Why is this necessary?

[Strick]

California

Colorado

New York

New Jersey

Massachusetts

Not sure about others.

And at the sectionals, state, and area matches that encompass those areas there is still no L10 participation. That is the funny part.

[Nik Habicht]

National Championships are seldom a stand alone (one division) venture. More often they are Open and xxxxx or Limited and yyyyy. The Single Stack and Revolver Nationals are stand alone, but they are ran by a host facility at no cost to USPSA.

So combining Limited, L-10, Production cost nothing or very little not counting the increased match entry fees from the add on division.

I would guess Open and CO would work nicely.

This. I don't think L10 or any other division costs us anything at the local, sectional, state, area or National level, as long as its combined with another division. Want to know what odes have a cost? Multiple Nationals. Do they also give us something? Sure -- but balancing that tradeoff is why the BOD has final approval over Nationals funding now, IIRC.

SS -- run by an outside organization in cooperation with USPSA. Always in Barry. Don't think this costs USPSA a lot.

Revolver -- held in conjunction with SS (one day on the same weekend) in recent years. Seems a good fit from the outside looking in.

That leaves the remaining handgun divisions and Multi-gun. If we're worried about staff burnout, then maybe we alternate between two additional back to back Nationals, and one big combined match. Both have advantages and disadvantages, but as long as you're holding a Nats, allowing competitors to enter from another division doesn't cost USPSA anything....

[Nik Habicht]

So how many states have mag restriction laws and do any not have grandfather clauses?

New Jersey

Hawaii

At a bare minimum those two.....

[Nik Habicht]

Since I don't want to quote pskys2's entire post let me just say that I don't think Open is so popular anymore that we have to worry about L10 stealing slots that would go to Open competitors if only L10 weren't allowed to enter the match....

I'm guessing that L10 helps to make that Nationals financially successful.

[Nik Habicht]

There have been some good points made about why L10 is still probably a division even though from a national perspective it doesn't have the same participation level as open, limited & production. I'm assuming that most won't argue that on a national relative basis SS, L10 & Revo have a pretty small participation level ... So if true here's my next question:

While I'm starting to understand the relative value at the local level I have a real concern is about the pressure these divisions put on the national organization. What I'm talking about is specifically the national championships. I think that no one (even on this thread) would argue that the national championships are huge undertakings for an all-volunteer sport. Given the limited resources avialable and the cost & effort to put on a championship maybe we should consider not having the championship for these "low participation" divsions?

This would allow shooters at the local & regional level to continue to shoot their division but relieve a lot of pressure at the national level which could then be redirected to addressing & fixing issues within USPSA that DO affect all divisions & all shooters. (God knows we do have a few of those ...)

let's face it. How many of the rank & file shoot these particular championships? When in the past the matches were held back-to-back a lot of the top shooters just hung around to shoot it since they were already there but putting it on it's own & the numbers drop significantly ...

Over the last 10-15 years or so we in this country seem to spend a lot of time listening to the vocal minority which leads to all manner of silly thing like 'special interest groups' & 'political correctness', etc. I for one have always been interested in focusing on what the 95% want to do. So in the case of USPSA we can leave the so called low particiaption divisions alone at the local level but at the national level we would focus our efforts on the high particiaption divisions where most of our membership lives ... At least WRT national championships ..... (Can't wait to see the comments about this ...)

Single Stack never seems to approach the local/state/area levels of the top 3, BUT the SS Division and Nationals is a result of the popularity of a single type of match. The Single Stack Classic regularly drew more competitors than any USPSA Nationals combining Divisions.

Revolver when done stand alone, such as the Memphis Charity Classic in the past, drew much larger numbers than any Revolver Nationals when it was combined with other Divisions. And when held as a stand alone Nationals, granted with the draw of a much larger Nationals leading in to it, the numbers have been even larger yet. But the lower matches still struggle.

The separate L10 Championships show good participation when combined with an Optics Division. And doing that doesn't add to costs. An argument could be made that it pulls Slots from the Open, or more popular, Division, but that is the only detriment.

