GrumpyOne Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Y'all keep this going about laying guns down. I think I'm actually about to learn something. It's entertaining, none the less.If you were the R.O. and a shooter intentionally placed a loaded Glock on the ground, muzzle downrange during the COF, what is your call if any?I know what I would do, for now anyhow, but I'm staying out of this argument and just enjoying the show.As an R.O. you should be able to answer it and use the rule book to back up your call.By no means do I know it all and I'm very open to learning something. It kind of appears that I may have made the wrong call, which was no call at all, in the past, but I want to continue reading back through the tread and sort things out. This is interesting, and I didn't mean to joke about that part. The correct call per the rules is the R.O. does not interfere or stop the shooter for placing a gun in the ready position on the ground if they stay within 3 feet and no safety rules are violated. Again you are entitled to your opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Grumpy, If you are the R.O. and a competitor goes prone for a stage and places a loaded Glock on the ground. What would you do? That depends on whether he de-cocked it before placing it on the ground....you guys are missing the point...it says hammer down OR de-cocked...the only time a Glock is de-cocked is on an empty chamber after the trigger has been pulled...Semantics? Yes...but be that as it may, it is not de-cocked until that moment... Scenario, I am using a Glock I fire a stage with a prone position and have another shooting area I will shoot in after that position. I place the loaded Glock on the ground, get up from the prone position never getting further than 2 feet from the gun, the muzzle is pointed down range and I am behind the gun. What would you do? The gun is loaded, placed on the ground intentionally and facing down range. This, and all the other "hypothetical" questions here today, is obvious. You can place the Glock on the ground (or re-holster it), as long as you follow the rule book. The answer is, simply, "I wouldn't do anything other than what I usually do". You can do that. Let's get on with life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Point is, USPSA considers the Glock to be a "double-action" gun (regardless of whatever semantics arguments one wants to try to apply to it), and Glock shooters have to apply the double-action rules, where they apply. You know it, we know it, and nobody is going to apply different rules to Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, and any other striker-action guns. Continuing to push semantics isn't going to change anything. If you choose to place a striker gun on the ground, simply follow the rules in the book, and you'll be okay. And a "DAO" gun CAN'T be cocked, by definition, so none of this applies to them. I agree...but how do you hammer/striker down, or even de-cock a Glock before placing it on the ground, other than unloading it and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber? What rule says a Glock or other striker fired gun has to be unloaded and de cocked for a competitor to place it on the ground? 8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols: 8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged. 8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked. Grumpy, Forget about putting the gun down part-way through the stage - this is more interesting and entirely consistent with your point: When you perform RO duties for a Production competitor with a Glock, and you give the MR command, I'd expect them to load the Glock (for a loaded gun start stage), chamber a round, holster (for a holster start stage), and wait for the command sequence of AYR? Standby, (beep). Do you dictate that they must comply with 8.1.2.2 by then unloading, pressing the trigger (to satisfy "de-cocked"), and then inserting the magazine (without chambering a round)? Do you start them from this position (empty chamber, "de-cocked") so that you and the competitor have achieved compliance with 8.1.2.2? No, I don't...and no one would either....but the point remains, that pistol is cocked...Technically, by the rules, you can't start a competitor using a striker fired gun on a loaded start... So you're (mostly) satisfied that the Glock's condition complies with 8.1.2.2 and will proceed with AYR? Standby, (beep)... But you're not satisfied that the same condition complies with 8.1.2.2 in terms of safely grounding a gun. It seems that either you should not start the Glock competitor when there is a round in the chamber...OR... you should allow a condition that you've recognized (by your action of starting the competitor) as compliant with 8.1.2.2 to be used for safely grounding a gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Y'all keep this going about laying guns down. I think I'm actually about to learn something. It's entertaining, none the less. If you were the R.O. and a shooter intentionally placed a loaded Glock on the ground, muzzle downrange during the COF, what is your call if any? i don't make a call at all. a striker fired pistol is considered to be safe in that condition, just like a 1911 on safe or an external hammer gun with the hammer fully decocked. I love the rules, and I get that 8.1 doesn't really exactly cover every nuance of striker-fired guns, but I don't think it's sporting to try to twist and distort the rules in order to screw over shooters, even glock shooters. the same condition they are allowed to start in is fine for them to set the gun down in order to get up or whatever. Whether it is considered as safe is immaterial...the rules does not say "if the gun is considered as safe", it says de-cocked... