Take my fishing vest - please

[Thomas H]

To the OP, I hope you're not LE. If all your focus and practice is on programming/remembering how to move fast and shoot faster, it could get you and your department in hot water some day. If you're not LE, the same focus could have the same effect if you actually carry in daily life.

If all you want to do is be the best and fastest USPSA competitor on the planet, go for it, but you should probably leave your gun at home unless you're shooting a match.

This attitude, I'll note, is why many people make fun of IDPA shooters. (Noting that I realize that this attitude/value set is not actually indicative of IDPA shooters as a whole---there are just enough of them to make it bad for everyone else.)

The OP's comment wasn't anything like what was said above, and even better, the response above didn't actually attempt to discuss any of the OP's discuss-able points, which were:

1) in practice most folks adapt a specialized idpa garment that they would never wear outside of a match

and

2) some folks are open carry people anyway.

It also included the seemingly-obligatory USPSA bash, for no apparent reason.

Since the OP never said anything about "all your focus and practice" much less what exactly it was all about, the above doesn't really help much.

I'll note that if more people worked on "how to move fast and shoot faster" it would indeed help them in self-defense situations. Many LEOs could also use some work on learning to shoot better.

Since none of that is actually relevant to a discussion of the game/sport of IDPA, how about we get back to discussing the sport?

I personally think that IDPA should stick with cover garments---noting at the same time that since I can't carry with my actual carry holster/mag pouch equipment method, I just use a vest specifically for competition also. I had to buy a holster/mag pouch setup just to shoot IDPA, and since I had to do that (and cannot therefore practice with my actual carry gear) I might as well maximize any advantage I can get.

[Beastly]

To the OP, I hope you're not LE. If all your focus and practice is on programming/remembering how to move fast and shoot faster, it could get you and your department in hot water some day. If you're not LE, the same focus could have the same effect if you actually carry in daily life.If all you want to do is be the best and fastest USPSA competitor on the planet, go for it, but you should probably leave your gun at home unless you're shooting a match.

Nice threadjack attempt. Feel free to start your own thread and pursue your 'anti-competition' agenda.

[IHAVEGAS]

Ha, IDPA does allow the LE folks to wear their duty rigs I wonder if there is some way I could word smith that into supporting my no fishing vest perspective ? Not serious, in truth, since it seems like other folks are aok with the vest then I shall be aok with it too.

"Nice threadjack attempt. Feel free to start your own thread and pursue your 'anti-competition' agenda."

Probably my fault, hard to start a thread about fishing vests and not find somebody who wants to do some fishing.

[jdlincoln]

There was no seemingly obligitory USPSA bash in my post. If you read my other posts, you will realize that I do shoot both, and enjoy both.

The point I was trying to make is that I don't think programming oneself only to shoot and move as fast as possible is the most prudent way to train if you happen to carry a handgun in your daily life. I also certainly was not trying to hijack the thread, and there was no anti-competition adjenda, only replying to a statement made with MY opinion. FWIW

[thermobollocks]

I'd still prefer to be the person who gets alphas faster and moves from point A to point B more easily.

[Thomas H]

The point I was trying to make is that I don't think programming oneself only to shoot and move as fast as possible is the most prudent way to train if you happen to carry a handgun in your daily life.

Since no one said that, it wasn't really relevant.

I also certainly was not trying to hijack the thread, and there was no anti-competition adjenda, only replying to a statement made with MY opinion. FWIW

On a completely different topic, in response to something that no one said. Yep, I can see how that isn't a hijack at all.

Back to the point of the thread:

IHAVEGAS, I would be downright shocked if IDPA ever gave up the cover garment---IDPA (in general) has this mental image of itself as "practical realistic concealed carry" which means a fairly automatic rejection of anything that it deems "less realistic" for "the streets." As such, losing the "concealed" part of their "realistic scenarios" just is something I don't see happening.

And like I said, I'm actually good with it. It makes for a twist on the shooting game, so it is something new to work with. (Granted, I now have to practice three different draws---USPSA, IDPA, and my actual carry draw---but that's life. Variety is interesting.)

