Take my fishing vest - please

[IHAVEGAS]

I like steels and IDPA and USPSA. All sports have their rules and there are rules in the latter two sports that I would revise if I were King.

That said, the only rule I know of that is a major pain for me in the long term is the IDPA cover garment rule. It is hard to train yourself to do your best & safest IDPA draw on Saturday & then do your best and safest other sport draw on Sunday.

I wonder if there is any chance that the rule might be lifted, assuming others feel the same way?

In purpose I can see the reasoning behind the rule, but in practice most folks adapt a specialized idpa garment that they would never wear outside of a match and some folks are open carry people anyway, so it seems like the rule does not really accomplish much.

Agree / disagree / believe there is any chance the rule could be lifted ??

Edited November 15, 2015 by IHAVEGAS

[jdlincoln]

I agree that there are some that use a garmet that's "only" for a match, including myself. My match vest is designed to be the coolest cover garmet (temp wise) I have only for that reason. I do not open carry, even though I could where I live. I believe that even here in the free state of Vermont, such a practice is not seen often and would freak out many of the imported tree huggers we have. So...I think the "concealment" aspect of the rules makes for good practice. After all, IWB holsters are legal, and quite a few use them in matches because thats what they carry in. I've even seen competitors at our local USPSA matches using IWB and drawing from concealment in Production and Single Stack.

I consider both disiplines good for safe efficient gun handling and dynamic target practice skills, nothing more. Which is why I shoot both. But I do hate the "airgunning" in the one sport.

JD

[v1911]

The change in holster would be a bigger factor than the cover garment.

I know one IDPA master shooter that uses the same holster for 3 different sports. He was so accustom to his IDPA rig that the slight variance for his USPSA rig caused him issues when drawing. This was a shooter that made master by practicing right and being naturally agile. His draw was so fine tuned, just his holster being a 1/2" different was given him fits.

I've drawn from concealment for IDPA and w/o for multi gun matches. Doesn't change a darn thing for me.

[45 Raven]

Agree/disagree? Agree

Believe the rule could be lifted? Not a chance

[GARD72977]

Concealment garment is about the only rule that makes sense. I actually like it

[rowdyb]

drawing the gun from concealment is one of the things that makes idpa well, idpa. that and shooting from cover, a stage with a scenario, shooting in priority and slide lock reloads. it wouldn't be idpa without and i hope that it wouldn't be something changed.

there are quite a few really good shooters who stick with a belt holster with no drop and offset and behind their hip bone for all of their shooting sports and different divisions for this very reason. (i'm not one, i like having totally different set ups as it's helpful for me to make a mental switch as well as a physical switch between the games)

i just wear the standard 5.11 tactical vest, either cotton or taclite material.

Edited November 15, 2015 by rowdyb

[IHAVEGAS]

Ok, knowing that some folks like the thing actually makes it easy for me to put up with it.

If everybody else thought the same way I do it would be a dumb rule, as it it just looks like a rule I do not like.

[Beastly]

This is the least of my concerns wth IDPA rules.

[ES13Raven]

IDPA is a sport based on concealed carry and defensive shooting. Concealed carry is basic principle, so no - it is never going away.

If you want to game - wear a vest. They provide several advantages.

If you want to shoot what you carry and wear, then do so. Many shooters do.

[agwoodard]

There isn't a single rule in IDPA that makes a lick of sense. They are just rules. They don't have to make sense, and, if it's "just a club match" adhered to.

[BillR1]

IDPA is a sport based on concealed carry and defensive shooting. Concealed carry is basic principle, so no - it is never going away.

If you want to game - wear a vest. They provide several advantages.

If you want to shoot what you carry and wear, then do so. Many shooters do.

This!

I remember a group of shooters in our squad at the Michigan state match a few years ago shooting in Hawaiian shirts. They had a great time and did fairly well IIRC.

Edited November 16, 2015 by BillR1

[Willz]

IDPA in the true spirit of the sport would restrict you to only your Concealed Carry rig and daily wear.

In the summer for me it's shorts a t-shirt and IWB holster appendix carry with my G30 and two G21 mags for reloads. The G30 10 round mag in the gun and the G21 mags loaded to full 13 rounds. In winter it's IWB at 4 o'clock with a G21 and two mags all fully loaded under a light jacket or heavy coat.

IDPA is a game and the have to standardize certain aspects to keep it as even as possible.

In the end it's a game. Gamers gonna game it.

[FWSixgunner]

IDPA in the true spirit of the sport would restrict you to only your Concealed Carry rig and daily wear.

In the summer for me it's shorts a t-shirt and IWB holster appendix carry with my G30 and two G21 mags for reloads. The G30 10 round mag in the gun and the G21 mags loaded to full 13 rounds. In winter it's IWB at 4 o'clock with a G21 and two mags all fully loaded under a light jacket or heavy coat.

IDPA is a game and the have to standardize certain aspects to keep it as even as possible.

In the end it's a game. Gamers gonna game it.

I agree. As I just said in another post, seems to me they're trying to cater to the "realist" and gamers and not doing either very well. My guess is opening up more to gaming is an attempt to pull in USPSA shooters.

I refuse to buy a "shoot me first" vest only for the purpose of matches. I wear a big fishing shirt that I actually do wear other places.

