the hammer never stays back, but follows the slide back down as the action cycles. There was no way for the hammer to be cocked -- they're like a DAO revolver essentially.

Nik, you are talking about a very small segment of pistols, which the majority of competitors are not using. 99% of DAO striker fired guns are always cocked unless the trigger has been pulled. Now, with that being said, how can you apply the rule to that situation, especially in a striker fired gun with no external safety? You lay a glock on the ground, with a mag inserted, and a round in the pipe. No matter which way you slice it, that gun is cocked. And in violation of the rule.

A Glock is not DAO -- it's striker fired. The striker is only partially cocked, or to the rear. And when I lay it down, the primary safety -- which, granted, is embedded in the center of the trigger -- is both functional and applied. (That's also most likely why it's not kosher to disable safeties in Production, whereas in Lim or Open etc. you may disable a grip safety on a 1911/2011).

Also -- that language has been around since at least the 14th edition rules of 2001, so it's not exactly anything new.

Fun factoid: at my first USPSA match, I shot prone for the first time. Having no idea how to safely get up with a gun at the time, I cleared the Glock, locked the slide to the rear, set it down, got up, and then retrieved the gun -- prompting a discussion about whether or not I would be disqualified.

Nik, I would agree with you..If you were right, but you aren't...https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/4/23/clarifying-double-action-only-dao/..

Let's define double action...Per Wiki...< https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_action >

• Double-action only (DAO) firearms trigger: The trigger both cocks and releases the striker. There is no single-action function and the striker will return to its decocked position after each shot.
• Traditional double-action– or double-action/single-action (DA/SA)– firearms trigger: The trigger combines the features of both a double-action only and a single-action only trigger. The firing mechanism automatically cocks the striker after the gun is fired. This mechanism will cock and release the striker when the striker is in the down position, but on each subsequent shot, and the trigger will function as a single-action.

Even if the Glock striker is only partially cocked, it must be moved farther to the rear to finishing cocking, therefore a Glock, striker fired or not, is DAO...

Again, I ask, how can you satisfy "8.1.2.2 Double action chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked." with a Glock, which by your own words " The striker is only partially cocked, or to the rear. ".... "Partially cocked" is not hammer fully down or de-cocked, as has been established before.

8.1.2.2 says "Hammer fully down or de-cocked"...it says nothing about a safety being applied...

[grapemeister]

A Range Officer doesn't have to wait until an unsafe act to occur before stopping a shooter. Our primary job as a RO is to keep everyone safe. I don't think I would be able to live with myself if someone took a bullet in the skull and I as a RO had the opportunity to keep that from happening but didn't because at the time there was no actual unsafe act.

I don't know if you are talking about my scenario, but believe me that everyone there was in agreement that I did the right thing. Actually, I don't recall seeing a scenario presented so far in regards to this topic where I wouldn't have stopped the shooter, too.

[bret]

A Range Officer doesn't have to wait until an unsafe act to occur before stopping a shooter. Our primary job as a RO is to keep everyone safe. I don't think I would be able to live with myself if someone took a bullet in the skull and I as a RO had the opportunity to keep that from happening but didn't because at the time there was no actual unsafe act.

I don't know if you are talking about my scenario, but believe me that everyone there was in agreement that I did the right thing. Actually, I don't recall seeing a scenario presented so far in regards to this topic where I wouldn't have stopped the shooter, too.

A guy is following the rules yet he is moving with the gun at 178°.

What reason is there to stop him?

[ima45dv8]

Grumpy, the 'at rest' position of the striker (chambered, finger off trigger) in a GLOCK is, for that system, fully down. It doesn't get any more down than that.

The trigger safety, drop safety and striker safety are all fully engaged, if someone hasn't monkeyed around and disabled them.

[grapemeister]

A Range Officer doesn't have to wait until an unsafe act to occur before stopping a shooter. Our primary job as a RO is to keep everyone safe. I don't think I would be able to live with myself if someone took a bullet in the skull and I as a RO had the opportunity to keep that from happening but didn't because at the time there was no actual unsafe act.

