IDPA rules and why you don't like them

[v1911]

I don't see how they can call a division Stock Service Pistol and then allow for modifications.

If you want to tinker with your gun, join the ESP ranks.

[CHARLES D]

Charles D, IDPA was started by individuals who have been there and done that! They tried to start an organized shooting discipline based on their experiences. They were/are highly qualified trainers and trainers of trainers. The only difference between 90's tactics and todays tactics is the emphasis on the black rifle which is more in keeping with 3 gun. I dislike not being able to load to mag capacity but that wasn't a tactics rule it was a high cap mag availability rule. As far as how much ammo you can carry, think about real life. How much do you carry concealed. I could go on but.....

Remember, it's still a game. Use it for what it is and take from it what you will.

Richard

Richard--Like 9x45, I started one the 1st IDPA Clubs in California. #00693 so I know what the intent was at that time. The rule book was only 4-5-6 pages. IDPA officials came to our club to see how it was ran. Tactics really haven't changed through the years. I am a Firearms Instructor who believes Simunition Rounds for real life situations. It's a whole new world when someone else is shooting back at you. Fortunately I do have a CCW and carry 46 rounds on me.

[racknrider]

I don't see how they can call a division Stock Service Pistol and then allow for modifications.

If you want to tinker with your gun, join the ESP ranks.

+1

And I hate that certain modifications are only allowed if offered by manufacturers but you are not allowed to do it as an aftermarket modification.

[Single Stack]

I don't see how they can call a division Stock Service Pistol and then allow for modifications.

If you want to tinker with your gun, join the ESP ranks.

With this then explain the logic with one executive decision to call CZ Custom a non OEM manufacturer now all pre-2014 Shadow Targets all of a sudden went to being illegal for not only SSP but also ESP. They can only be shot in the Not For Competition class. The reason I made the comment about allowing slide milling but only for sights in SSP was to allow in the smaller non OEM manufacturers back in again and maybe prevent another future snafu with an up and coming manufacturer. I am all about minimizing tinkering in SSP but .......

[motosapiens]

IDPA rules don't bother me in the slightest. I don't have any issue with *any* of the rules. Every single one of them is fine by me. I also have no problems with the rules of cricket, or rugby, or curling.

[chirpy]

CharlesD A00686 for me. I agree with you Simunitions is the way to go but few of us have access to that system and it is impractical for IDPA. Very little stress in IDPA but it is better than nothing. I've trained and shot with some of the founders long before Simunitions and they set up some pretty stressful stages. Again, nothing like Simunitions. Hope what I know now is enough.

9X45 Yes it is. It's a training site and HQ for reserves. Not much else unless some of their helos are battle ready!

Richard

[Rangerdug]

I do like IDPA, and I do believe in having established rules. However, it how the rules overshadow/ micromanage the sport itself, I find fault with. I do have issue how we use the rules to Handicap shooters, advancements, and ultimately the growth of the sport. I do have an issue how the rule have created a culture of "over eager hall monitors", just looking for a reason to FTDR someone. That being said, I love shooting, I love competing, and I love that it does offer a tactical component. It must evolve, it cannot rely on that's the way we've always done it approach.

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[Smitty79]

I'd like to shoot IDPA once or twice a year. The membership and classifier rules make this hard. I'd happily pay an elevated non member match fee. But $40 for two matches, one of which is a classifier, is too much. I've shot my one match. Maybe I'll go back when I retire.

[racknrider]

I'd like to shoot IDPA once or twice a year. The membership and classifier rules make this hard. I'd happily pay an elevated non member match fee. But $40 for two matches, one of which is a classifier, is too much. I've shot my one match. Maybe I'll go back when I retire.

I've never been to a club that actually enforces this. We encourage membership but realize that for various reasons people do not want to join.

[IronArcher]

I don't like the fishing vest requirement. Reason? It's been gamed out of logical purpose. That's not how most CCW holders dress.

The "cover" rules could be changed to be less subjective to individual interpretation/enforcement.

One should be allowed to drop an EMPTY mag, even if the gun still has one in the chamber. I can understand RWR for a partly loaded mag, but not an empty one.

Not a fan of the change to 1 sec per point. Reason? this is going to slow the game down even more.

