Ryan N Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 First time I have ever had this happen. I went for a mandatory rifle reload and squeezed off a round before releasing the mag. I was baffled by this because I feel I'm very safety conscience. A close inspection of video shows that it looks like my finger slipped off the mag release after I removed my hand from the handgaurd.I'm curious to hear if someone else has a different opinion of what I'm seeing. I'm also curious if you think this should be a DQ or not. There was some debate. The round went in a safe direction and I think the only argument is that the round went off "during a reload. When does a reload start? https://youtu.be/17rsydJvnFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) I've seen it happen twice in the same match and heard of more incidents on other squads. Its always when it's cold out and the shooters always get DQ'd for an AD. Edited January 10, 2016 by TonytheTiger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Sorry DQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dapribek Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Same thing happened to a buddy of mine, dq, no question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nghthwk1911 Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 So this is a 3 Gun Nation match, and while I am not versed in the specific rules of 3 Gun Nation, it would appear that this is "During the Reload" and in sports like USPSA that is a DQ. under very specfic rules. Can someone put a link or rule section for this in 3 GN? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 2.2.4 A shot that occurs while loading, reloading, transitioning off or back to the shoulder or during remedial action in the case of a malfunction or clearing a firearm. 2.8 Discharging or “Burning” the last round(s) to empty the chamber or unload a firearm is admissible, but it must be pointed in a safe direction. Long guns must be fired from the shoulder. Competitors’ failing to keep long guns shouldered while “burning” any round(s) is considered a Negligent Discharge and will result in a match DQ. (Rule 2.2.3, 2.2.6) He hadn't started reloading yet, the rifle was still shouldered, and he fired at the targets. It would be pretty hard to DQ him for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nghthwk1911 Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Nick, I dont know it looked like he started the reload, and broke the cheek weld of the stock, and the stock was coming off his shoulder. I think this is the same issue we have in all shooting sports, when is the reload started, it cant be "intent" to reload, but there is clear movement that would lead one to think he is in the process. weak hand off the forearm of the rifle, cheek weld broken.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Nick, I dont know it looked like he started the reload, and broke the cheek weld of the stock, and the stock was coming off his shoulder. I think this is the same issue we have in all shooting sports, when is the reload started, it cant be "intent" to reload, but there is clear movement that would lead one to think he is in the process. weak hand off the forearm of the rifle, cheek weld broken.... He hadn't started the physical action of reloading, but only because his finger slipped off the mag button and he hit the trigger. I feel like you could try and DQ him for intent, but it would be something he could easily have overturned in arb, because he wasn't in one of the states you can DQ someone in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nghthwk1911 Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Nick, that is my point, for an RO to make a call that sends someone home from a match, clear defenitions make all the diffirence in the world. Even in USPSA there is no CLEAR start of the reload, it is just the insertion or replenishment of ammo.... where does it start. at the mag button push? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Dq for sure. 2.2.4 would apply 2.8 would not, not sure why that was cited. The round he fired was accidental and it didn't empty the chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 His left hand as almost on the mag on his belt when he broke the shot. (at least that is what I see in the video rendered on my computer). As seen in my browser, DQ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1094 Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) I think this is getting a little to "political". His hand was off the handguard and cheek weld was broken, not that it should matter. Just because it was down range doesn't mean it was at a target, didn't look as if he was aiming. It was an accident, you can see it on his face (it surprised him) Most definitely a DQ. Edited January 10, 2016 by usmc1094 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toby1304 Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 His finger slipped and hit the trigger, Accidental Discharge, DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blairmckenzie1 Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 First time I have ever had this happen. I went for a mandatory rifle reload and squeezed off a round before releasing the mag. I was baffled by this because I feel I'm very safety conscience. A close inspection of video shows that it looks like my finger slipped off the mag release after I removed my hand from the handgaurd. (and a round was discharged) I'm curious to hear if someone else has a different opinion of what I'm seeing. I'm also curious if you think this should be a DQ or not. There was some debate. The round went in a safe direction and I think the only argument is that the round went off "during a reload. When does a reload start? https://youtu.be/17rsydJvnFA To the OP, What is it that you are seeing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Well riddle me this. When I unload a rifle, many