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Grumpy, If you are the R.O. and a competitor goes prone for a stage and places a loaded Glock on the ground. What would you do? That depends on whether he de-cocked it before placing it on the ground....you guys are missing the point...it says hammer down OR de-cocked...the only time a Glock is de-cocked is on an empty chamber after the trigger has been pulled...Semantics? Yes...but be that as it may, it is not de-cocked until that moment... Scenario, I am using a Glock I fire a stage with a prone position and have another shooting area I will shoot in after that position. I place the loaded Glock on the ground, get up from the prone position never getting further than 2 feet from the gun, the muzzle is pointed down range and I am behind the gun. What would you do? The gun is loaded, placed on the ground intentionally and facing down range. This, and all the other "hypothetical" questions here today, is obvious. You can place the Glock on the ground (or re-holster it), as long as you follow the rule book. The answer is, simply, "I wouldn't do anything other than what I usually do". You can do that. Let's get on with life. Ah, but what does the rule actually say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 (edited) If it's a DQ to put it on the ground while loaded, it's also a DQ to holster it during the COF. Hell, it's a DQ to holster it after Make Ready. x1000, if it is the ready condition for a holster or a loaded table start, its the ready condition for this thread glock, baretta with a decocker or 1911 safety engaged, in the holster at stand by, is the ready condition Once again, the rule book cant include absolutely every thing / scenario or we would have a set of encyclopaedias Edited May 20, 2016 by cnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Y'all keep this going about laying guns down. I think I'm actually about to learn something. It's entertaining, none the less. If you were the R.O. and a shooter intentionally placed a loaded Glock on the ground, muzzle downrange during the COF, what is your call if any? i don't make a call at all. a striker fired pistol is considered to be safe in that condition, just like a 1911 on safe or an external hammer gun with the hammer fully decocked. I love the rules, and I get that 8.1 doesn't really exactly cover every nuance of striker-fired guns, but I don't think it's sporting to try to twist and distort the rules in order to screw over shooters, even glock shooters. the same condition they are allowed to start in is fine for them to set the gun down in order to get up or whatever. Whether it is considered as safe is immaterial...the rules does not say "if the gun is considered as safe", it says de-cocked... decocked doesn't have any meaning when it comes to striker fired guns. they have no decocker and you can't manually lower the hammer. I know it's tempting to use clinton-esque range lawyering to screw shooters over, but since we've been starting glocks on stages for many years, there doesn't seem to be any room to even consider your tortured logic. it's safe AND totally within the rules to set your glock or other striker fired gun down in the accepted ready condition, regardless of what the definition of 'is' is, or whether anyone had sexual relations with that woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Right now, I see 2 ways it could go....DQ, or no DQ...I could support either way... DQ for grounding a loaded gun without it being fully de-cocked...NO DQ for the gun being in the ready condition (although I think the ready condition, by the rule, is not entirely accurate either (as the ready condition also says de-cocked). How can it be a DQ?The gun is placed on the ground in the ready position. It is not de-cocked.... It is in the ready position and follows 10.5.3.1, 10.5.3.2, 10.5.3.4. What rule says it is a DQ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Point is, USPSA considers the Glock to be a "double-action" gun (regardless of whatever semantics arguments one wants to try to apply to it), and Glock shooters have to apply the double-action rules, where they apply. You know it, we know it, and nobody is going to apply different rules to Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, and any other striker-action guns. Continuing to push semantics isn't going to change anything. If you choose to place a striker gun on the ground, simply follow the rules in the book, and you'll be okay. And a "DAO" gun CAN'T be cocked, by definition, so none of this applies to them. I agree...but how do you hammer/striker down, or even de-cock a Glock before placing it on the ground, other than unloading it and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber? What rule says a Glock or other striker fired gun has to be unloaded and de cocked for a competitor to place it on the ground? 