Pistol Caliber Carbine. (PCC)

[d_striker]

If the PCC'er shoot different stages, he is shooting a different match. If he is shooting a different match it should be on a different day.

Yup.

[ZackJones]

A better experiment would be to have a 12 year old girl do it. It must be safe for every potential participant.

Unfortunately I don't know any 12 year old girls that could attempt the test, sorry.

[Alaskapopo]

If the PCC'er shoot different stages, he is shooting a different match. If he is shooting a different match it should be on a different day.

Says who? That may be your opinion but you know they saying everyone has one. I totally disagree.

pat

[2MoreChains]

In the examples I provided, it would have been impossible for a PCC to shoot with two hands on the gun. The discussion now becomes, is it safe to shoot a rifle with one hand?

I'm curious about this as well. Weather permitting I'm going to setup a stage in the pistol bay where we have a tree and then run a rope over a branch and then try shooting some targets with one hand holding the rope and the other firing my rifle one handed. I'll try this SHO and WHO. I'll let you know how it goes after the experiment.

I gave this a try last Sunday. No tree, no rope, but I leaned around the right side of a barricade and shot one handed with the buttstock to my shoulder. Then I ran 8' transitioning to the left and did the same with weak hand/shoulder from the other side of the barricade.

Both times I had my off hand raised (as if asking for permission from teacher to go to the bathroom) as if to simulate holding open a prop or whatever. Bottom line: I shot my PCC one handed.

It seemed to work out ok for me.

[AWLAZS]

I disagree with the premise that PCCers should only be allowed to participate if they can perform EVERY stage requirement exactly the same as a handgunner. With a little thought and effort, there are many ways to accommodate PCCers on any handgun stage without in any way changing the challenge for handgunners. Maybe the challenge will not be exactly the same for the PCCer (e.g. alternate PCC-only shooting position), but this would not in any way degrade the experience for the handgunners - their stage requirements would be unchanged.

Each MD will be able to choose whether to make accommodations for PCCers. If the MD does not feel it can be done safely, or just does not want to, then that is their prerogative. If, on the other hand, the MD decides he wants to accommodate PCCers, and can do so safely and without upsetting the majority of his customers (which will always be handgunners), then where is the harm?

I must say also that I find the "divisionist" views expressed by some here - that anyone shooting a PCC over a handgun course is lazy and morally bereft - to be distasteful and disappointing. I would rather people stick to the practicalities of adding PCC to handgun matches... there is plenty to discuss without impugning other people's motives.

So you are saying that when I set up the pistol match I need to set up my stages to accommodate the PCC folks. Say allow them to have their own fault lines so they can get around some of the one handed and wicked hard leans. Like orange fault lines for hand gunners and some other color for the PCC guys.

I know being a club president I like to run all divisions. That sounds like a lot of work for my MD's.

[PKT1106]

No one said anything about different fault lines. No one is saying PCCs will run a different match. PCCs only shoot against other PCCs. If the rules are the same in the division, it doesn't matter if a production shooter uses weak hand only and a PCC shooter uses weak side only because they are not shooting against each other.

If you want to be technical about it, with rule differences across all 7 divisions, there are already 7 different matches going on simultaneously.

[Onepocket]

PCC will take over USPSA.

[CHA-LEE]

No one said anything about different fault lines. No one is saying PCCs will run a different match. PCCs only shoot against other PCCs. If the rules are the same in the division, it doesn't matter if a production shooter uses weak hand only and a PCC shooter uses weak side only because they are not shooting against each other.

If you want to be technical about it, with rule differences across all 7 divisions, there are already 7 different matches going on simultaneously.

You are missing the point that certain shooting challenges presented in handgun matches may require a physical position or gun handling scenario that can not be done with a PCC. The MD would have to accommodate for this PCC limitation and alter the stage so it can be safely shot by a PCC. Furthermore the MD would have to answer the same questions 89723429347 times about which WSB procedure, shooting area or whatever is needed for Pistol vs PCC. As an MD I am not going to set myself up for that level of ass pain so I would have to either "Dumb Down" the stages to make them Pistol/PCC universal or refuse to allow PCC to participate.

[BillD]

PCC will take over USPSA.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

[Sarge]

A better experiment would be to have a 12 year old girl do it. It must be safe for every potential participant.

Unfortunately I don't know any 12 year old girls that could attempt the test, sorry.

Maybe scrounge up some candidates to help with the testing. I don't know how to describe it but instead of a young girl maybe a smallish man or woman. You know the shooters in your locale. There has to somebody you are thinking," if he can do it, anybody can"?