Don't understand the purpose of 10 rounds in SSP. Who would only load their mags just over 1/2 way? 15 would probably be a better number...keeps the .40 guys competitive. If you want to keep drilling reloads, you can always set stages up for fewer rounds in the mags.

Those are the biggies for me.

[FWSixgunner]

I tried it to get back into competition and found I don't like it.

I guess short of a major LE agency firearm training program, it's OK.

Real world you're not going to be walked through a COF and told exactly what to do. "Tactical order" seems like a good way to get killed if you let your mind get wired to that vs scanning for threats and assessing them. Suppose the nearest bad guy is unarmed and ducks for cover when he sees you have a gun, but his buddy is two yards further out with a gun?

The point down penalty doesn't bother me. The best shooters will adjust.

As I understand the recent BUG changes, one of the most popular carry guns, the 5-shot revolver, can no longer be near competitive.

Not allowing moon clips or revolvers over 6 rounds seems stupid and puts revos at an extra disadvantage. Do they deprive semi-auto shooters of their fastest possible reload?

Shoot while retreating is stupid, unless you're being attacked by snails. Also how smart is moving towards a threat?

I don't worry about my score. I just shoot em as I see fit and dont worry about the stupid procedurals, like not moving my feet.

I have no real-world experience or training, but I think Gabe Suarez technique of airsoft fights is sound. He turned a supposedly well-trained group loose with airsoft pistols one day and discovered all the stand & shoot training went out the window when people are trying to not get shot themselves.

Maybe I'll start going with my son:-)

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[solaritx]

I believe that in an effort to make things better they often just complicated the issue.

KISS principle could have helped a lot.

Enhanced Service Pistol.....just that "enhanced". Weigh X amount with empty mag. Standard sights and must fit in box.

Custom Service Pistol..... just that "Custom". Weigh X amount with empty mag. Standard sights and must fit in box

Stock Service Pistol..... just that.....STOCK....no modifications allowed, weigh X amount with empty mag. Standard sights and must fit in box.

Etc....etc....etc

Rulebook awhile back wasn't that bad. Needed a few simple clarifications to make sure things were called equally across the USA and a few simplifications like above and it would have been really good.

[motosapiens]

Real world you're not going to be walked through a COF and told exactly what to do. "Tactical order" seems like a good way to get killed if you let your mind get wired to that vs scanning for threats and assessing them.

what is the point of even pretending that idpa or any other sport is going to cause your mind to get wired in a way that affects non sporting life? I play hockey, but it doesn't wire me to pin other shoppers to the wall so I can get to the checkout first? I raced motorcycles for years and it never caused me to start block-passing people on freeway on-ramps.

the main failing of idpa imho is the pretense that it has anything to do with real world. the rules supporting that fantasy suck at the real world and they suck at sport too. It would be like if motorcycle racing required you to yield to vehicles on your left.

[Rangerdug]

It does have some applications in the real world... It does reinforce cover, accuracy, and sense of stress. But the half of a half bs doesn't work. I agree that retreating, nor that archaic idea that dropping rounds is bad. That is silly and tactically wrong. I guarantee that will start all sorts of debate(I will gladly refute) but in reference to OP. These rules on top of rules, defended by a sense of tactics, that IMO are archaic and hurt the sport.

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[Forrest Halley]

I dislike the retention of ammunition rules. As a revolver shooter a tacticool reload is great if performed in a lull, meaning off the clock in competition or after I'm sure the threats are forever neutralized. All combat reloads are going to be big boy rules and done as fast as possible to avoid being overrun. Empties and loaded ammunition in a handful is going to prove just as impractical to reload into the gun as a partial moonclip in any hurry.

How about the reloading behind cover theory? What if cover is more than three seconds away?

What is the problem with loading all eight in an eight shot revolver? You expect me to load two clicks just so it's fair? Why not state six shots prior to a reload?

What does barrel length matter? The holster rules will take care of any advantage a long barrel creates. I never had to fit in the box in the first place.

Why can't I carry two (or three?) single action revolvers and draw and fire them simultaneously? They let me do it in SASS and ITRW. It's totally practical, just heavy and the reloads are something for me to worry about. I'm stuck with that bill ITRW.