8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols: 8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged. 8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked. Grumpy, Forget about putting the gun down part-way through the stage - this is more interesting and entirely consistent with your point: When you perform RO duties for a Production competitor with a Glock, and you give the MR command, I'd expect them to load the Glock (for a loaded gun start stage), chamber a round, holster (for a holster start stage), and wait for the command sequence of AYR? Standby, (beep). Do you dictate that they must comply with 8.1.2.2 by then unloading, pressing the trigger (to satisfy "de-cocked"), and then inserting the magazine (without chambering a round)? Do you start them from this position (empty chamber, "de-cocked") so that you and the competitor have achieved compliance with 8.1.2.2? No, I don't...and no one would either....but the point remains, that pistol is cocked...Technically, by the rules, you can't start a competitor using a striker fired gun on a loaded start... So you're (mostly) satisfied that the Glock's condition complies with 8.1.2.2 and will proceed with AYR? Standby, (beep)... But you're not satisfied that the same condition complies with 8.1.2.2 in terms of safely grounding a gun. It seems that either you should not start the Glock competitor when there is a round in the chamber...OR... you should allow a condition that you've recognized (by your action of starting the competitor) as compliant with 8.1.2.2 to be used for safely grounding a gun. At the MR command, the shooter is in possession of the gun, in his hand, and has absolute control over said gun (unless something untoward happens)...Once it is on the ground, it is no longer in his/her possession...who is to say that the shooter did not place the gun down over an obstruction, a piece of brass, a rock, a twig, a stick, and with the Vanek, DK, Johnny Glocks triggers out there, that said obstruction did not work it's way into the trigger guard as the shooter was reaching for the gun, standing back up. Said obstruction could easily push the trigger on these modified Glocks with just a slight movement forward of the gun as it was being picked up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Grumpy, If you are the R.O. and a competitor goes prone for a stage and places a loaded Glock on the ground. What would you do? That depends on whether he de-cocked it before placing it on the ground....you guys are missing the point...it says hammer down OR de-cocked...the only time a Glock is de-cocked is on an empty chamber after the trigger has been pulled...Semantics? Yes...but be that as it may, it is not de-cocked until that moment...Scenario,I am using a Glock I fire a stage with a prone position and have another shooting area I will shoot in after that position. I place the loaded Glock on the ground, get up from the prone position never getting further than 2 feet from the gun, the muzzle is pointed down range and I am behind the gun. What would you do? The gun is loaded, placed on the ground intentionally and facing down range. This, and all the other "hypothetical" questions here today, is obvious. You can place the Glock on the ground (or re-holster it), as long as you follow the rule book. The answer is, simply, "I wouldn't do anything other than what I usually do". You can do that. Let's get on with life. Ah, but what does the rule actually say? 10.5.3.1, 10.5.3.2, 10.5.3.4 says a Loaded Glock or other Striker fired gun can be placed on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Technically, a glock striker is not cocked in the ready condition, a XD, per the manufacturer definition is (or was) considered cocked. Back in my IDPA days, sthis is why the XD had to be shot in ESP per the definition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Right now, I see 2 ways it could go....DQ, or no DQ...I could support either way... DQ for grounding a loaded gun without it being fully de-cocked...NO DQ for the gun being in the ready condition (although I think the ready condition, by the rule, is not entirely accurate either (as the ready condition also says de-cocked). How can it be a DQ?The gun is placed on the ground in the ready position. It is not de-cocked.... It is in the ready position and follows 10.5.3.1, 10.5.3.2, 10.5.3.4. What rule says it is a DQ? Bret, read the entire rule....it is not de-cocked....the only time a Glock is de-cocked is when it's in holster, no mag....at that time you can pull the trigger and nothing happens...if you pull the trigger, and something happens, it was cocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Technically, a glock striker is not cocked in the ready condition, a XD, per the manufacturer definition is (or was) considered cocked. Back in my IDPA days, sthis is why the XD had to be shot in ESP per the definition True, the Glock is not FULLY cocked...but it is not de-cocked