NickBlasta Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Assuming you can hold the PCC by its pistol grip and fire it like a pistol without shouldering it, which is not exactly a hard thing to do, how are there any shots, even leans, that you could do with a handgun and not with a carbine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Also those leaning shots with the rope are a safety concern even with a pistol. I could see someone losing their grip and falling with a loaded gun. I try not to set up stages that are unsafe personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Here are some examples of stages that would be nearly impossible to shoot with a PCC..... These are all stages from Level 2 or above matches. I am obviously leaving out Classifiers or Standards type of stages that mandate one handed shooting. Thanks for the videos. Don't change those stages. I'll happily shoot those with a PCC, and short of prop fail (a different issue, but one that may be worth a conversation) I'll do it safely. I probably won't be at your M (GM? Sorry, I can't remember) level, but that shouldn't be a requirement. Less-skilled handgun competitors will find those stages more challenging than more-skilled handgun competitors will find those stages. The same is true for PCC competitors: the less-skilled will find certain tasks more/very challenging, and the more-skilled will find the same tasks less challenging. Respectfully, ac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 the less-skilled will find certain tasks more/very challenging, and the more-skilled will find the same tasks less challenging.Trufax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Show me any other handgun division that requires special treatment (WSB changes, Stage Modifications, Etc) so they can participate safely? Since the fact is that deploying PCC in a USPSA Pistol match would REQUIRE special treatment, restrict the shooting challenges and or simplified start position requirements how does that make it zero impact to current Pistol matches? I also want to point out that the times I have seen local shooters play with their PCC they are almost always some Frankenstein AR config. SBR's, Suppressed, Full Auto, AR "Pistol" configs with Sig arm braces shot off their shoulder, and on an on and on. First, do we really want the range, match, or USPSA liable for shooters showing up with illegal firearms? Do we turn USPSA into a firarm policing agency checking peoples tax stamps or making sure shooters don't shoulder an AR Pistol with a Sig arm brace? How do we deal with shooters who legally have full auto setups but the range hosting the match does not allow full auto? Do we allow them to shoot and hope that the Fun Switch does not get flipped? Second, if USPSA wanted to deploy PCC the division requirements and restrictions would need to be defined and how many existing PCC owners would end up with an invalid gun to participate with? I can see it now. PCC is adopted but the rules make most of them illegal to use in the division. That will make the PCC shooters happy won't it? Its easy for people to think of their Pistol Caliber Frankin AR sitting in their safe and want to shoot a USPSA match with it. But its not that simple once you dig into the details and overall impact of trying to deploy this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Legality and not going full auto is on the shooter, not the RO. It will be up to shooters to make sure their equipment is division legal. Here is a novel idea, don't buy something you may or not be able to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Thanks for the videos. Don't change those stages. I'll happily shoot those with a PCC, and short of prop fail (a different issue, but one that may be worth a conversation) I'll do it safely. I probably won't be at your M (GM? Sorry, I can't remember) level, but that shouldn't be a requirement. Less-skilled handgun competitors will find those stages more challenging than more-skilled handgun competitors will find those stages. The same is true for PCC competitors: the less-skilled will find certain tasks more/very challenging, and the more-skilled will find the same tasks less challenging. Respectfully, ac This might really be the crux. If most can do it one handed safely then it isn't so much of an issue. I don't know though - it is much much easier to lose control of a long gun shooting one handed than it is to lose control of a pistol shooting one handed. ESPECIALLY if you are off balance. Long guns have weight further out from your body so by basic laws of physics they are harder to control one handed. I worry that I can't guarantee the same level of safety with one handed long gun shooting that I can with one handed pistol shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Legality and not going full auto is on the shooter, not the RO. It will be up to shooters to make sure their equipment is division legal. Here is a novel idea, don't buy something you may or not be able to use. We will see how that works out when the USPSA club gets kicked out of the range for allowing full auto shooting to happen intentionally or not. It won't matter who's fault it is the club will simply be done. If the ATF shows up to a match to check for legal firearm ownership do you really think the host club and or range will be 100% immune to the situation? The club