While your argument to eliminate Divisions is one that should be reviewed, it would seem it's not a simple cut and dried issue. If you take that argument to it's extreme it would justify having USPSA go back to just one Division, where all competed heads up.

I remember those days and they were fun, but it actually was more restrictive than having multiple divisions. At the National Level the format of the SS/Rev and probably, it will be tested this year, Production/CO(Prov) seems to be a successful recipe with minimum extra costs to the organization. Combining something like Open/L10 in the same format also seems a beneficial format.

3 of those Division and Open/Limited are valid Divisions or good for the overall sport. Limited 10 is the only one that has a firearm type that can be used successfully in another Division, and gear that can be used in another Division. The magazines will be useless in any other Division though.

It would seem that the costs can be mitigated at the National Level, at the local level it is quite the moot point unless there are trophies/awards/prizes awarded. So that leaves the State/Sectional and Area Matches where it is a cost. I don't see where that has been a huge issue for match organizers though.

What needs to be discussed is the validity of a Division and that's not determined by it's popularity at a local or national match. The questions should be:

Does the Division serve a need, whether it be firearm type, sighting system, etc...?

Can the firearm type be reasonably competitive in another Division? Compensators and Optics are definite game changers.

Is there a need/desire to recognize different power factors?

Other questions?

Wow I think I'm rambling on!

Just for the sake of discussion, instead of looking for reasons to kill a division, what if we look at ways to grow them?

If we changed the round restriction to 15 in Production, those that love the 10 round rule might go to L10, and those that don't like the 10 round rule in production would be happier with a 15 round rule.

I suspect MOST shooting production simply don't load their mags to capacity, no need to buy new gear for most shooters, the 10 round guys get their 10 round division... More people happy?

Or, seeing that production is already a 10 round limit, could you grow L10 by making it L15?

Just thinking out loud here.

I just see a desire (not just mine) for a class that can use more of a gun's standard capacity, without needing to buy extended mags (but perhaps allowing those that can't hit 15 to use them?) It seems L10 answers the same need that Production does... losing out on members because of it.

I know I for one would be much more tempted by "L15" than L 10. Maybe I'm the only one that would, maybe not.

Again, I'm not pushing for anything. Not trying to rock the boat, just looking at things a different way. (Growing vs killing divisions)

What else could be done to L10 to attract more shooters?

Right -- because 9 mm guns will be competitive in L10 at minor scoring......

L15 -- ok, but now you're excluding a bunch of currently legal guns by making them non-competitive hardware.....

The options may not be perfect but they're fairly good as is.....

[OPENB]

I've had new shooters show up with a new Glock,Sig, M&P or whatever and ask what division they fit in. I tell them production but they can only load 10rds. "But it holds 17" they say. Well, load it full, but you'll be scored minor. I get the confused look from them. "What division is made for my new Glock 17 & mags just as it came from the gunshop?" None of them.

[Nimitz]

So how many states have mag restriction laws and do any not have grandfather clauses?

New Jersey

Hawaii

At a bare minimum those two.....

So in Jersey and Hawaii there is no L10, right? It's open 10, limited 10 + the rest ...

[Nik Habicht]

So how many states have mag restriction laws and do any not have grandfather clauses?

New Jersey

Hawaii

At a bare minimum those two.....

So in Jersey and Hawaii there is no L10, right? It's open 10, limited 10 + the rest ...

No. In Hawaii to the best of my understanding, every division is limited to 10 rounds max, with SS and Revolver being the obvious exceptions....

In New Jersey, Open and Limited are played with 15 round limits. Why not up the Production limit to 15? Because most manufacturers do not make 15 rounds mags for their >15 cap guns; they do typically make 10 rounds mags for the number of states where tenrounders are all that's legal to currently sell (NY, CT, and MA for non-grandfathered mags come to mind), or in some cases to legally possess (Hawaii).

[mont1120]

I thought I might add, bull barrel configuration which is common in L10 are not allowed in single stack. The ease spoken of to move to another division is not quite as smooth as some mention. Can't shoot your 2011 in single stack. Many L10 pistols would he useless in limited, and most are not allowed in Production.

We are the odd balls out it would seem. As far as slot distribution I think that is up to each region on how many go from each division.