either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 (edited) At the MR command, the shooter is in possession of the gun, in his hand, and has absolute control over said gun (unless something untoward happens)...Once it is on the ground, it is no longer in his/her possession...who is to say that the shooter did not place the gun down over an obstruction, a piece of brass, a rock, a twig, a stick, and with the Vanek, DK, Johnny Glocks triggers out there, that said obstruction did not work it's way into the trigger guard as the shooter was reaching for the gun, standing back up. Said obstruction could easily push the trigger on these modified Glocks with just a slight movement forward of the gun as it was being picked up... wait, what? you're saying the ready condition for the start is different than the ready condition for placing a gun on the ground? Umm. yeah. Maybe not. If this is just a troll to wind people up, it's a pretty good one, but it probably belongs on doodie, not on a serious forum. Edited May 20, 2016 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 This is sounding more and more troll-like as we go on. We're far from the original question, and despite that fact that the glock question has been answered ... and answered ... and answered, one person seems to be trying to keep this thing alive. I feel so sorry for this poor horse. He's been beaten, abused, insulted, and beaten again. Someone should put him out of his misery. Or take him to a bar and give him a bunch of good stiff drinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Point is, USPSA considers the Glock to be a "double-action" gun (regardless of whatever semantics arguments one wants to try to apply to it), and Glock shooters have to apply the double-action rules, where they apply. You know it, we know it, and nobody is going to apply different rules to Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, and any other striker-action guns. Continuing to push semantics isn't going to change anything. If you choose to place a striker gun on the ground, simply follow the rules in the book, and you'll be okay. And a "DAO" gun CAN'T be cocked, by definition, so none of this applies to them. I agree...but how do you hammer/striker down, or even de-cock a Glock before placing it on the ground, other than unloading it and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber?What rule says a Glock or other striker fired gun has to be unloaded and de cocked for a competitor to place it on the ground? 8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:8.1.2.1 Single action chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged. 8.1.2.2 Double action chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked. Grumpy, Forget about putting the gun down part-way through the stage - this is more interesting and entirely consistent with your point: When you perform RO duties for a Production competitor with a Glock, and you give the MR command, I'd expect them to load the Glock (for a loaded gun start stage), chamber a round, holster (for a holster start stage), and wait for the command sequence of AYR? Standby, (beep). Do you dictate that they must comply with 8.1.2.2 by then unloading, pressing the trigger (to satisfy "de-cocked"), and then inserting the magazine (without chambering a round)? Do you start them from this position (empty chamber, "de-cocked") so that you and the competitor have achieved compliance with 8.1.2.2? No, I don't...and no one would either....but the point remains, that pistol is cocked...Technically, by the rules, you can't start a competitor using a striker fired gun on a loaded start... So you're (mostly) satisfied that the Glock's condition complies with 8.1.2.2 and will proceed with AYR? Standby, (beep)... But you're not satisfied that the same condition complies with 8.1.2.2 in terms of safely grounding a gun. It seems that either you should not start the Glock competitor when there is a round in the chamber...OR... you should allow a condition that you've recognized (by your action of starting the competitor) as compliant with 8.1.2.2 to be used for safely grounding a gun. At the MR command, the shooter is in possession of the gun, in his hand, and has absolute control over said gun (unless something untoward happens)...Once it is on the ground, it is no longer in his/her possession...who is to say that the shooter did not place the gun down over an obstruction, a piece of brass, a rock, a twig, a stick, and with the Vanek, DK, Johnny Glocks triggers out there, that said obstruction did not work it's way into the trigger guard as the shooter was reaching for the gun, standing back up. Said obstruction could easily push the trigger on these modified Glocks with just a slight movement forward of the gun as it was being picked up... If the gun has an AD when retrieving the gun, then the rules for AD would apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Point is, USPSA considers the Glock to be a "double-action" gun (regardless of whatever semantics arguments one wants to try to apply to it), and Glock shooters have to apply the double-action rules, where they apply. You know it, we know it, and nobody is going to apply different rules to Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, and any other striker-action guns. Continuing to push semantics isn't going to change anything. If you choose to place a striker gun on the ground, simply follow the rules in the book, and you'll be okay. And a "DAO" gun CAN'T be cocked, by definition, so none of this applies to them. I agree...but how do you hammer/striker down, or even de-cock a Glock before placing it on the ground, other than unloading it and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber? What rule says a Glock or other striker fired gun has to be unloaded and de cocked for a competitor to place it on the ground? 