Shotgun tube restrictions

[toothandnail]

Limit the length to 26" (+/- .5") and capacity to whatever fits in that length. Then there is no confusion on what the capacity limits are, and no easy method to cheat.

If there is only a max tube length rule, what about mini shells?

I would not be opposed ( I shoot open) for the above stated reasons. I am also the MD of a major match ,MO3GC

ETA; guess I didn't read far enough before replying, I always wondered why the rifle could have 100 round mags and pistol was limited in everything but Open(in most matches)

Edited January 17, 2016 by toothandnail

[Bryan 45]

My guess as to why the rifle has not seen capacity or size of magazine limits is based on product availability. Just like we're seeing with shotguns over the last couple of years.

Until about 6 years ago when Nordic came out with their 18 round extension, there weren't any good >30 round options for the AR platform. Yes, there was the BETA mag, but very few shooters used them due to reliability issues. There were a few guys across the US that were good enough with a welder to tack weld 2 30 round mag bodies together (I don't know what they did for springs) that would run most of the time.

Then Nordic came out with their great extension for Pmags. And today we have many options for 30+ magazines. But, other than monopodding, it's a rare stage that has enough targets that a shooter needs more than 30 rounds, so the larger magazines are not that big of a benefit. Nor, based on their size in relation to the overall size of a rifle, are they so large that they limit the practicality of the weapon.

[kurtm]

Sterling 40 round magazines (made for the AR-18, but also fit and functioned perfectly in the AR-15 platform) were readily available in the 80,s and 90,s. Thermould made an expandable magazine that would hold 40 rounds and they were reliable and cheap.

[racknrider]

How about making a DQ/DNF situation? If you shoot in the 8+1 division, your tube, no matter the length can only hold 8 rounds of 2 3/4" shells (minis not allowed). During the match the SO/RO will randomly ensure that each gun meets the requirements. If you fail, you're done. This way people could just plug their tubes instead of needing different equipment.

[Paul Winters]

That is the Tac Ops rule from the Doublestar Blueridge 3 Gun held a Rockcastle. It requires the tube not be able to hold more than 8 rounds. If a 9th round goes in, the shooter is automatically put in the Open division. So no matter what length tube that is run, it needs to be plugged to only hold 8. Andy Horner and crew have quite a few well thought out rules. Being a 1911 shooter, I love the idea that a hot gun with the manual safety off can still be considered safe if the grip safetyis functional. But that is another topic.

Paul : -)#

[StealthyBlagga]

In the 2015 IMA-SMM3G rules we created a new division - Stealth Division - in which we limit the magazine tube length, as measured from the front of the receiver to the end of the tube. There is no capacity restriction. The result is a real-world practical overall gun length and no enforcement problems.

Edited January 18, 2016 by StealthyBlagga

[Rookie]

From the original post... "The only way to be certain that a competitor is not overfilling his shotgun would be to have every shotgun preloaded under the watchful eye of an RO."

At what matches and under what rulesets is it acceptable to load/preload without direct RO supervision and direction? I have not been to any of these matches!

As an RM, I view having a (shotgun) magazine length restriction as just one more thing that we have to be prepared to check and to have procedures that assure that it is done consistently. RO's that are assigned to oversee pre-loading have the responsibility to assure that the competitor meets the division requirement for rounds in the magazine. Unless a match allows the competitors to come to the line with a loaded shotgun that has not been directed and supervised by an RO... I don't see round limitations as a problem.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Rookie

[Stlhead]

Rookie, specificly what matches observe the preload? The ones I go to do not ever have a RO observing the pre-load. The only match I can ever remember being observed was at USPA multi gun nationals, and then I don't think it was that consistent, and certainly not by anyone who was aware of the division I was shooting, or that counted my shells. Things in USPSA could be different now, I have not shot a USPSA match in 4 or 5 years so I wouldn't know.

[striped1]

This seems like a solution in search of a problem. Doesn't the 8+1 start level the playing field no matter how long the tube?

[usmc1094]

This seems like a solution in search of a problem. Doesn't the 8+1 start level the playing field no matter how long the tube?

They are saying people cheat.

[thermobollocks]

It's the same thing as Production mag capacities. If the RO counts to 12 without a reload (or 11 in the case of a table start), welcome to Open. It doesn't have to be more difficult than that.

