DQ or no DQ (quick vid)

[usmc1094]

If it wasn't a shot you meant to take doesn't that make it an accident? Who cares where the round goes. You can tell from his reaction as soon as the round goes off. We all pride ourselves on safe gun handling, but mistakes happen. We should own up to them just as the op has!

[Garmil]

Was for sure an accidental shot. But where in the rules does it say all accidental shots are a dq? Nowhere that I see which seems odd.

[Religious Shooter]

What rules are being used?

The angle on the video was close. But if the shot left the back berm I'd say DQ.

Otherwise I would say it wasn't a DQ.

[usmc1094]

2.5.4 Unloading any firearm in an unsafe manner, or discharging a firearm while not legitimately

engaging a target.

From FNH 2015 rules. I think that works here.

[usmc1094]

What rules are being used?

The angle on the video was close. But if the shot left the back berm I'd say DQ.

Otherwise I would say it wasn't a DQ.

I'd say it doesn't matter if it hit the berm it was an accident (shot that he didnt mean to send down range) he just got lucky it hit the berm!

[sophiasmith]

DQ

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[MarkCO]

If an unintentional shot is not a DQ, then the ruleset has a problem as well as the shooter.

[Alaskapopo]

First time I have ever had this happen. I went for a mandatory rifle reload and squeezed off a round before releasing the mag. I was baffled by this because I feel I'm very safety conscience. A close inspection of video shows that it looks like my finger slipped off the mag release after I removed my hand from the handgaurd.

I'm curious to hear if someone else has a different opinion of what I'm seeing.

I'm also curious if you think this should be a DQ or not. There was some debate. The round went in a safe direction and I think the only argument is that the round went off "during a reload. When does a reload start?

https://youtu.be/17rsydJvnFA

Depends on the rules you are running under here it would be a DQ for an unintentional shot.

Pat

[Alaskapopo]

If an unintentional shot is not a DQ, then the ruleset has a problem as well as the shooter.

Agreed. The rules should be there to ensure safety and this is not safe.

Pat

[Doug H.]

Clearly a DQ. The shooter has changed his focus to the reload and does not even appear to be sighting the gun. I would not have let him continue. Kurt, the difference between what you said you do and what this guy did is huge. When you burn a round into a target you clearly are putting the round where you want it to go. After re-running the video several times the shooter is surprised by the shot but continues to run the stage. In USPSA 10.5.11 and 10.4.4 would apply. In 3GN 2.2.3 and 2.2.4.

[Paul Winters]

As stated in the description, the competitor was required to perform a mandatory reload between target arrays. The previous targets had been engaged so, based on the general information, the next step was a mandatory reload before engaging the next target array. That, and based on observation that the left hand going for another magazine and the right hand was attempting to push the mag release when the gun discharged, it would be hard to not to conclude that a reload was in progress. Depending on what the RO observed, it could go either was. Having video to observe and replay gives us a possible different perspective.

Paul : -)#

[usmc1094]

For your viewing pleasure and to add to the discussion. What does everyone think of this?

I say DQ! He actually gets a reshoot.

Just a side note, this is not me but just a video I watched after I shot this match.

Edited January 11, 2016 by usmc1094

[Religious Shooter]

What rules are being used?

The angle on the video was close. But if the shot left the back berm I'd say DQ.

Otherwise I would say it wasn't a DQ.

I'd say it doesn't matter if it hit the berm it was an accident (shot that he didnt mean to send down range) he just got lucky it hit the berm!

It does matter if it hits the berm... depending on the rules being used. USPSA rules outline what an accidental discharge is.

USPSA Rules:

10.4 Match Disqualification – Accidental Discharge 10.4.1 A competitor who causes an accidental discharge must be stopped by a Range Officer as soon as possible. An accidental discharge is defined as follows:

10.4.2 A shot, which travels over a backstop, a berm or in any other direction, specified in the written stage briefing by the match organizers as being unsafe. Note that a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target, which then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified (the provisions of Section [2.3] may apply).

10.4.2.1 Exception- engaging flying targets with birdshot. [10.5.2] still applies.

10.4.3 A shot which strikes the ground within 10 feet of the competitor, except when shooting at a paper or frangible target closer than 10 feet to the competitor.

10.4.3.1 Exception — A bullet which strikes the ground within 10 feet of the competitor due to a “squib”.

10.4.3.2 In the case of a shot striking a prop where the bullet is deflected or does not continue to strike the ground, if the Range Official determines that the bullet would have struck the ground within 10 feet of the competitor had it not been deflected or stopped by the prop, the provisions of [10.4.3] shall apply.