[Onepocket]

That would be me Sarge, I have arms like a 12 year old girl. Zack and I will try the experiment this weekend. If I can do it anyone can.

[Sarge]

That would be me Sarge, I have arms like a 12 year old girl. Zack and I will try the experiment this weekend. If I can do it anyone can.

That's funny!

[ZackJones]

I gave this a try last Sunday. No tree, no rope, but I leaned around the right side of a barricade and shot one handed with the buttstock to my shoulder. Then I ran 8' transitioning to the left and did the same with weak hand/shoulder from the other side of the barricade.

Both times I had my off hand raised (as if asking for permission from teacher to go to the bathroom) as if to simulate holding open a prop or whatever. Bottom line: I shot my PCC one handed.

It seemed to work out ok for me.

Thanks for sharing your testing with us. OnePocket and I, as well as other folks at the match this weekend, will try it out. We have a 65+ female super senior. I think she'd be willing to give it a try and if she can do it then anyone should be able to do it.

Edited February 5, 2016 by ZackJones

[2MoreChains]

No one said anything about different fault lines. No one is saying PCCs will run a different match. PCCs only shoot against other PCCs. If the rules are the same in the division, it doesn't matter if a production shooter uses weak hand only and a PCC shooter uses weak side only because they are not shooting against each other.

If you want to be technical about it, with rule differences across all 7 divisions, there are already 7 different matches going on simultaneously.

You are missing the point that certain shooting challenges presented in handgun matches may require a physical position or gun handling scenario that can not be done with a PCC.

Charlie, I get what you're saying and am trying to envision a legal pistol stage that cannot be shot with a PCC. Can you give us an example?

I dabble a little in 3-gun but by no means do I consider myself an expert rifle shooter. That said, I feel like I can still shoot my PCC one-handed and supported (butt stock tucked into my shoulder) or even one-handed and unsupported (butt stock not touching shoulder). Granted I shoot better with both hands on the gun and shouldered, but then again I shoot my pistol better two-handed as well.

[CHA-LEE]

Here are some examples of stages that would be nearly impossible to shoot with a PCC..... These are all stages from Level 2 or above matches. I am obviously leaving out Classifiers or Standards type of stages that mandate one handed shooting.

[Jake Di Vita]

I don't know why you couldn't just put a 3x3 foot box outside of the fault line that only the pcc division would use. As long as it is safe and the same for everyone in each division, who cares.

I haven't seen any problem listed that can't be fixed with a fairly simple solution.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[PKT1106]

Here are some examples of stages that would be nearly impossible to shoot with a PCC..... These are all stages from Level 2 or above matches. I am obviously leaving out Classifiers or Standards type of stages that mandate one handed shooting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bjWTBLqgjE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99t5xGZGWMw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPE53BzUxrE

And I think stages like that where you have to put your center of gravity so far over you need a rope or handle to hang on is inherently dangerous. I am sure the designers and builders make sure its safe, but a rope breaks or the fasteners fail, especially in the 2015 Oilfield video, and a shooters day is messed up to say the least and hurt on the fall, and a loaded gun dropped. But that is a discussion for another thread.

A better example is a port right in front of you wit a rope to open it. A PCC shooter could do that. Pull the rope with the support hand and hoks both the rope and the PCC while shooting.

[CHA-LEE]

Or just NOT have rifles in pistol matches.

[Alaskapopo]

I don't know why you couldn't just put a 3x3 foot box outside of the fault line that only the pcc division would use. As long as it is safe and the same for everyone in each division, who cares.

I haven't seen any problem listed that can't be fixed with a fairly simple solution.

Because that makes too much sense. Not sure why all the hurt feelings over this.

Pat

Edited February 5, 2016 by Alaskapopo

[d_striker]

Here are some examples of stages that would be nearly impossible to shoot with a PCC..... These are all stages from Level 2 or above matches. I am obviously leaving out Classifiers or Standards type of stages that mandate one handed shooting.

And I think stages like that where you have to put your center of gravity so far over you need a rope or handle to hang on is inherently dangerous. I am sure the designers and builders make sure its safe, but a rope breaks or the fasteners fail, especially in the 2015 Oilfield video, and a shooters day is messed up to say the least and hurt on the fall, and a loaded gun dropped. But that is a discussion for another thread.

A better example is a port right in front of you wit a rope to open it. A PCC shooter could do that. Pull the rope with the support hand and hoks both the rope and the PCC while shooting.

