Non open shooter question

[mont1120]

After reading the USPSA report on the Nationals Open competition, it is noted 99% of the shooters use steel guns instead of he ol plastic models. As a non open shooter I'd thought to ask why the steel is so superior.

It seems in other divisions the plastic guns hold their own where allowed. Can the shooters explain the reasons behind the superiority of the steel frames?

[splashdown]

I used to shoot Open with an STI and now several years later I'm getting back into it with a Glock. Using my same old pet load doesn't work as well in the glock. The recoil is stout, presumably because there is less static mass to tame the gun. Back to the drawing board for me.

[Garmil]

I've had metal and plastic open guns. To me the plastic guns hit much harder in the hand. My glock gave a sting in my trigger finger is the best way I can describe it. Steel feels much better to me.

[MadBomber]

Most people shooting open prefer a single action trigger over a production style trigger. My opinion, A Glock trigger job will never touch a 1911/2011 trigger job.

[Sarge]

Shooting an open Glock is like a block of TNT going off compared to a heavy steel gun.

And most play hell getting a Plastic gun to run 100% in Open

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Having steel on steel is much better for longevity and safer. Having metal tangs inserted into a plastic frame with the high pressures of shooting an open pistol just does not seem like a great idea to me. The recoil is another thing also in a steel framed pistol the steel takes some of the shock out of it because of the weight and density of the steel. Lastly a custom steel gun just looks cooler. Thanks, Eric

[LilBunniFuFu]

Plastic is much more violent in open running 9 major. If you build a .40 then it's bearable but lose to capacity.

[Shadyscott999]

simple. Plastic Open guns can't be made to work. When Glock couldn't get KC's to run 100% it should be really telling to anyone considering a plastic Open gun.

[zzt]

Steel guns came first. That's why there are so many of them. If you want to run a 2lb or lower trigger, I don't think you have a choice.

I'll also say it is possible to set up a polymer gun to shoot flat and softly (for an Open gun). I watched one of the S&W Team shooters shooting Open with his M&P Pro (9mm Major). His muzzle did not rise one iota when firing. He said he gripped it hard, but not with a death grip. He did a trigger job on it, and I must say it was the best trigger pull on any poly pistol I felt. It was superb. He also added a lot of weight to soak up recoil. A Tungsten guide rod and a big brass magwell are two of the things I remember him adding. He also had a custom comp.

So it is possible to set up a poly pistol to shoot Open so that it is not violent. Typically, I see people add a slide mounted dot, and a threaded barrel with an Aluminum comp and call it an Open pistol. That is never going to be pleasant to shoot, as one of my friends recently found out. As several on these forums have previously stated, you cannot do Open on the cheap.

[Reshoot]

I don't think it is so much the material composition of the gun, but the type of action. You see, "plastic" guns are, for the most part, striker fired.

You will never make a striker fired gun run like a hammer fired gun. I have never heard of anyone getting a striker fired trigger below 2 pounds. Then there is that striker spring, always working against the recoil spring. You can only go so light with that recoil spring before the striker spring keeps the gun from going into full battery. If the striker spring holds the slide back even just a few thousands of an inch, you will get light primer strikes.

It is just plain maddening trying to make a striker fired open gun run 100%. I have been shooting a 40 caliber Springfield XDm open gun for 5 years now (2.25# trigger pull). Oh, I shoot matches where the gun runs 100%, for the entire match. Then there is last Sunday's match, where the slide did not fully cycle and I had to clear a round on stage 1. The remaining stages, no issues. I never know from one match to the next!

That dot always leaves the window for a fraction of a second, with every trigger pull. For a 67 year old C shooter that is not an issue, but for a fast trigger finger a good shooter would be waiting for the dot to return. A gun like mine will never take you to a master level.

[waynes_world_45]

Eric hit the nail on the head

[Gooldylocks]

I shoot a 2011 now, but my G17 shot just as or more soft than my 2011. And it ran with no issues, unlike my 2011. Frankly, part of me is annoyed that I switched.

The trigger will never be as good as a good SAO. The frame longevity, probably not as long (though regular glocks run like 200k so I don't know, maybe it would be fine). But I think the whole plastic opens guns suck thing isn't necessarily true. It certainly won't keep anyone from making M or GM.

[ickus]

This is my 4th year shooting 3 or 4 matches a month with the Glock 34 Open 9mm Major and a Steel Challenge Gun..

Both totally built by me and I've learned how to make them run.. They're just as reliable as the $4,500 Gun's I shoot against

[Racinready300ex]

I ran a open glock last season, it was fun. The gun ran for the most part, I was able to make Master and won 18-20 local matches with it. But, I never got through a major with out a malfunction. I now have a 2011, this gun is with out a doubt is better/easier to shoot. Time will tell if it ends up being more reliable. I've put 1000 rounds through with any problems so far.

[BoyGlock]

Open Glock guns can be as reliable as tuned open 2011s. Duarability-wise I havent worn out a glock and I shot mostly 9maj with it, but if parts can fail its cheap and mostly DIY installations, very unlike 2011s. I still have my Open Glock 17 inspite of my trove of 2011s.

Edited February 27, 2016 by BoyGlock

[BoyGlock]

The only issue that made me migrate to 2011s is the capability of Glock triggers to be actuated with the chamber a bit not locked. Combine that with the trigger pull working against a light recoil spring holding it in battery and its a scary scenario though I havent experienced any out of battery detonation in more than 10k 9maj rounds. I think my prevention to this was heavier recoil spring (vs trigger) at least 11# and correctly sized shells.

[mont1120]

Thanks for the replies guys. They are very informative. It explains a lot, especially when Glock did seem to drop out of the competition. I'm not sure if I will ever move to Open, I'm wondering about the straight back recoil. Is it harder on the wrist then say major PF .40's being run in Limited? I can tell 9 Major of the .38 super is the round to use, but that is so it ruins the comp well.

Is there any way to compare the recoil differences? Years and years of shooting are gonna wear out the hands.

[Garmil]

40 limited major is definitely harder on the wrist than open major in my opinion.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Garmil

[Sarge]

40 limited major is definitely harder on the wrist than open major in my opinion.

Yep. The comps do a good job of mitigating recoil.

[zzt]

m1120, maybe this will help. I shoot Limited with 40sw using 180gr bullets loaded to 172PF. I feel the recoil. It doesn't hurt, but I know it is there. I also have a 40sw Open top end for the pistol. The other day I decided to try a new powder, HS-6. So I loaded 25 rounds using 8.2gr and 25 using 8.7grs (max load) under a 155gr bullet.

I shot the 8.2gr load first and thought, oh crap, the manuals must be wrong. It was much quieter and softer than my previous Open load. I figured it was way down in the Minor range, for sure. Then I fired the 8.7gr load. It was much hotter, but not as hard on the hands as my old load, nor my Limited load. So yesterday I brought the chrono to the range and tested both loads. Much to my astonishment, the 8.2gr load was 171PF. It was really soft. What really surprised me was the 8.7 load. 188PF! Yet it was still softer on the hands than my plain old Limited load. Go figure.

[splashdown]

zzt, you should post your data in the 40 Open thread.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=77956&page=15