after all is providing public venue for people to perform illegal activities. Yet again another opportunity to have the USPSA club kicked out of the host range. As for people buying the correct PCC to fit within division rules that don't even exist, that is kind of difficult when all of the promoters of this probably already have PCC's that they want to use in a match. I know a lot of people don't need much excuse to buy another firearm, but it will piss people off that thay can't use what they already own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 It seems I've seen this same old rhetoric being preached over and over again on why something shouldn't be, from 8 Round Revolvers, to CO, and now PCC. There is too much redundancy in this thread and I'm afraid we'll just keep going in circles of subjective arguments. What we do know is the DNROI has been tasked to work up a set of rules for a possible PCC provisional division and to have it ready by the next board meeting, which should be in March. Many PCC events USPSA, Steel Challenge, or OUTLAW have been held plenty times around the country without issue, and even some USPSA Match directors have stated they allowed PCC to shoot in a match and had no issues. I'll just wait it out, and send objective input for PCC to DNROI. And Cha-lee if you don't want to run PCC once approved that's fine, that's why I also have a pistol. But I can almost guarantee it will be offered at WPGC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 (edited) I've never shot a 3 gun match but I came across this video from Area 6 today. I don't see any shots in this match, other than clays, that couldn't be performed with a PCC. Why couldn't PCC be rolled out with multi-gun where a rule set exists for them. They just shoot the entire match with PCC. Edited February 5, 2016 by d_striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 It seems I've seen this same old rhetoric being preached over and over again on why something shouldn't be, from 8 Round Revolvers, to CO, and now PCC. There is too much redundancy in this thread and I'm afraid we'll just keep going in circles of subjective arguments. What we do know is the DNROI has been tasked to work up a set of rules for a possible PCC provisional division and to have it ready by the next board meeting, which should be in March. Many PCC events USPSA, Steel Challenge, or OUTLAW have been held plenty times around the country without issue, and even some USPSA Match directors have stated they allowed PCC to shoot in a match and had no issues. I'll just wait it out, and send objective input for PCC to DNROI. And Cha-lee if you don't want to run PCC once approved that's fine, that's why I also have a pistol. But I can almost guarantee it will be offered at WPGC Really? I don't recall anyone talking about adding separate shooting boxes or not including certain shooting challenges in a match with CO or Revolvers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 D-Striker wrote: I've never shot a 3 gun match... And that's sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 D-Striker wrote: I've never shot a 3 gun match... And that's sad. I have all of the guns for it. I would rather just focus on shooting pistols right now. Someday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 I have extra gear for you to use when your ready, I would hate to see you fishing shotgun shells from your pocket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Legality and not going full auto is on the shooter, not the RO. It will be up to shooters to make sure their equipment is division legal. Here is a novel idea, don't buy something you may or not be able to use. We will see how that works out when the USPSA club gets kicked out of the range for allowing full auto shooting to happen intentionally or not. It won't matter who's fault it is the club will simply be done. If the ATF shows up to a match to check for legal firearm ownership do you really think the host club and or range will be 100% immune to the situation? The club after all is providing public venue for people to perform illegal activities. Yet again another opportunity to have the USPSA club kicked out of the host range. As for people buying the correct PCC to fit within division rules that don't even exist, that is kind of difficult when all of the promoters of this probably already have PCC's that they want to use in a match. I know a lot of people don't need much excuse to buy another firearm, but it will piss people off that thay can't use what they already own. "Allowing" full auto shooting? In the ATF's view, a malfunctioning firearm that fires more than one at a time is full auto. You think USPSA is going to get booted for someone's sear or disconnector being worn out? "Providing a public venue for people to perform illegal activities"? Really? Is the club putting out a flyer for "Screw the BATFE Day"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 I have extra gear for you to use when your ready, I would hate to see you fishing shotgun shells from your pocket It'd probably be just as fast for me. I'm retarded when it comes to loading shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 (edited) I've never shot a 3 gun match but I came across this video from Area 6 today. I don't see any shots in this match, other than clays, that couldn't be performed with a PCC. Why couldn't PCC be rolled out with multi-gun where a rule set exists for them. They just shoot the entire match with PCC. 1) That match is very unusual. Many/most 3-Gun matches include rifle targets out to 500M and beyond, so PCC is not viable. 