What you and many others have been proposing is to alter stage design to accommodate PCC's. Whether it's not including a shooting challenge or adding additional shooting boxes. This goes against what many were initially saying when they said PCC's could be run in the same match without affecting stage design.

It seems we've finally gotten around to the fact that PCC's will in fact affect handgun matches.

[Jake Di Vita]

Or just NOT have rifles in pistol matches.

No one is making you man. You've already mentioned the fact that you will opt out of this. That's totally cool, I don't know why it bothers you so much that other people give it a shot.

[ctay]

CHA-LEE those were exactly the stages that I was thinking of. There were also some stages at area one a few years back that required you to pull a rope that opened a port that was far enough away from the port that you could not shoulder a rifle.

Or just NOT have rifles in pistol matches.

No one is making you man. You've already mentioned the fact that you will opt out of this. That's totally cool, I don't know why it bothers you so much that other people give it a shot.

In my opinion that is a really bad solution for USPSA. While it is allowed in the rules and it works pretty good on a one off basis, as a general practice a Club not offering one of the divisions is a recipe for fragmentation of the USPSA product. There is a lot of value in knowing that the offering is the same from club to club.

[Alaskapopo]

Here are some examples of stages that would be nearly impossible to shoot with a PCC..... These are all stages from Level 2 or above matches. I am obviously leaving out Classifiers or Standards type of stages that mandate one handed shooting.

And I think stages like that where you have to put your center of gravity so far over you need a rope or handle to hang on is inherently dangerous. I am sure the designers and builders make sure its safe, but a rope breaks or the fasteners fail, especially in the 2015 Oilfield video, and a shooters day is messed up to say the least and hurt on the fall, and a loaded gun dropped. But that is a discussion for another thread.

A better example is a port right in front of you wit a rope to open it. A PCC shooter could do that. Pull the rope with the support hand and hoks both the rope and the PCC while shooting.

What you and many others have been proposing is to alter stage design to accommodate PCC's. Whether it's not including a shooting challenge or adding additional shooting boxes. This goes against what many were initially saying when they said PCC's could be run in the same match without affecting stage design.

It seems we've finally gotten around to the fact that PCC's will in fact affect handgun matches.

How many stages are like the one mentioned 2 out of 200 so in 2 out of 200 you might have to marginally alter something for PCC that would not affect the handgun shooters. Sorry this just sounds like sour grapes.

[d_striker]

What you and many others have been proposing is to alter stage design to accommodate PCC's. Whether it's not including a shooting challenge or adding additional shooting boxes. This goes against what many were initially saying when they said PCC's could be run in the same match without affecting stage design.

It seems we've finally gotten around to the fact that PCC's will in fact affect handgun matches.

How many stages are like the one mentioned 2 out of 200 so in 2 out of 200 you might have to marginally alter something for PCC that would not affect the handgun shooters. Sorry this just sounds like sour grapes.

That's not the point at all. The point is that PCC has been sold from the beginning as being a "natural fit" for USPSA handgun matches. That it would be able to be included into existing matches without change or modification to stage design or structure.

In light of that being proven not true, it's sour grapes on my part?

The way I see it is that those that are the biggest advocates of PCC either didn't have the foresight to completely think this through or have thought about it and knowingly made false statements.

In either case, I personally get irritated when I'm lied to or when dealing with incompetence due to a lack of foresight.

[Alaskapopo]

What you and many others have been proposing is to alter stage design to accommodate PCC's. Whether it's not including a shooting challenge or adding additional shooting boxes. This goes against what many were initially saying when they said PCC's could be run in the same match without affecting stage design.

It seems we've finally gotten around to the fact that PCC's will in fact affect handgun matches.

How many stages are like the one mentioned 2 out of 200 so in 2 out of 200 you might have to marginally alter something for PCC that would not affect the handgun shooters. Sorry this just sounds like sour grapes.

That's not the point at all. The point is that PCC has been sold from the beginning as being a "natural fit" for USPSA handgun matches. That it would be able to be included into existing matches without change or modification to stage design or structure.

In light of that being proven not true, it's sour grapes on my part?

The way I see it is that those that are the biggest advocates of PCC either didn't have the foresight to completely think this through or have thought about it and knowingly made false statements.

In either case, I personally get irritated when I'm lied to or when dealing with incompetence due to a lack of foresight.

It is a natural fit with 99% of the time no changes at all being required and 1% of the time it might be if your club has props like those and likes to use them. At this point I say let the vote take place and I will live with it either way. I am pro fun and not trying to crap on other peoples choice of divisions.