Pistol Caliber Carbine. (PCC)

[StealthyBlagga]

...Those changes certainly won't make the matches a better experience for us, so the only other possibilities are it will be a wash, or it will be worse. I am loathe to take chances on something that might make my match day experience worse...

Nonsense - PCCers are far more charming, good looking, educated and wealthy than common old handgunners... you should look forward eagerly to our enriching your match experience greatly

[Gary Stevens]

Yep, just takes a little thought to how you add the start for pcc to the wsb and all is well. Again, my experience shooting them at the same time, on the same cof tells me it isn't that difficult to incorporate the two. The biggest benefit I see is not having a club have to secure another range day.

Speaking again of our local match the number of shooters from the one this weekend broke down like this:

Open-8

Limited Ten-3

Production-34

Limited-29

Single Stack-20

Carry Optics-3

PCC-15

PCC had more than SS, L10 and CO combined. I doubt this is a regional variance either.

And if you missed the video link earlier to the type of match I'm using to draw my conclusions from here you go again, STEEL Pistol and PCC

3+20+3 =26 or 11 more than PCC.

[d_striker]

I know of six guys in my area in the last month that bought PCC. Mostly JP's. Another one ordered a JP today 10 weeks build time.

What state are you in? Are these six guys USPSA members?

[rowdyb]

Rowdy-Are those people participating in PCC running it as a second gun?

ETA-Just watched vid and it looks like you were running it as a second gun.

some run it solely pcc. some like me run two guns.

[rowdyb]

Yep, just takes a little thought to how you add the start for pcc to the wsb and all is well. Again, my experience shooting them at the same time, on the same cof tells me it isn't that difficult to incorporate the two. The biggest benefit I see is not having a club have to secure another range day.

Speaking again of our local match the number of shooters from the one this weekend broke down like this:

Open-8

Limited Ten-3

Production-34

Limited-29

Single Stack-20

Carry Optics-3

PCC-15

PCC had more than SS, L10 and CO combined. I doubt this is a regional variance either.

And if you missed the video link earlier to the type of match I'm using to draw my conclusions from here you go again,

3+20+3 =26 or 11 more than PCC.

thank you, my error. i meant to say open, l10 and co combined.

Edited February 2, 2016 by rowdyb

[ZackJones]

I know of six guys in my area in the last month that bought PCC. Mostly JP's. Another one ordered a JP today 10 weeks build time.

What state are you in? Are these six guys USPSA members?

He's in SC and everyone that I know that's buying a PCC or plans to start shooting PCC are USPSA members. In addition to those local that are buying into PCC my brother in NC and on in GA are buying into it and they are USPSA members as well.

[StealthyBlagga]

Here in AZ we have a sizeable number of folks who do NOT shoot USPSA but do shoot outlaw long gun matches, and have PCCs. I expect they will enter the fold.

[Sarge]

On a technical point aren't USPSA pistol RO's only certified to run pistol shooters?Don't you technically need multigun certification to run a long gun shooter?

[Onepocket]

That's funny Sarge. Call the legal team...

[Beastly]

In a L1 match for a provisional division?

[DocMedic]

Couple examples of PCC for USPSA

Edited February 2, 2016 by DocMedic

[Sarge]

In a L1 match for a provisional division?

probably not. But what happens next year when it goes legit for all levels? Seems like RO's would need to get USPSA multigun endorsements on their cards. There is one guy locally that I know of that has it. He had to get it to work MG nationals. They wouldn't accept his CRO creds.

Like I said many times, I'm all for it but there are some things that need to be worked through if we want to do it right

Edited February 2, 2016 by Sarge

[BillD]

Some see opportunity, some see nothing but road blocks.

[ctay]

Some see opportunity, some see nothing but road blocks.

Ignoring road blocks can cause some pretty serious accidents. There are some legitimate issues that need to be resolved before something like this can happen. Pointing out the challenges does not make one a Luddite.

[BillD]

You guys act like it's never been done before, that people can't safely get through a COF with a long gun yet it happens every weekend.

[Sarge]

You guys act like it's never been done before, that people can't safely get through a COF with a long gun yet it happens every weekend.