times I will shoot one round at the last target, push the mag release and after the mag drops free shoot the last round at the target. I have never been D.Q.ed for it even at the Nationals. Second I reload shotgun at the shoulder. A Few times during a reload I have noticed that my last shot before the reload hasn't been as effective as I would have liked....ie...I missed. In mid reload I have shot the target that hadn't been hit with only the firing hand on the gun in the shoulder, with my weak hand going for more shells or just grabbing more shells at belt level. Never been D.Q.ed for it even at the Nationals. So why is this different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Well riddle me this. When I unload a rifle, many times I will shoot one round at the last target, push the mag release and after the mag drops free shoot the last round at the target. I have never been D.Q.ed for it even at the Nationals. Second I reload shotgun at the shoulder. A Few times during a reload I have noticed that my last shot before the reload hasn't been as effective as I would have liked....ie...I missed. In mid reload I have shot the target that hadn't been hit with only the firing hand on the gun in the shoulder, with my weak hand going for more shells or just grabbing more shells at belt level. Never been D.Q.ed for it even at the Nationals. So why is this different? Your rifle example is very different. You are doing what is specifically allowed in rule 2.8 he did not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chargerarms Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Well riddle me this. When I unload a rifle, many times I will shoot one round at the last target, push the mag release and after the mag drops free shoot the last round at the target. I have never been D.Q.ed for it even at the Nationals. Second I reload shotgun at the shoulder. A Few times during a reload I have noticed that my last shot before the reload hasn't been as effective as I would have liked....ie...I missed. In mid reload I have shot the target that hadn't been hit with only the firing hand on the gun in the shoulder, with my weak hand going for more shells or just grabbing more shells at belt level. Never been D.Q.ed for it even at the Nationals. So why is this different? I see the difference being you were aiming and intending to hit the target. Here, he slipped, while the weapon was out of the pocket, head looking else where and not aiming at a target. He also has stated that he was trying to hit mag release and hit the trigger instead, he was in the reloading process (2.2.4). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 I am aware of that, however, and maybe some thread drift, When does a "reload" start?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OPENB Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Where is "intent" mentioned in any rule set? Actions are enforced by rules, not intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Even if by the definition he was not reloading yet its still a dq. He was transitioning off his shoulder at the time of the shot. 2.2.4 A shot that occurs while loading, reloading, transitioning off or back to the shoulder or during remedial action in the case of a malfunction or clearing a firearm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) Not sure if this will work, but THIS is as close as I could get to the fired shot, if the reload has NOT started here, WHEN does it? When the mag drops free? When the next mag enters the magwell? A lot of you guys are following slick willy in your "depends is what IS is" definitions. http://youtu.be/17rsydJvnFA?t=12 nope didn't work Video at 12 sec in, the shot is also very close to "over the berm" as well Edited January 10, 2016 by toothandnail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chargerarms Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 I am aware of that, however, and maybe some thread drift, When does a "reload" start?? I'll drift with ya, but just for a little bit and will try to keep it with this topic. The reload started when he went to grab for his magazine as he stated in his post. "I went for a mandatory rifle reload and squeezed off a round before releasing the mag" So here, since he said I was reloading when this happened, he was in the "reload". I think the "when does the reload start" is an area that is not as easily defined but in this topic, it is. When would you say his reload started? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinsr98 Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Awesome looking range, too close to call. No RO stoppage, round fired towards targets. I could live with it either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan N Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) Thanks to everyone for giving your thoughts. I'm seeing that I let my finger slip into trigger guard and touch the bang switch. It appears that it happened right when I was pulling my mag from my belt. Obviously, the RO didn't stop me and even though I was caught off guard, I moved on and finished the stage. The RO and score keeper were debating the DQ after ULSC and I argued that I had not began my reload and that the bullet impact was down range into the berm. We watched this video together and I accepted my wrong doing after seeing the vid. But they let it slide because the RO said he should have stopped me and it was the last stage anyway. This give me a reason to practice rifle reloading(something that I seldom do). Edited January 10, 2016 by Ryan N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Bacus Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 I am aware of that, however, and maybe some thread drift, When does a "reload" start?? Kurt, it's like pornography. Hard to define, but you know it when you see it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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