Shotgun tube restrictions

[Stlhead]

bret,

You keep coming back with the statement that I want people to buy shorter tubes, and that counting to 9 will fix this problem. Neither is the case and repeating myself will not change your views. Could you give me the reasons you support the existing situation over any of the proposed solutions?

[bret]

bret,

You keep coming back with the statement that I want people to buy shorter tubes, and that counting to 9 will fix this problem. Neither is the case and repeating myself will not change your views. Could you give me the reasons you support the existing situation over any of the proposed solutions?

The rules are fine the way they are.

No reason to change them because someone may cheat, as an R.O. that runs shooters it's not hard to count and bump them to open if they exceed division capacity.

Production division and L10 in USPSA, we have a 10 round limit but when I shoot my G34 in production I use standard magazines the R.O. counts shots.

I catch more people screwing up in production in unloaded srarts than I do in shotgun.

Changing rules and making people change hardware on theit shotguns because someone may cheat is ridiculous.

My primary shotgun I use in 3 gun is a Benelli Super Black Eagle II with a 12 shot tube and a plus 2 cap.

I like it because sometines we have unloaded starts,so at the buzzer I throw in 14 shells,when I reload I know when I need to and where to stop on my belt grabbing shells, ports and ditching it can be a hindrance but it works for me.

If I shoot open in a shotgun match I either use my versa max with an xrail, or my Benelli M4 with an 18 shot tube, but the gun is 5' 6" tall so ports and ditching it is difficult.

Or I can put my other xrail in my SBEII.

Or I can shoot my Benelli M2 tactical but it has a 10 shot tube in it too.

All of my guns are legal per the rules for the division I shoot in.

How many cheaters are you seeing that makes everyone change their shotguns necessary?

Why not deal with the cheaters, instead if making everyone comply with new,rules and gear?

[Alaskapopo]

bret,

You keep coming back with the statement that I want people to buy shorter tubes, and that counting to 9 will fix this problem. Neither is the case and repeating myself will not change your views. Could you give me the reasons you support the existing situation over any of the proposed solutions?

The rules are fine the way they are.

No reason to change them because someone may cheat, as an R.O. that runs shooters it's not hard to count and bump them to open if they exceed division capacity.

Production division and L10 in USPSA, we have a 10 round limit but when I shoot my G34 in production I use standard magazines the R.O. counts shots.

I catch more people screwing up in production in unloaded srarts than I do in shotgun.

Changing rules and making people change hardware on theit shotguns because someone may cheat is ridiculous.

My primary shotgun I use in 3 gun is a Benelli Super Black Eagle II with a 12 shot tube and a plus 2 cap.

I like it because sometines we have unloaded starts,so at the buzzer I throw in 14 shells,when I reload I know when I need to and where to stop on my belt grabbing shells, ports and ditching it can be a hindrance but it works for me.

If I shoot open in a shotgun match I either use my versa max with an xrail, or my Benelli M4 with an 18 shot tube, but the gun is 5' 6" tall so ports and ditching it is difficult.

Or I can put my other xrail in my SBEII.

Or I can shoot my Benelli M2 tactical but it has a 10 shot tube in it too.

All of my guns are legal per the rules for the division I shoot in.

How many cheaters are you seeing that makes everyone change their shotguns necessary?

Why not deal with the cheaters, instead if making everyone comply with new,rules and gear?

Exactly!

Pat

[Bryan 45]

Why do you continue to refer to Production and USPSA? This discussion has nothing to do with either. (Unless you're living in a part of the country that actually has USPSA 3 gun matches, but it's been many years since I've seen one of those other than USPSA MG Nationals.)

But, nearly all 3 gun rules limit the length of the ammunition feeding device for the handgun. Why? I would expect it's due to practicality. I'm sure it's not safety. Probably not phallic envy. Certainly not bowing to political pressure. So if limiting the size of a handgun (by ways of magazine) is acceptable, why not shotgun too?

Pat, I agree it's a game. But I personally resist the shift to remove the origins of our game and the martial use of our tools. You're a gun guy, like me, and I'm sure you can understand this.

[bret]

Why do you continue to refer to Production and USPSA? This discussion has nothing to do with either. (Unless you're living in a part of the country that actually has USPSA 3 gun matches, but it's been many years since I've seen one of those other than USPSA MG Nationals.)

But, nearly all 3 gun rules limit the length of the ammunition feeding device for the handgun. Why? I would expect it's due to practicality. I'm sure it's not safety. Probably not phallic envy. Certainly not bowing to political pressure. So if limiting the size of a handgun (by ways of magazine) is acceptable, why not shotgun too?