10.4.4 A shot which occurs while loading, preloading, reloading or unloading a firearm. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule [8.3.1] and Rule [8.3.9]. 10.4.4.1 Exception – a detonation, which occurs while unloading a firearm, is not considered a shot or discharge subject to a match disqualification, however, Rule [5.1.7] may apply.

10.4.5 A shot which occurs during remedial action in the case of a malfunction.

10.4.6 A shot which occurs while transferring a firearm between hands or shoulders.

10.4.7 A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting at targets. 10.4.8 A shot fired at a metal target with a bullet, slug or shot containing steel or tungsten.

[usmc1094]

Come on man your picking and choosing what rule you want to apply. 10.4.4a works here. Instead of arguing we will just say you see it one way and I see it another.

[Garmil]

10.4.2 still wouldn't apply here. It wasn't over the been and it wasn't in a specified unsafe location.

[Religious Shooter]

Come on man your picking and choosing what rule you want to apply. 10.4.4a works here. Instead of arguing we will just say you see it one way and I see it another.

That's why I asked what rule set they were using.

[Ryan N]

3GN rules were in play at this match.

[RGinIdaho]

DQ for both videos posted to this point in the thread.

[dmshozer1]

For your viewing pleasure and to add to the discussion. What does everyone think of this?

I say DQ! He actually gets a reshoot.

Just a side note, this is not me but just a video I watched after I shot this match.

He got away with one for sure!

[Sarge]

If an unintentional shot is not a DQ, then the ruleset has a problem as well as the shooter.

then USPSA rules gave a problem as well. AD is very specifically defined. There are certainly ways to fire a shot unintentionally without it meeting AD/DQ CRITERIA.

[outerlimits]

For your viewing pleasure and to add to the discussion. What does everyone think of this?

I say DQ! He actually gets a reshoot.

Just a side note, this is not me but just a video I watched after I shot this match.

if it's USPSA, DQ per 10.4.5.

i watched nils retrieve his shotgun at the 2015 mg nationals and blow a chunk of the table off. was dq'd and reinstated cause at the time there was no rule to cover it-but there is now. (MG 10.4.6)

Edited January 11, 2016 by outerlimits

[CHA-LEE]

Rule interpretation aside, the more alarming thing I see is shooters having AD's then simply rolling with it like it's no big deal........

If my gun fires when I am clearly not engaging targets, regardless of being able to justify it within the rules or not, I am personally DONE. Either my gun handling or weapon functionality is grossly negligent in some manner and everything should stop from a safety perspective. I have actually DQed myself from matches a couple of times for both scenarios. No match is worth the liability of me continuing to shoot when I don't know if or when my gun is going to fire.

[Nghthwk1911]

^ being self aware and having character will lead you down this path. I can not tell you how many times I have see, or heard of shooters that KNOWNLY did something unsafe and not getting caught laugh about it carry on. When you try and tell them what they did was wrong they don't get it, that is the really sad part.

[Sarge]

^ being self aware and having character will lead you down this path. I can not tell you how many times I have see, or heard of shooters that KNOWNLY did something unsafe and not getting caught laugh about it carry on. When you try and tell them what they did was wrong they don't get it, that is the really sad part.

This happens at the highest levels. I see it so often that I have adopted the practice myself. If I don't hear stop I keep going.

[MarkCO]

If an unintentional shot is not a DQ, then the ruleset has a problem as well as the shooter.

then USPSA rules gave a problem as well. AD is very specifically defined. There are certainly ways to fire a shot unintentionally without it meeting AD/DQ CRITERIA.

Agreed. When the range lawyers started playing with the meaning of words and NROI allowed such, that was wrong. There are 4 Laws of gun safety and the further we drift from them and not hold shooters responsible for their actions, the more risk is present. That may be a minority view, and I agree the rulebook needs to be followed, but there are some rulings I do not agree with when safety is compromised by removal of a layer.

i fully agree with what CHA-LEE wrote...

If my gun fires when I am clearly not engaging targets, regardless of being able to justify it within the rules or not, I am personally DONE. Either my gun handling or weapon functionality is grossly negligent in some manner and everything should stop from a safety perspective. I have actually DQed myself from matches a couple of times for both scenarios. No match is worth the liability of me continuing to shoot when I don't know if or when my gun is going to fire.

Edited January 11, 2016 by MarkCO