[Stlhead]

It's the same thing as Production mag capacities. If the RO counts to 12 without a reload (or 11 in the case of a table start), welcome to Open. It doesn't have to be more difficult than that.

Unfortunately it is not nearly that simple. In pistol you are only allowed 10 in each and every magazine. With a shotgun you have a fixed magazine and currently you are allowed to have as large of a magazine as you like and are free to put in as many shells as you like after the buzzer. Just counting the number of shots between reloads does not work unless the RO can be certain of how many shells where loaded, and when, plus how many are left in the gun after the run, far more complicated than just counting the number of rounds fired between reloads.

[ziebart]

Except with a pistol the magazine is removed from the gun during a reload. With shotguns they are topped off so the RO can't simply start their count over.

On the issues of DQs for gun falling out of buckets, any length restriction would have to apply to open as well since their guns go in the same buckets.

Beat to the punch.

Edited January 18, 2016 by ziebart

[thermobollocks]

Then if you're truly concerned, you can start subtracting as well as adding.

[Stlhead]

Then if you're truly concerned, you can start subtracting as well as adding.

So is it the job of the RO to do all of this extra counting? Who can tell if the shooter put in 3 or 4 shells, how many where dropped? I certainly would not be able to do an acceptable job, I would be forced to make them load the shotgun at the line so I would not have to worry about counting.

[Rookie]

Rookie, specificly what matches observe the preload? The ones I go to do not ever have a RO observing the pre-load. The only match I can ever remember being observed was at USPA multi gun nationals, and then I don't think it was that consistent, and certainly not by anyone who was aware of the division I was shooting, or that counted my shells. Things in USPSA could be different now, I have not shot a USPSA match in 4 or 5 years so I wouldn't know.

Some recently attended matches where Pre-loading was directed by a match official include: 2015 SMM3G, 2015 USPSA MG Nationals, 2015 He-Man Nationals, 2015 RM3G... I have been to other matches/locations where the pre-loading policy was a tad more relaxed and it was basically left to the integrity of the shooter and the counting ability of the RO to manage compliance. From my perspective it is not difficult to monitor round count compliance for the applicable divisions at a supervised pre-loading station.

I also attend some monthly matches where competitors take turns watching the preloading activity and most, if not all, are paying attention to the number of rounds placed in the magazine. At the Rio Salado monthly matches pre-loading is conducted in a specified shotgun pre-loading area (horizontally placed barrel on a stand) with a posted pre-loading policy sign.

[Dan Sierpina]

The RO counting shells fired after the beep isn't fool proof either. Last year at He Man, on the birdshot stage, I engaged the first array, then before I even started to move I had added 4 shells and topped off my tube (10 round), proceeded to the next array with a Texas star, which I took and extra shot or two at, with no loading, since I already had, then continued the course. At the end, the RO stated that I had fired more than 9 shots before loading and I was going to Open. Now, he was standing behind me when I loaded my first 4. I load weak hand and don't put the shotgun over my shoulder. He never saw me add the shells after the timer sounded. I had even told a squad mate of my intention to load that way.

Yes, I loaded standing, but, there was no problem of tripping on any of the unevenness of the area that the stage was set up on. I'm not very fast anyway.

[TonytheTiger]

RO's counting shots vs. targets vs. division capacity vs. possible misses is beyond stupid. And it would be a huge distraction from their main priority, that being safety. I've seen some big shotgun stages with small quantities of targets per array and lots of loading while traversing the stage. It would be extremely difficult for an RO to do the math on the fly and if the shooter never ran dry the RO would have to count the shells coming out at ULSC and do the math against the shots fired through the whole stage. My head hurts thinking about it.

Edited January 19, 2016 by TonytheTiger

[Rookie]

The RO counting shells fired after the beep isn't fool proof either. Last year at He Man, on the birdshot stage, I engaged the first array, then before I even started to move I had added 4 shells and topped off my tube (10 round), proceeded to the next array with a Texas star, which I took and extra shot or two at, with no loading, since I already had, then continued the course. At the end, the RO stated that I had fired more than 9 shots before loading and I was going to Open. Now, he was standing behind me when I loaded my first 4. I load weak hand and don't put the shotgun over my shoulder. He never saw me add the shells after the timer sounded. I had even told a squad mate of my intention to load that way.