Pat, I agree it's a game. But I personally resist the shift to remove the origins of our game and the martial use of our tools. You're a gun guy, like me, and I'm sure you can understand this.

I shoot USPSA 3 gun matches 2 or 3 times a month here, sonetimes 2 in onecweekend, we follow USPSA multigun rules.

I have not seen anything in USPSA Multigin rules that restricts tube length on a shotgun.

Reason I used production was as an example of how R.O.'s can easily count shots and watch the shooter.

Yes they limit magazines to 141.25 mm in limited 171.25 mm in open.

What some people are proposing is limiting capacity and or length on abandoned shotgun.

Long tubes are popular on an lot of the big 3 gun pro shooters.

Only about few states have magazine limits, do you think everyone in USPSA in the free states should only be allowed limited capacity magazines?

Is a guy with a long tube on his shotgun, or girl, that big of an advantage that the rules need to be changed?

The shotgun still has to be loaded. The shots still have to be made.

Current rules are fine, talk to your area director and Mike Foley if you don't like the current rules.

[AustinT]

Is a long tube a huge advantage? Damn right it is. I shot a 10 round tube for years and thought that was too long, and now I have to shoot a 12 round tube to remain competitive with the guys at my level. Long tubes suck because they force everyone to have a long tube or be at a disadvantage. I can't help but think that if anyone can't understand this, they clearly do not have the experience or skill set required for an accurate discussion on the subject.

I don't like having to use a shotgun that looks more suited to pole vaulting and doesn't even fit in my damn safe assembled.

[AustinT]

I would also like to state for the record that it is possible, even frequently advantageous and reccomended, to reload before firing 8 of the 9 preloaded rounds. Doing so makes it impossible to prove that anyone did anything (oh, no, I dropped a shell on that quad load).

It is nothing like production. I have never seen anyone remove a magazine, insert additional ammunition into said magazine, reload said magazine, and continue shooting during a course of fire.

[Stlhead]

Sometimes I feel as if I am typing in a foreign language. My comments in RED.

I shoot USPSA 3 gun matches 2 or 3 times a month here, sonetimes 2 in onecweekend, we follow USPSA multigun rules. I am happy for you but this is not relevant

I have not seen anything in USPSA Multigin rules that restricts tube length on a shotgun. So what?

Reason I used production was as an example of how R.O.'s can easily count shots and watch the shooter. You are mistaken

Yes they limit magazines to 141.25 mm in limited 171.25 mm in open. It's OK for pistols, but not shotguns?

What some people are proposing is limiting capacity and or length on abandoned shotgun. Or removing any restriction whatsoever, or strictly monitoring preloading.

Long tubes are popular on an lot of the big 3 gun pro shooters. So What? Really? So are Speedcross shoes, should they be required?

Only about few states have magazine limits, do you think everyone in USPSA in the free states should only be allowed limited capacity magazines? I don't care about USPSA it is not even a part of this discussion please stop bringing it up.

Is a guy with a long tube on his shotgun, or girl, that big of an advantage that the rules need to be changed? It is not about what equipment is in use it is about an unenforceable rule.

The shotgun still has to be loaded. The shots still have to be made. Yes, but what does this have to do with the discussion?

Current rules are fine, talk to your area director and Mike Foley if you don't like the current rules. Again, what is with the USPSA?

[P.E. Kelley]

I bet I will be told it is not relevant but IPSC used too restrict tubes too only HOLD 8 rounds and they used certified dummy rounds at the start of the

event to check your guns.

However that is no longer the case. From the current ISPC rules.

APPENDIX D: Standard (auto) Standard Manual (pump)

1. Minimum Power Factor 480

2. Minimum caliber 20 gauge/bore

3. Cartridge loops, clips or side-saddles fitted to the gun Yes

12. Capacity restrictions for initial load prior to the start signal. Max. of 9 rounds loaded

[Stlhead]

Pat,

Is not all IPSC preloading carefully monitored? If so then they have already resolved the issue with what is in my mind a suitable solution. I just do not see careful preload inspection working at the matches I go to. There are rarely enough match officials as it is. That is what leads me to feel that the removal of the start capacity stipulation altogether would be best. There could be a tube max capacity limit, or a tube length limit, or just as well no other limits and everyone uses long tubes and loads em up. All of these options would address the issue, and some would address other issues as well.