[motosapiens]

The point I was trying to make is that I don't think programming oneself only to shoot and move as fast as possible is the most prudent way to train if you happen to carry a handgun in your daily life.

Not sure what you mean by 'programming'. I have never found that training for a competitive sport has much effect on my behavior in daily life. I play hockey, but I don't jump in front of people and maintain body position in the checkout line at the grocery store. I raced motorcycles for years, but it didn't change the way I rode outside of racing (except making me more skilled and attentive).

I think most people can tell the difference between a paper target in a game and a real threat, and will treat them differently.

Edited December 17, 2015 by motosapiens

[Rangerdug]

To the OP, I hope you're not LE. If all your focus and practice is on programming/remembering how to move fast and shoot faster, it could get you and your department in hot water some day. If you're not LE, the same focus could have the same effect if you actually carry in daily life.

If all you want to do is be the best and fastest USPSA competitor on the planet, go for it, but you should probably leave your gun at home unless you're shooting a match.

What does that mean? Using IDPA as the context, trying to apply your statement; lets for a second look at what you are implying to the real world. The world where targets shoot back. In most shooting situations whether LE or a carry situations, you are in a total reactive situation, immediately put on the defensive. In short you are losing, especially if you brought only a pistol to a gunfight. There are no "shooter ready" and "standby" calls to get your head right. You have lost surprise and initiative. That being said you have to counter your deficits with speed and violence. Meaning you have to move fast and shoot faster, than your opponent. That is the real world.

Understanding IDPA is still a shooting game, with a clock. Where the two worlds intersect is how the scorecards tally in the end.The fastest shooter with the best hits wins.

[Miranda]

To the OP, I hope you're not LE. If all your focus and practice is on programming/remembering how to move fast and shoot faster, it could get you and your department in hot water some day. If you're not LE, the same focus could have the same effect if you actually carry in daily life.

If all you want to do is be the best and fastest USPSA competitor on the planet, go for it, but you should probably leave your gun at home unless you're shooting a match.

What does that mean? Using IDPA as the context, trying to apply your statement; lets for a second look at what you are implying to the real world. The world where targets shoot back. In most shooting situations whether LE or a carry situations, you are in a total reactive situation, immediately put on the defensive. In short you are losing, especially if you brought only a pistol to a gunfight. There are no "shooter ready" and "standby" calls to get your head right. You have lost surprise and initiative. That being said you have to counter your deficits with speed and violence. Meaning you have to move fast and shoot faster, than your opponent. That is the real world.

Understanding IDPA is still a shooting game, with a clock. Where the two worlds intersect is how the scorecards tally in the end.The fastest shooter with the best hits wins.

this forum is about competitive shooting.

I was given a bit of advice by a lawyer who was aware of a problem neighbor I had.

the reason I had a lawyer... he said that if the police ever happened to accuse me of harming said problem

AND it was discovered I was in those games...

I would be accused of premeditation.

I train myself and expect I will never need to use the skills.

I want to compete because it is fun to show you have learned something worth knowing.

I stay outta the woods to avoid bears.

miranda

[Swanny10]

The point I was trying to make is that I don't think programming oneself only to shoot and move as fast as possible is the most prudent way to train if you happen to carry a handgun in your daily life.

Not sure what you mean by 'programming'. I have never found that training for a competitive sport has much effect on my behavior in daily life. I play hockey, but I don't jump in front of people and maintain body position in the checkout line at the grocery store. I raced motorcycles for years, but it didn't change the way I rode outside of racing (except making me more skilled and attentive).

I think most people can tell the difference between a paper target in a game and a real threat, and will treat them differently.

^This^

[gose]

IDPA is a sport based on concealed carry and defensive shooting. Concealed carry is basic principle, so no - it is never going away.

If you want to game - wear a vest. They provide several advantages.

If you want to shoot what you carry and wear, then do so. Many shooters do.

I usually carry AIWB, which isnt allowed, so to shoot IDPA I'd have to adopt a different way of carrying than what I do off range. I understand the reasoning behind it, but not allowing me to shoot and carry the way I normally do defeats the purpose of IDPA for me and I might as well just shoot USPSA instead.