8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols: 8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged. 8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked. Grumpy, Forget about putting the gun down part-way through the stage - this is more interesting and entirely consistent with your point: When you perform RO duties for a Production competitor with a Glock, and you give the MR command, I'd expect them to load the Glock (for a loaded gun start stage), chamber a round, holster (for a holster start stage), and wait for the command sequence of AYR? Standby, (beep). Do you dictate that they must comply with 8.1.2.2 by then unloading, pressing the trigger (to satisfy "de-cocked"), and then inserting the magazine (without chambering a round)? Do you start them from this position (empty chamber, "de-cocked") so that you and the competitor have achieved compliance with 8.1.2.2? No, I don't...and no one would either....but the point remains, that pistol is cocked...Technically, by the rules, you can't start a competitor using a striker fired gun on a loaded start... So you're (mostly) satisfied that the Glock's condition complies with 8.1.2.2 and will proceed with AYR? Standby, (beep)... But you're not satisfied that the same condition complies with 8.1.2.2 in terms of safely grounding a gun. It seems that either you should not start the Glock competitor when there is a round in the chamber...OR... you should allow a condition that you've recognized (by your action of starting the competitor) as compliant with 8.1.2.2 to be used for safely grounding a gun. At the MR command, the shooter is in possession of the gun, in his hand, and has absolute control over said gun (unless something untoward happens)...Once it is on the ground, it is no longer in his/her possession...who is to say that the shooter did not place the gun down over an obstruction, a piece of brass, a rock, a twig, a stick, and with the Vanek, DK, Johnny Glocks triggers out there, that said obstruction did not work it's way into the trigger guard as the shooter was reaching for the gun, standing back up. Said obstruction could easily push the trigger on these modified Glocks with just a slight movement forward of the gun as it was being picked up... table start... , or any other start with the gun not in the holster... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 At the MR command, the shooter is in possession of the gun, in his hand, and has absolute control over said gun (unless something untoward happens)...Once it is on the ground, it is no longer in his/her possession...who is to say that the shooter did not place the gun down over an obstruction, a piece of brass, a rock, a twig, a stick, and with the Vanek, DK, Johnny Glocks triggers out there, that said obstruction did not work it's way into the trigger guard as the shooter was reaching for the gun, standing back up. Said obstruction could easily push the trigger on these modified Glocks with just a slight movement forward of the gun as it was being picked up... wait, what? you're saying the ready condition for the start is different than the ready condition for placing a gun on the ground? Umm. yeah. Maybe not.If this is just a troll to wind people up, it's a pretty good one, but it probably belongs on doodie, not on a serious forum. In production on a gun with external hammer it must be down before the start, after the start it can be placed on the ground or reholstered with the hammer back if the safety is applied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Point is, USPSA considers the Glock to be a "double-action" gun (regardless of whatever semantics arguments one wants to try to apply to it), and Glock shooters have to apply the double-action rules, where they apply. You know it, we know it, and nobody is going to apply different rules to Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, and any other striker-action guns. Continuing to push semantics isn't going to change anything. If you choose to place a striker gun on the ground, simply follow the rules in the book, and you'll be okay. And a "DAO" gun CAN'T be cocked, by definition, so none of this applies to them. I agree...but how do you hammer/striker down, or even de-cock a Glock before placing it on the ground, other than unloading it and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber?What rule says a Glock or other striker fired gun has to be unloaded and de cocked for a competitor to place it on the ground? 