So, next year at an area match RO's may have to be familiar with running an AR shooter. To me, of course it's not hard. But not every RO has been shooting them for30 years and may not even own one. If somebody gets hurt USPSA may have a problem since they themselves currently require multi gun certification for long guns.

It can be made to sound trivial but eventually MD's will have an even harder time finding competent help.

[BillD]

Well hell, let's bring in the lawyers...

[Gary Stevens]

PCC is a single gun platform. The term multi-gun involves the use of more than one gun platform during a stage.

ROing a PCC is no different than a handgun, IMO.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Gary Stevens

[teros135]

Well, yeah, but the ROS have to be willing.

[ChuckB]

I understand that USPSA will have to have their ducks in a row to do this but from an RO perspective I don't see any difference between this and a production or revolver guy RO'ing for an open guy. I believe the same issue is why the rules were changed for handling a dropped gun.

[Sarge]

PCC is a single gun platform. The term multi-gun involves the use of more than one gun platform during a stage.

ROing a PCC is no different than a handgun, IMO.

If Gary thinks so then it's certainly good enough for me. Case closed as far as I'm concerned.

[OPENB]

Since the DNORI is the one tasked with writing the rules for this, I assume he might know a thing or two about how this will work.

[CHA-LEE]

Can someone explain to me how deploying PPC in USPSA pistol matches "grows" the sport? Growth meaning bringing in and maintaining new shooters, not giving existing shooters something else to screw around with.

Edited February 2, 2016 by CHA-LEE

[StealthyBlagga]

Can someone explain to me how deploying PPC in USPSA pistol matches "grows" the sport? Growth meaning bringing in and maintaining new shooters, not giving existing shooters something else to screw around with.

I answered a similar question over at the USPSA site. Here is my answer:

• Why PCC? A USPSA-style PCC match format is appealing in different ways to handguns. The PCC platform is in some ways easier to shoot (opening participation to folks that struggle with a handgun), yet in other ways introduces new and interesting challenges for all of us (maneuvering around a course of fire, target transitions etc.). A lot of folks only shoot 3-gun/long gun matches, having less interest in handguns, and so a PCC division would draw them into the USPSA world. Some long-time handgunners just get burned out, and PCC can breathe new life into the match for them. For myself, I enjoy handgun, long gun and 3-gun competitions, and so being able to run a PCC in a USPSA handgun match (of which there are many in my area) gives me more choices each month. Oh, and 9mm<$<.223.
• Why not run PCC in multigun? Firstly, most multigun matches have at least some targets that are placed beyond the effective range of a PCC (~100 yards), so a PCC is just not viable. Furthermore, there are a sizable number of shooters (including USPSA handgunners) that have no interest in shooting shotgun - we see an explosion of new participation whenever we run rifle-only or rifle-pistol events.
• Why not have a dedicated PCC match? Unfortunately, there is just not enough critical mass in most locales to justify using a range exclusively for a PCC match. This may change in the future if PCC division proves to be as popular as some us expect, but we are not there yet.
• Why allow a "rifle" into a handgun match? A PCC is a rifle under federal law because of its buttstock. However, ballistically it is much closer to a handgun than a true rifle. In the "real world" (if that matters to anyone here) PCCs are often used as an easier to shoot, more accurate pistol. The "P" stands for "pistol" - the caliber we shoot out of a PCC is the same as we shoot out of our handguns. This makes all of the stage designs, target types and berm construction at a handgun match entirely compatible with PCC in a way that it would not be for a real rifle. If we accept the premise that PCC practical shooting is something worth doing (which I am sure not everyone here does), and we are able to put appropriate safety and match integration protocols in place (which DNROI is working on now), then a handgun match is its natural home.

PCC has a lot to offer, and I am pleased to see USPSA showing leadership in this area.

[TyinTX]

Can someone explain to me how deploying PPC in USPSA pistol matches "grows" the sport? Growth meaning bringing in and maintaining new shooters, not giving existing shooters something else to screw around with.

I'm an example of it growing the sport. I have no desire to shoot Production because the the 10 round limit and external modifications disqualify my pistol. In Limited I'm at a scoring disadvantage because minor power factor. PCC and CO sounds like more fun than Production. Pistol will never be my focus but shooting USPSA to get better is kind of a goal this year. I was gonna shoot Limited minor, but CO and the possibility of PCC sound like a lot more fun.