[FWSixgunner]

Real world you're not going to be walked through a COF and told exactly what to do. "Tactical order" seems like a good way to get killed if you let your mind get wired to that vs scanning for threats and assessing them.

what is the point of even pretending that idpa or any other sport is going to cause your mind to get wired in a way that affects non sporting life? I play hockey, but it doesn't wire me to pin other shoppers to the wall so I can get to the checkout first? I raced motorcycles for years and it never caused me to start block-passing people on freeway on-ramps.

Lets hope not, because applying that analogy to the shooting sports means you would be shooting the other shoppers.

Do you practice at hockey to body check little old ladies at Wal Mart? Of course not. You do it to prepare for a game.

Do you practice your slap shot on empty ice, centered in front of an empty net, dust off the puck a few times, aim at the center of the net, and shoot standing dead still?

Under duress, your rational thinking goes bye-bye (excepting people like LEOs who have experienced it or are exceptionally trained.). Instinct takes over and actions tend to default to what your body has learned through repetition, the way you've practiced.

Thats why you used to hear about LEOs in the revolver days dumping empties in their hand and placing them in their pocket before reloading during a shootout. That's the way they had been doing it on the range.

I read once about an IPSC shooter carrying concealed who thought two guys were about to stick him up. After realizing he wasn't going to get robbed, he noticed he had raised his hands to the surrender position.

Competition surely boosts your confidence and hones shooting skills, but it can also teach bad habits.

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[motosapiens]

Real world you're not going to be walked through a COF and told exactly what to do. "Tactical order" seems like a good way to get killed if you let your mind get wired to that vs scanning for threats and assessing them.

what is the point of even pretending that idpa or any other sport is going to cause your mind to get wired in a way that affects non sporting life? I play hockey, but it doesn't wire me to pin other shoppers to the wall so I can get to the checkout first? I raced motorcycles for years and it never caused me to start block-passing people on freeway on-ramps.

Lets hope not, because applying that analogy to the shooting sports means you would be shooting the other shoppers.

Do you practice at hockey to body check little old ladies at Wal Mart? Of course not. You do it to prepare for a game.I do

Do you practice your slap shot on empty ice, centered in front of an empty net, dust off the puck a few times, aim at the center of the net, and shoot standing dead still?

Under duress, your rational thinking goes bye-bye (excepting people like LEOs who have experienced it or are exceptionally trained.). Instinct takes over and actions tend to default to what your body has learned through repetition, the way you've practiced.

Thats why you used to hear about LEOs in the revolver days dumping empties in their hand and placing them in their pocket before reloading during a shootout. That's the way they had been doing it on the range.

I read once about an IPSC shooter carrying concealed who thought two guys were about to stick him up. After realizing he wasn't going to get robbed, he noticed he had raised his hands to the surrender position.

Competition surely boosts your confidence and hones shooting skills, but it can also teach bad habits.

I do play hockey against little old ladies sometimes. I think the story about the ipsc shooter is bs because surrender start is only one of many common start positions.

I don't think shooting competition teaches bad habits any more than motorcycle racing does. It's not real world, it's no substitute for real world training, but it does give you some better core skills. If you are actually right (I'm certain you are not), then IDPA is extremely dangerous for teaching you to seek 'cover' behind mesh fencing.

fortunately, IDPA is the same conceptual distance from actual self-defense as ice hockey is from shopping at the grocery store.

[Jim Watson]

Thats why you used to hear about LEOs in the revolver days dumping empties in their hand and placing them in their pocket before reloading during a shootout. That's the way they had been doing it on the range.

I have heard that twice. Once about the Newhall Incident, for which it has largely been debunked, the other by Bill Jordan in 'No Second Place Winner' in which he described the Border Patrolman found with a pocket full of brass after an engagement with smugglers. Thing is, this was after the shootout and the range trained Expert had successfully dealt with an opponent with a rifle.

[ES13Raven]

So my biggest complaint about the rules would be " Telling me how to shoot a stage. ". My problem, I'll solve it.

More and more, IDPA stage designers are allowing for choices on how to shoot a stage - which is a good thing.

[ES13Raven]

-they change too frequently

-they change for a reason not clearly articulated and defended

-tribal interpretation

-tribal implementation

-high degree of subjectivity in penalty calls

-disconnect between competition and ccw over ideas, perceptions, goals

-a majority of the BUG section

My main gripe is the rules change too often. I'm fine with clarifications added, but the rule book we have now is good. Leave it alone for 5 years.