I don't know if you are talking about my scenario, but believe me that everyone there was in agreement that I did the right thing. Actually, I don't recall seeing a scenario presented so far in regards to this topic where I wouldn't have stopped the shooter, too.

A guy is following the rules yet he is moving with the gun at 178°.

What reason is there to stop him?

Well, I explained it quite well I think in my previous post. Shoot enough matches and/or work enough matches and you'll understand. If not, please don't be an RO.

[ima45dv8]

I always hope the ROs I work and/or shoot with bring a few tools with them...rules knowledge, an attentive nature, a mature disposition, and good judgment. If in their judgment they stop a competitor for a situation that they think has a strong likelihood to get dangerous in the very near future, they'll get no grief from me even if we wind up granting a reshoot.

[bret]

A Range Officer doesn't have to wait until an unsafe act to occur before stopping a shooter. Our primary job as a RO is to keep everyone safe. I don't think I would be able to live with myself if someone took a bullet in the skull and I as a RO had the opportunity to keep that from happening but didn't because at the time there was no actual unsafe act.

I don't know if you are talking about my scenario, but believe me that everyone there was in agreement that I did the right thing. Actually, I don't recall seeing a scenario presented so far in regards to this topic where I wouldn't have stopped the shooter, too.

A guy is following the rules yet he is moving with the gun at 178°.

What reason is there to stop him?

Well, I explained it quite well I think in my previous post. Shoot enough matches and/or work enough matches and you'll understand. If not, please don't be an RO.

I have shot a few hundred matches, worked major matches as an R.O. I know and follow the rules.

Part of being an R.O. is following the rules, not making your own up or adding to the rules.

Stopping a shooter based on what you think they may do is unreasonable and I gave you an example of where an R.O. induced a D.Q., luckily the shooter had his finger off the trigger and the safety on while he was moving, yet broke no rules until the R.O. stopped him because he was close to 180.

[Flexmoney]

Grumpy, the 'at rest' position of the striker (chambered, finger off trigger) in a GLOCK is, for that system, fully down. It doesn't get any more down than that.

The trigger safety, drop safety and striker safety are all fully engaged, if someone hasn't monkeyed around and disabled them.

Right, it is "decocked" by default. And, it is "on safe".

[GrumpyOne]

Grumpy, the 'at rest' position of the striker (chambered, finger off trigger) in a GLOCK is, for that system, fully down. It doesn't get any more down than that.

The trigger safety, drop safety and striker safety are all fully engaged, if someone hasn't monkeyed around and disabled them.

Mark, it doesn't say that the safeties have to be engaged, only that the " hammer fully down or de-cocked", which isn't possible, with a round in the chamber...

And it does get more down than that...at the end of the run, the shooter unloads, shows clear, hammer downs and holsters...That is "more" down.

[motosapiens]

I gave an example or two a couple of items above, so I figured you'd read them. If you still can't or won't IMAGINE them because you've run thousands of competitors, then I don't see the point in continuing the discussion, because you have decided you haven't seen a situation where you might stop someone for anything that's not DQ-able or a forbidden action or what have you.

Guys tweak knees and twist ankles all the time, and I personally wouldn't want them to try to continue unless I could verify they were physically able to do so.

I might think they lost control of the gun or something and be determined to be wrong after I say "stop."

So they get a reshoot, which apparently messes with competitive equity, which is apparently more important than the competitor's health or admitting an RO might have thought something happened that didn't.

I have a friend who was running a competitor who biffed it in a big way and he stopped her because he wasn't sure she'd retained control of the gun. She had, so she got a reshoot. Big flippin' deal--she got to reshoot the stage and didn't have to eat a stage with a poor time because the RO wanted to make sure the competitor was safe when she ate gravel.

sorry, i re-read the thread and didn't see any relevant examples above. maybe you deleted them.