8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:8.1.2.1 Single action chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged. 8.1.2.2 Double action chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked. Grumpy, Forget about putting the gun down part-way through the stage - this is more interesting and entirely consistent with your point: When you perform RO duties for a Production competitor with a Glock, and you give the MR command, I'd expect them to load the Glock (for a loaded gun start stage), chamber a round, holster (for a holster start stage), and wait for the command sequence of AYR? Standby, (beep). Do you dictate that they must comply with 8.1.2.2 by then unloading, pressing the trigger (to satisfy "de-cocked"), and then inserting the magazine (without chambering a round)? Do you start them from this position (empty chamber, "de-cocked") so that you and the competitor have achieved compliance with 8.1.2.2? No, I don't...and no one would either....but the point remains, that pistol is cocked...Technically, by the rules, you can't start a competitor using a striker fired gun on a loaded start... So you're (mostly) satisfied that the Glock's condition complies with 8.1.2.2 and will proceed with AYR? Standby, (beep)... But you're not satisfied that the same condition complies with 8.1.2.2 in terms of safely grounding a gun. It seems that either you should not start the Glock competitor when there is a round in the chamber...OR... you should allow a condition that you've recognized (by your action of starting the competitor) as compliant with 8.1.2.2 to be used for safely grounding a gun. At the MR command, the shooter is in possession of the gun, in his hand, and has absolute control over said gun (unless something untoward happens)...Once it is on the ground, it is no longer in his/her possession...who is to say that the shooter did not place the gun down over an obstruction, a piece of brass, a rock, a twig, a stick, and with the Vanek, DK, Johnny Glocks triggers out there, that said obstruction did not work it's way into the trigger guard as the shooter was reaching for the gun, standing back up. Said obstruction could easily push the trigger on these modified Glocks with just a slight movement forward of the gun as it was being picked up... If the gun has an AD when retrieving the gun, then the rules for AD would apply. It would not have an AD if it had been de-cocked... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Point is, USPSA considers the Glock to be a "double-action" gun (regardless of whatever semantics arguments one wants to try to apply to it), and Glock shooters have to apply the double-action rules, where they apply. You know it, we know it, and nobody is going to apply different rules to Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, and any other striker-action guns. Continuing to push semantics isn't going to change anything. If you choose to place a striker gun on the ground, simply follow the rules in the book, and you'll be okay. And a "DAO" gun CAN'T be cocked, by definition, so none of this applies to them. I agree...but how do you hammer/striker down, or even de-cock a Glock before placing it on the ground, other than unloading it and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber? What rule says a Glock or other striker fired gun has to be unloaded and de cocked for a competitor to place it on the ground? 8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols: 8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged. 8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked. Grumpy, Forget about putting the gun down part-way through the stage - this is more interesting and entirely consistent with your point: When you perform RO duties for a Production competitor with a Glock, and you give the MR command, I'd expect them to load the Glock (for a loaded gun start stage), chamber a round, holster (for a holster start stage), and wait for the command sequence of AYR? Standby, (beep). Do you dictate that they must comply with 8.1.2.2 by then unloading, pressing the trigger (to satisfy "de-cocked"), and then inserting the magazine (without chambering a round)? Do you start them from this position (empty chamber, "de-cocked") so that you and the competitor have achieved compliance with 8.1.2.2? No, I don't...and no one would either....but the point remains, that pistol is cocked...Technically, by the rules, you can't start a competitor using a striker fired gun on a loaded start... So you're (mostly) satisfied that the Glock's condition complies with 8.1.2.2 and will proceed with AYR? Standby, (beep)... But you're not satisfied that the same condition complies with 8.1.2.2 in terms of safely grounding a gun. It seems that either you should not start the Glock competitor when there is a round in the chamber...OR... you should allow a condition that you've recognized (by your action of starting the competitor) as compliant with 8.1.2.2 to be used for safely grounding a gun. At the MR command, the shooter is in possession of the gun, in his hand, and has absolute control over said gun (unless something untoward happens)...Once it is on the ground, it is no longer in his/her possession...who is to say that the shooter did not