[jcc7x7]

They change to often

Even the local SO's can't agree on them or what they mean

[Alaskapopo]

Real world you're not going to be walked through a COF and told exactly what to do. "Tactical order" seems like a good way to get killed if you let your mind get wired to that vs scanning for threats and assessing them.

what is the point of even pretending that idpa or any other sport is going to cause your mind to get wired in a way that affects non sporting life? I play hockey, but it doesn't wire me to pin other shoppers to the wall so I can get to the checkout first? I raced motorcycles for years and it never caused me to start block-passing people on freeway on-ramps.

Lets hope not, because applying that analogy to the shooting sports means you would be shooting the other shoppers.

Do you practice at hockey to body check little old ladies at Wal Mart? Of course not. You do it to prepare for a game.

Do you practice your slap shot on empty ice, centered in front of an empty net, dust off the puck a few times, aim at the center of the net, and shoot standing dead still?

Under duress, your rational thinking goes bye-bye (excepting people like LEOs who have experienced it or are exceptionally trained.). Instinct takes over and actions tend to default to what your body has learned through repetition, the way you've practiced.

Thats why you used to hear about LEOs in the revolver days dumping empties in their hand and placing them in their pocket before reloading during a shootout. That's the way they had been doing it on the range.

I read once about an IPSC shooter carrying concealed who thought two guys were about to stick him up. After realizing he wasn't going to get robbed, he noticed he had raised his hands to the surrender position.

Competition surely boosts your confidence and hones shooting skills, but it can also teach bad habits.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Actually a lot of us use the shooting sports as a way to hone our defensive weapon skills. World changing concept I know.

Pat

[motosapiens]

Real world you're not going to be walked through a COF and told exactly what to do. "Tactical order" seems like a good way to get killed if you let your mind get wired to that vs scanning for threats and assessing them.

what is the point of even pretending that idpa or any other sport is going to cause your mind to get wired in a way that affects non sporting life? I play hockey, but it doesn't wire me to pin other shoppers to the wall so I can get to the checkout first? I raced motorcycles for years and it never caused me to start block-passing people on freeway on-ramps.

Lets hope not, because applying that analogy to the shooting sports means you would be shooting the other shoppers.

Do you practice at hockey to body check little old ladies at Wal Mart? Of course not. You do it to prepare for a game.

Do you practice your slap shot on empty ice, centered in front of an empty net, dust off the puck a few times, aim at the center of the net, and shoot standing dead still?

Under duress, your rational thinking goes bye-bye (excepting people like LEOs who have experienced it or are exceptionally trained.). Instinct takes over and actions tend to default to what your body has learned through repetition, the way you've practiced.

Thats why you used to hear about LEOs in the revolver days dumping empties in their hand and placing them in their pocket before reloading during a shootout. That's the way they had been doing it on the range.

I read once about an IPSC shooter carrying concealed who thought two guys were about to stick him up. After realizing he wasn't going to get robbed, he noticed he had raised his hands to the surrender position.

Competition surely boosts your confidence and hones shooting skills, but it can also teach bad habits.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Actually a lot of us use the shooting sports as a way to hone our defensive weapon skills. World changing concept I know.

Pat

it is important imho to keep in mind the difference between skills and tactics. For sure, uspsa and idpa both are excellent arenas in which to increase your skills. For sure, they both suck as any kind of way to improve your tactics.

Edited January 16, 2016 by motosapiens

[S391]

In life I try to operate under the mantra that once I know the ground rules I'm fine. The same goes for IDPA. I have no problem with their rules.... their sandbox / their rules. However, there have been SO many changes in the last couple of years that I really can't keep up with it all.... I've stopped working as an SO since I can't keep the rules straight....

Hopefully they (IDPA) will resist the urge to keep making changes and just let things rest for a while.... Just because you CAN make changes doesn't always mean the you SHOULD.

Edited January 20, 2016 by S391

[Stony Lane]

I shoot IDPA for more trigger time. Their rules are their rules. However, "cover" is too subjective.

IDPA needs some type of fault lines or shooting boxes or...