As I stated in a different thread on L10, I'm going black powder revolver or a loud as hell .357 SIG in open......

[warpspeed]

You honestly don't understand why L10 still exists?

Let me enlighten you ... Because the BoD has never deleted a division in the history of the USPSA.

Your lack of understanding of the political climate in places other than the sunshine state so try and steer clear of making assumptions how the local shooters adapt. It is not a conversation we have in polite company.

Whomever it was that said "L10 was created to solve a problem that no longer exists" doesn't understand how the rule of law works in the our great country and should probably not be considered prominent in any thing. The BoD doesn't want to delete it and then be faced with bringing it back. It is easier to just let it bump along. I think the reason we keep L-10 around is so that no one who has invested money in a pistol will feel like they have been abandoned.

You just don't get this division? Fortunately you don't need to. Shoot what you like and let the rest of the shooters shoot what they like.

[OPENB]

Not true. We used to have modified, it's gone now in USPSA. It still exists in IPSC.

[Onepocket]

That's funny. Warpspeed sounds like you work for the CIA.

[ChuckS]

Not true. We used to have modified, it's gone now in USPSA. It still exists in IPSC.

Actually, USPSA never had a modified division. And, it does not exist in IPSC anymore.

Edited January 25, 2016 by ChuckS

[jhgtyre]

I hid some posts that added nothing to this thread. That kind of bickering does not belong here. Lets try to keep this semi on track and keep the personal stuff out of it.

Larry Drake
The Moderating Team

[Chills1994]

I didn't read all three pages of this thread.

Here it is January 2016. Obviously, 2015 is closed and on the books.

Surely, somebody from HQ could tell us the end of year totals for the number of classifier scores/fees submitted for:

Open

Limited

Limited 10

Single Stack

Production

Revolver

And I guess now, Carry Optics.

I don't see how keeping L-10 around hurts USPSA.

Thomas Jefferson had a saying that went something like, "Does it break my leg or pick my pocket?"

[OPENB]

Not true. We used to have modified, it's gone now in USPSA. It still exists in IPSC.

Actually, USPSA never had a modified division. And, it does not exist in IPSC anymore.

I was thinking we had modified back in the early 90s. Never saw anyone shooting it, so didn't miss it.

[motosapiens]

L10 makes sense to me, for 1911 owners that want to use 10 round mags, and for LE folks that carry a 40 or 45 on duty and want to use that gun or something similar. It's a bit silly to have a national championship for it, but whatever. I shot L10 nats once. It was fun.

What I don't understand is open. that division makes no sense. the guns are not anything close to 'practical', and they hurt my ears.

[zzt]

Well, I did read all three pages. I must say there have been some thoughtful responses. I won't opine on what you could/should do at nationals or even major matches, because I'll never be going to one. I went back and added up the total number of shooters in each Division for the six shoots a local club held in 2015.

Production had the most shooters with 133. I must say there are some seriously, seriously good Productions shooters at these matches, including a GM and several Ms. I think this division has the most level playing field and lets beginners compete with relatively inexpensive guns and gear.

Limited was the next most popular with 108 shooters. This is where I shoot, because I'm a single action snob and I like good triggers. The race gear is fun too.

SS was next with 59 shooters. If I had known this existed, I may have started shooting in it earlier. Matches around me are designed with SS shooters in mind. With 13% of the total shooters shooting SS, I'd say it was popular. Some of these guys are downright amazing.

Open had 48 shooters. It was a mix of Major and Minor. Some of the Minor shooters will probably move to CO, because the only reason they are in Open is they use red dots. I'm considering moving to Open myself this year, because my eyesight is getting worse. I may even use a comp.

L10 was next with 13. Okay, only 3.5%, but I would not eliminate it. I love my 1911s. Had I not been told I could shoot in this Div with 10 round mags, but my score would not count, this is where I would shoot. My 1911s are not legal for SS (or at least they didn't used to be). The shooters are shooting guns that are not legal in P or SS, so there is no where else for them to go.

There were 6 revolver shooters. I'll admit I don't get this division. They take forever to finish a course, but they enjoy themselves.