place the gun down over an obstruction, a piece of brass, a rock, a twig, a stick, and with the Vanek, DK, Johnny Glocks triggers out there, that said obstruction did not work it's way into the trigger guard as the shooter was reaching for the gun, standing back up. Said obstruction could easily push the trigger on these modified Glocks with just a slight movement forward of the gun as it was being picked up... table start... , or any other start with the gun not in the holster... True, but then again, we are only talking about striker fired guns, so it still applies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 At the MR command, the shooter is in possession of the gun, in his hand, and has absolute control over said gun (unless something untoward happens)...Once it is on the ground, it is no longer in his/her possession...who is to say that the shooter did not place the gun down over an obstruction, a piece of brass, a rock, a twig, a stick, and with the Vanek, DK, Johnny Glocks triggers out there, that said obstruction did not work it's way into the trigger guard as the shooter was reaching for the gun, standing back up. Said obstruction could easily push the trigger on these modified Glocks with just a slight movement forward of the gun as it was being picked up... wait, what? you're saying the ready condition for the start is different than the ready condition for placing a gun on the ground? Umm. yeah. Maybe not.If this is just a troll to wind people up, it's a pretty good one, but it probably belongs on doodie, not on a serious forum. In production on a gun with external hammer it must be down before the start, after the start it can be placed on the ground or reholstered with the hammer back if the safety is applied. For a selective action pistol, yes...not for a Glock...Glocks are not selective action...“Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Grumpy, If you are the R.O. and a competitor goes prone for a stage and places a loaded Glock on the ground. What would you do? That depends on whether he de-cocked it before placing it on the ground....you guys are missing the point...it says hammer down OR de-cocked...the only time a Glock is de-cocked is on an empty chamber after the trigger has been pulled...Semantics? Yes...but be that as it may, it is not de-cocked until that moment... Not sure if you're trolling with all this, but the allowed gun conditions for placing a gun on the ground are the same for holstering at make ready. Are you implying we can't holster a Glock with a round in the chamber? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Grumpy, Per the rules a Glock or other striker fired gun can be placed on the ground in the MR condition. If you have a rule saying it can't be, I would like to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Grumpy, If you are the R.O. and a competitor goes prone for a stage and places a loaded Glock on the ground. What would you do? That depends on whether he de-cocked it before placing it on the ground....you guys are missing the point...it says hammer down OR de-cocked...the only time a Glock is de-cocked is on an empty chamber after the trigger has been pulled...Semantics? Yes...but be that as it may, it is not de-cocked until that moment... The pistol is NOT cocked on a striker fired guns...what it is is that the striker is now resting on the trigger bar ready to be pulled as in DA condition...pulling the trigger does not release the firing pin from a cocked position...pulling the trigger pulls the striker back to a point which the trigger bar then releases the striker...completely different than a SA condition. So it's not true that the only time a Clock is de-cocked is on an empty chamber... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Grumpy, If you are the R.O. and a competitor goes prone for a stage and places a loaded Glock on the ground. What would you do? That depends on whether he de-cocked it before placing it on the ground....you guys are missing the point...it says hammer down OR de-cocked...the only time a Glock is de-cocked is on an empty chamber after the trigger has been pulled...Semantics? Yes...but be that as it may, it is not de-cocked until that moment... The pistol is NOT cocked on a striker fired guns...what it is is that the striker is now resting on the trigger bar ready to be pulled as in DA condition...pulling the trigger does not release the firing pin from a cocked position...pulling the trigger pulls the striker back to a point which the trigger bar then releases the striker...completely different than a SA condition. So it's not true that the only time a Clock is de-cocked is on an empty chamber... Can you fire a Glock once the trigger has been pulled, without resetting the striker? Once you reset the striker, it is partially cocked, IE, the trigger does not move it very much rearward, but move it does, and since the trigger does not move the striker the full rearward movement with a pull (the slide moves the striker rearward with the cycling of the gun), then that striker is pre-loaded...to 70% or whatever....partially cocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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