If someone tweaks a knee or twists an ankle and wants to continue, they should be able to. IMHO it's not on the RO to decide someone is too hurt to continue.

if the RO truly thinks someone has lost control of the gun, or is dangerously disoriented, that would probably be a valid reason to stop a shooter. not for a scrape or a turned ankle. I finished a motorcycle race with a torn ACL and I would have been highly PO'd if someone had tried to stop me to make sure I was safe. I'm a big boy. I can make that decision for myself, thank you.

Of course as an RO you have to make some judgement calls and you have to live with your conscience afterwards, so I'm not trying to suggest you should change your thinking. I'm just trying to understand your thinking, and express that mine (as an RO and a competitor) is different.

anyway, i guess this thread is about semantics and trigger types now.

[GrumpyOne]

Grumpy, the 'at rest' position of the striker (chambered, finger off trigger) in a GLOCK is, for that system, fully down. It doesn't get any more down than that.

The trigger safety, drop safety and striker safety are all fully engaged, if someone hasn't monkeyed around and disabled them.

Right, it is "decocked" by default.

How is "partially cocked" "decocked by default"?

[GrumpyOne]

Grumpy, the 'at rest' position of the striker (chambered, finger off trigger) in a GLOCK is, for that system, fully down. It doesn't get any more down than that.

The trigger safety, drop safety and striker safety are all fully engaged, if someone hasn't monkeyed around and disabled them.

Right, it is "decocked" by default. And, it is "on safe".

Then why does a shooter have to pull the trigger on an empty chamber at the end of his run, if the gun is already "de-cocked"?

[Flexmoney]

Grumpy, the 'at rest' position of the striker (chambered, finger off trigger) in a GLOCK is, for that system, fully down. It doesn't get any more down than that.

The trigger safety, drop safety and striker safety are all fully engaged, if someone hasn't monkeyed around and disabled them.

Right, it is "decocked" by default. And, it is "on safe".

Then why does a shooter have to pull the trigger on an empty chamber at the end of his run, if the gun is already "de-cocked"?

Because rules. Same thing with a Revolver, right?

[bret]

Grumpy, the 'at rest' position of the striker (chambered, finger off trigger) in a GLOCK is, for that system, fully down. It doesn't get any more down than that.

The trigger safety, drop safety and striker safety are all fully engaged, if someone hasn't monkeyed around and disabled them.

Right, it is "decocked" by default. And, it is "on safe".

Then why does a shooter have to pull the trigger on an empty chamber at the end of his run, if the gun is already "de-cocked"?

The reason the trigger is pulled is

1. it's in the rules,

2. It's to make sure a live round is not left in the chamber.

[ima45dv8]

To prove there is no live round in the chamber. That applies to all of the various firing systems we allow.

I think you have to maybe pull back from looking for a direct, 1-to-1 relationship/comparison between hammer-fired and striker-fired pistols.

[GrumpyOne]

Grumpy, the 'at rest' position of the striker (chambered, finger off trigger) in a GLOCK is, for that system, fully down. It doesn't get any more down than that.

The trigger safety, drop safety and striker safety are all fully engaged, if someone hasn't monkeyed around and disabled them.

Right, it is "decocked" by default. And, it is "on safe".

Then why does a shooter have to pull the trigger on an empty chamber at the end of his run, if the gun is already "de-cocked"?

Because rules. Same thing with a Revolver, right?

Point is Flex...that gun is not "de-cocked"...until the trigger is pulled. If you pull the trigger on a Glock, and anything happens, besides the trigger itself moving, the gun is not de-cocked...how exactly do you de-cock a Glock?

[GrumpyOne]

To prove there is no live round in the chamber. That applies to all of the various firing systems we allow.

I think you have to maybe pull back from looking for a direct, 1-to-1 relationship/comparison between hammer-fired and striker-fired pistols.

We were talking about DAO pistols, not necessarily the difference between striker and hammer fired...

[Flexmoney]

Best we make you point with the USPSA rule book, not wiki...

8.1.5.2 “Double Action” means activation of the trigger causes more
than a single action to occur (i.e. the hammer or striker rises or
retracts, then falls).

Therefore, the Glock is "Double Action"....according to the rule book.