2) The clue is in the name of the sport - there are three guns required. A lot of PCCers are not interested in shooting a shotgun. As has been pointed out, handgun stages are a much better fit for PCC than are 3-Gun stages. Come out and shoot a 3-Gun and you will see. Hell, try it and you might get bored with handgun and come over to the dark side Edited February 5, 2016 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 As using a PCC in 3gun, some matches do allow you to use them, they're not the popular choice. PCC recoil more then a .223, and once you get past 50 yards its a crap shoot. A JP GMR-13 might group 3MOA at a 100, but not many will spend the 2g's to buy one... yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 (edited) I've never shot a 3 gun match but I came across this video from Area 6 today. I don't see any shots in this match, other than clays, that couldn't be performed with a PCC. Why couldn't PCC be rolled out with multi-gun where a rule set exists for them. They just shoot the entire match with PCC. 1) That match is very unusual. Many/most 3-Gun matches include rifle targets out to 500M and beyond, so PCC is not viable. 2) The clue is in the name of the sport - there are three guns required. A lot of PCCers are not interested in shooting a shotgun. As has been pointed out, handgun stages are a much better fit for PCC than are 3-Gun stages. Come out and shoot a 3-Gun and you will see. Hell, try it and you might get bored with handgun and come over to the dark side I think that's where the disagreement is. The fact that some handgun stages cannot be completed without special accommodation means that it's not a good fit. With there being more and more 2 gun matches popping up to address the shotgun issue you brought up, PCC would be a much better fit. Either the match can make an accommodation and not put targets out past 100 yards or the PCC's can just shoot the handgun stages. Edited February 5, 2016 by d_striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Legality and not going full auto is on the shooter, not the RO. It will be up to shooters to make sure their equipment is division legal. Here is a novel idea, don't buy something you may or not be able to use. We will see how that works out when the USPSA club gets kicked out of the range for allowing full auto shooting to happen intentionally or not. It won't matter who's fault it is the club will simply be done. If the ATF shows up to a match to check for legal firearm ownership do you really think the host club and or range will be 100% immune to the situation? The club after all is providing public venue for people to perform illegal activities. Yet again another opportunity to have the USPSA club kicked out of the host range.As for people buying the correct PCC to fit within division rules that don't even exist, that is kind of difficult when all of the promoters of this probably already have PCC's that they want to use in a match. I know a lot of people don't need much excuse to buy another firearm, but it will piss people off that thay can't use what they already own. "Allowing" full auto shooting? In the ATF's view, a malfunctioning firearm that fires more than one at a time is full auto. You think USPSA is going to get booted for someone's sear or disconnector being worn out? "Providing a public venue for people to perform illegal activities"? Really? Is the club putting out a flyer for "Screw the BATFE Day"? Interestingly enough 5.1.11 prohibits use of handguns capable of burst or full auto. Wonder if that should carry over to a PCC? I would think there is a reason USPSA forbids it and it seems reasonable the same concern would still apply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 As using a PCC in 3gun, some matches do allow you to use them, they're not the popular choice. PCC recoil more then a .223, and once you get past 50 yards its a crap shoot. A JP GMR-13 might group 3MOA at a 100, but not many will spend the 2g's to buy one... yet. I can drill clay pigeons at 100 yards with my 9mm carbine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 Now add a timer and about 30 secs of Hosing just before you make that shot offhand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 (edited) So since it's a hard shot, you want to shoot pistol targets/distances with a rifle? Edited February 5, 2016 by d_striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 (edited) Interestingly enough 5.1.11 prohibits use of handguns capable of burst or full auto. Wonder if that should carry over to a PCC? I would think there is a reason USPSA forbids it and it seems reasonable the same concern would still apply My assumption is that full auto and burst fire would continue to be prohibited. Machine pistols have existed for more than 100 years, but I don't hear a lot about them being mis-used at USPSA handgun matches. I don't know why we would expect PCCs to be any more problematic. Edited February 5, 2016 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 So since it's hard shot, you want to shoot pistol distance with a rifle? Yes. With my PCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now