Yes, I loaded standing, but, there was no problem of tripping on any of the unevenness of the area that the stage was set up on. I'm not very fast anyway.

Where in the He-Man rules does it state that HM division competitors cannot fire more than 9 rounds (shotgun) without reloading?

[Benelli Chick]

The RO counting shells fired after the beep isn't fool proof either. Last year at He Man, on the birdshot stage, I engaged the first array, then before I even started to move I had added 4 shells and topped off my tube (10 round), proceeded to the next array with a Texas star, which I took and extra shot or two at, with no loading, since I already had, then continued the course. At the end, the RO stated that I had fired more than 9 shots before loading and I was going to Open. Now, he was standing behind me when I loaded my first 4. I load weak hand and don't put the shotgun over my shoulder. He never saw me add the shells after the timer sounded. I had even told a squad mate of my intention to load that way.

Yes, I loaded standing, but, there was no problem of tripping on any of the unevenness of the area that the stage was set up on. I'm not very fast anyway.

He believed you and it all worked out in the end, didn't it?? I'm seriously asking because I didn't hear about this one!

I know it was frustrating for you, but your story makes me feel good that my RO's were at least attempting to count!!! Yippeee Skippeee!

[kurtm]

Random thoughts.

A big magazine in a rifle or pistol DOESN'T make it much less utile in close environments.....I.E. house clearing/CQB. A big old tube on a shotgun does!! (read practical application)

If we no longer even acknowledge that 3-gun had it's roots in practical application of all 3 platforms what does it matter if the shotgun tube are 3 yards long. If 3-gun is "just another sport" and not a proving ground what does it matter for any restriction?

Personal thoughts!

For Shotgun, 22" barrel tube no more than 1" past end of barrel....practical!

Mag fed shotguns??? YES!!!

New rule on tube length? WHY? We no longer work "in the practical world"!

[Dan Sierpina]

The RO counting shells fired after the beep isn't fool proof either. Last year at He Man, on the birdshot stage, I engaged the first array, then before I even started to move I had added 4 shells and topped off my tube (10 round), proceeded to the next array with a Texas star, which I took and extra shot or two at, with no loading, since I already had, then continued the course. At the end, the RO stated that I had fired more than 9 shots before loading and I was going to Open. Now, he was standing behind me when I loaded my first 4. I load weak hand and don't put the shotgun over my shoulder. He never saw me add the shells after the timer sounded. I had even told a squad mate of my intention to load that way.

Yes, I loaded standing, but, there was no problem of tripping on any of the unevenness of the area that the stage was set up on. I'm not very fast anyway.

Where in the He-Man rules does it state that HM division competitors cannot fire more than 9 rounds (shotgun) without reloading?

Start condition for shotguns is 8 +1, load after the beep. Rocky Mountain 3 gun rule, 6.C.

[DocMedic]

I guess the only way to make it fair and equal to anyone is to have nothing but unloaded shotgun starts. That way you don't have to worry about if someone has 8 or 9 shells in their shotgun

[StealthyBlagga]

With short shells being widely available, you can't fix this with CAPACITY limits. As I indicated, if you think this is a problem for the sport, you can fix it with some combination of [a] limits on tube overall length (see my Stealth Division post above), and/or stages designed with tight shooting areas (make long tubes more liability than benefit).

I'd like to think the vast majority of 3-gunners want to win fair and square, and would not intentionally violate the start capacity limits of their division.

[Stlhead]

If a fixed start capacity such as the current 8 + 1 is the way to go, then I think we should consider having the RO's watch the loading and count in the shells or always start unloaded. Or we set a tube length and whatever you can fit in is whatever you can shoot. Or we do away with the limits all together and you can run any tube you like and fill it with whatever you like.

I agree that the majority of 3 gun shooters will do their best to comply with whatever they believe the rules are, but don't kid yourself into thinking that there are not those that would take any advantage they think they can get away with no matter what the rules say. Human nature being what it is there will always be a percentage of the people that subscribe to the "If you aint cheating you aint trying" mindset that has gotten more prevalent as our sport has moved more in the direction of racing.