[GOF]

That's a good point. If IDPA won't let you shoot like 'you carry' then it is not good practice/training for you. So, if you have to change out from your normal EDC gear, why not shoot USPSA.

[NewColonial]

I use the same holster in the same position generally for both games. The cover garment I wear is based on the weather. I do prefer a dedicated vest so that I don't end up with gun dirt inside my "street clothes." Or accidentally carry live rounds into some federal zone later.

FWIW, the last time I ignored a "gun free zone" sign and went to the movies, I saw TWO different guys wearing 5.11 vests, so it does happen.

[Manwithnoname]

To the OP, I hope you're not LE. If all your focus and practice is on programming/remembering how to move fast and shoot faster, it could get you and your department in hot water some day. If you're not LE, the same focus could have the same effect if you actually carry in daily life.

If all you want to do is be the best and fastest USPSA competitor on the planet, go for it, but you should probably leave your gun at home unless you're shooting a match.

This attitude, I'll note, is why many people make fun of IDPA shooters. (Noting that I realize that this attitude/value set is not actually indicative of IDPA shooters as a whole---there are just enough of them to make it bad for everyone else.)

The OP's comment wasn't anything like what was said above, and even better, the response above didn't actually attempt to discuss any of the OP's discuss-able points, which were:

1) in practice most folks adapt a specialized idpa garment that they would never wear outside of a match

and

2) some folks are open carry people anyway.

It also included the seemingly-obligatory USPSA bash, for no apparent reason.

Since the OP never said anything about "all your focus and practice" much less what exactly it was all about, the above doesn't really help much.

I'll note that if more people worked on "how to move fast and shoot faster" it would indeed help them in self-defense situations. Many LEOs could also use some work on learning to shoot better.

Since none of that is actually relevant to a discussion of the game/sport of IDPA, how about we get back to discussing the sport?

I personally think that IDPA should stick with cover garments---noting at the same time that since I can't carry with my actual carry holster/mag pouch equipment method, I just use a vest specifically for competition also. I had to buy a holster/mag pouch setup just to shoot IDPA, and since I had to do that (and cannot therefore practice with my actual carry gear) I might as well maximize any advantage I can get.

Continuing with your thought, should race car drivers not drive on public roads? I would think a race car driver in a mini van would be a better every day driver than most. As in a gun fight I think a GM with tactical training would win most encounters. Now race car drivers crash and GMs make mistakes but that's human nature.

[GARD72977]

This has turned in to justification for a slow Marksman to have a good reason to remain slow and not practice. He is just being tactical and using good judgement.

[IronArcher]

While I understand the reason for the vest, the rule has been gamed to a logical end.

While not nonexistent, few wear the fishing vest for EDC.

If most don't use it, there is virtually zero connection to "realistic" shooting.

This admittedly is from a newbie, so take it for what it is worth.

The vest no longer serves a logical purpose (while AIWB actually does serve the purpose for the vest).

Edited January 9, 2016 by IronArcher

[v1911]

While I understand the reason for the vest, the rule has been gamed to a logical end.

While not nonexistent, few wear the fishing vest for EDC.

If most don't use it, there is virtually zero connection to "realistic" shooting.

This admittedly is from a newbie, so take it for what it is worth.

The vest no longer serves a logical purpose (while AIWB actually does serve the purpose for the vest).

I've seen plenty of shooters use a Hawaiian shirt or bowling shirt a a cover garment. They quite often also use their actual carry gun and IWB holster. The vest is just the gamer's choice for a cover garment.

Monkey see, monkey do.

When you 1st show up to a new sport, it's natural for people to see what others are using. And lets face it, in any competitive sport, we take a closer look at what the winners are using. Then we justify in our heads (and for some, wives) that it's the gear that will help propel us to where we want to be.

Edited January 9, 2016 by v1911

[IronArcher]

OOooooo....problem solved???

[Distant Thunder]

OOooooo....problem solved???

Now you're being just plain silly ... I'll take an extra large in forest green.

[IHAVEGAS]

Make mine camo, and write "tactical" somewhere on a label or something !

[jcc7x7]

you'll glut the market with used fishing vests if they get rid of the cover garment