Personally, I think Carry Optics is a good idea, simply because old eyes can compete without spending much more than a P shooter would.

[bockerSV]

I live in NY, every division is limited to 10 rounds. I feel like one of the draws for leaving the state to shoot matches, other than just shooting fun matches, is to be able to get out the drill and lose the rivets in your magazines so you can fill them all the way up. Very rare that the guys I shoot with, that shoot limited, choose to shoot limited 10 when they don't have to.

[bockerSV]

And furthermore, these arguments for keeping the division could easily translate to open division also. Why not make an open 10 division so guys from my state Arent at a disadvantage when we travel out of state? Locally there are a ton of open shooters.

[Nimitz]

You honestly don't understand why L10 still exists?

Yep ... I lived my entire competition shooting career in a state where no one shoots L10 so why would I ...?

Let me enlighten you ... Because the BoD has never deleted a division in the history of the USPSA.

Your lack of understanding of the political climate in places other than the sunshine state so try and steer clear of making assumptions how the local shooters adapt. It is not a conversation we have in polite company.

Don't think I ever made any assumptions about how local shooters adapt and even if I have they are assumptions specifically because I don't happen to know the facts ...

Whomever it was that said "L10 was created to solve a problem that no longer exists" doesn't understand how the rule of law works in the our great country and should probably not be considered prominent in any thing. The BoD doesn't want to delete it and then be faced with bringing it back. It is easier to just let it bump along. I think the reason we keep L-10 around is so that no one who has invested money in a pistol will feel like they have been abandoned.

I'd be very careful about the assumptions YOU just made WRT the person who said these statements ... And I can assure you he is one of the most prominent people in USPSA at the moment ....

You just don't get this division? Fortunately you don't need to. Shoot what you like and let the rest of the shooters shoot what they like.

(Sorry for burying my above responses in the quoted post but I can't cut & paste ...)

How exactly do you know what I need? If you'll read my OP or any subsequent post I've made I have specifically never provided my personal oponion about this division for the very reason of trying to avoid exactly what you ar doing .... Getting all caught up in a debate about deleting it.

I will say this, there do seem to be quite a few very sensitive and quick to judge & condemn types on this forum when it comes to things like L10, SS & Revo divisions ... And now of course CO & PCC ...

Edited January 26, 2016 by Nimitz

[NickBlasta]

And furthermore, these arguments for keeping the division could easily translate to open division also. Why not make an open 10 division so guys from my state Arent at a disadvantage when we travel out of state? Locally there are a ton of open shooters.

Only Open shooters can afford a rivet gun and a cordless drill.

[JAB]

PatJones Now that's funny

Edited January 27, 2016 by JAB

[SWprotected]

L10 is a division with low participation but it does not cause any particular problem that I can see for anyone. In states like Florida or any other state that does not have a capacity restriction it is going to have almost no participation. I know a few guys who shoot it they use a 1911 with 10rd. mags. I like having the division as it gives me a place to use my M&P 45 if I wanted and not be at a disadvantage to the guys in production. I guess I see it as just another option we can choose or not, so why would we eliminate it?

[cas]

I always fall back to MY question.... Why do you, in Florida, care that people in NY are shooting Limited-10? Why does it bother you? How does it effect you? Most people claim it's watering down the competition having too many divisions. Their argument usually includes some kind of fact that their local match only had two L10 shooters last month. So the other divisions are being water down by two whole shooters? Good heavens no!

Around here Production and L-10 trade spots as the division with the most shooters. Besides that, it works well as a catch all and a spot for new shooters. A place to put the new guys with the Glock 21s and the SIG P220. A place for the 10 round mag 1911's to play. My L-10 gun is a Tanfoglio Limited in .45 Acp. It holds 10 rounds, I can shoot it in and out of state in L-10 but in no other divisions.

People like to point to the L-10 Nationals as a sign that it needs to go. Maybe the L-10 Nationals need to go, I don't think there'd be too much crying over that. Or maybe hold a stand alone L-10 Nationals in a ban state to get participation up. Lord knows we can't have any decent large matches in NY anymore.

Edited January 31, 2016 by cas