Unfortunately, "Daily wear" is a nebulous term. What if someone is retired and really does wear a fishing vest daily?

Seriously, how many civilian CHL holders carry a BUG? For most, a BUG is their carry gun.

If they wanted to make it real, they should have a pocket pistol division.

At the end of the day, if you don't want to wear a cover garment, shoot something else.

I'm still waiting for the jump buck-naked & soaking wet out of the shower COF.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited November 17, 2015 by FWSixgunner

[Gryff]

I like the rule and hope it doesn't change. Although IDPA isn't training, it is inspired by some CCW/self-defense fundamentals. The cover garment is one them, regardless of the fact that 5.11 Vests are the de facto standard. The game has rules, and people who want to win will try to use the best equipment allowed within those rules.

As for transitioning between IDPA and USPSA, practice more. With enough practice, you can learn to deal with the differences between drawing with a garment on versus without one.

I wonder if there is any chance that the rule might be lifted, assuming others feel the same way?

In purpose I can see the reasoning behind the rule, but in practice most folks adapt a specialized idpa garment that they would never wear outside of a match and some folks are open carry people anyway, so it seems like the rule does not really accomplish much.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Gryff

[IHAVEGAS]

As for transitioning between IDPA and USPSA, practice more. With enough practice, you can learn to deal with the differences between drawing with a garment on versus without one.

I don't think that the human mind works that way, I think the better you program yourself through repetition the more difficult it is to discard that programming when something changes and you need to do things differently.

Or maybe I am just a one trick pony.

In any case, for me I think the answer is choose the sport that means the most to you & practice for that one, so I just do all my practice with USPSA/Steels stuff & then slow draw & slow reload for IDPA matches.

[Thomas H]

I don't think that the human mind works that way, I think the better you program yourself through repetition the more difficult it is to discard that programming when something changes and you need to do things differently.

I think you can program yourself for more than one different set of circumstances.

Every time you open a door, do you do it from cover?

Edited December 3, 2015 by Thomas H

[ES13Raven]

I don't think that the human mind works that way, I think the better you program yourself through repetition the more difficult it is to discard that programming when something changes and you need to do things differently.

I think you can program yourself for more than one different set of circumstances.

I have no problem switching between sports. I don't ever drop loaded mags on the run in IDPA, or shoot everything from cover in USPSA.

I do keep my equipment in a similar configuration, which helps (SSP & Production).

Edited December 3, 2015 by ES13Raven

[eern]

I have not shot IDPA (not against it just have the opportunity to shoot USPSA most nights so I do that instead), but agree that the vest, cover, priority, etc.. those are the things that make it IDPA and I think they should stay. I don't think switching gear is a big deal. I shoot every division, but open and then carry a pocket gun off duty and my normal duty rig while on. I have never had a problem switching from one to the other. I have practiced it all and even under stress have not had any hang-ups.

[Miranda]

it will be: "shoot as you are."

training is funny stuff. it never hurts to learn. (ok anything I can think up at the moment )

one of the things one should learn is that the training is not going to always have the required answer.

If you want to do well in IDPA, the rules set point out a vest is a good path to win the game.

If you want IDPA to help you train for real life shoot-outs

I suggest you consider avoiding shoot-outs? and if that

seems unavoidable, perhaps training with a kevlar vest...

y'all worry about the strangest things.

miranda

[IHAVEGAS]

I don't think that the human mind works that way, I think the better you program yourself through repetition the more difficult it is to discard that programming when something changes and you need to do things differently.

I think you can program yourself for more than one different set of circumstances.

Every time you open a door, do you do it from cover?

May just be a personal limitation. Whenever I change anything it has so far required an adjustment period and there has been a tendency to revert back to the old programming under time pressure. Not an issue if I slow things down, but a big issue for me on the things that I want too be able to do well automatically and with best speed.

[9x45]

There isn't a single rule in IDPA that makes a lick of sense. They are just rules. They don't have to make sense, and, if it's "just a club match" adhered to.

No, that's not true. You are just trying to make sense out of a game. So, while IDPA is popularly believed to be real world, practical and tactical, etc, it is, in fact, just the opposite of USPSA rules. After all it was invented by Bill Wilson and his IPSC homies. The problem with IDPA today is the ranks have filled with "Tactical Plumbers" 17 time graduates of Front Sight who think a 7 second and 4 points down Bill Drill is bad ass. So when I used to shoot IDPA, I did it with my actual CCW G19 from an IWB holster under a Hawaiian shirt with horizontal mag pouches running full house 127 +P+ rounds.

[MJPLEO]

I've never owned a vest for the 3 years that I've been shooting IDPA. I prefer to wear a very close fitting pancake kydex rig at 4:00 with a t-shirt or sweat shirt instead of the vest. I'm think I was the only one (I did place 4th CDP SS) at the WA IDPA match this past summer competing this way. I'm odd anyway though, I ran an HK45 for the match...another IDPA anomaly.

The pics below are of the type of rig I run and one of me running the wobbly bridge stage at the WA State Match this past summer...no vest.

Find what works and enjoy, it's just a game, right???...lol

Edited December 13, 2015 by MJPLEO

[Swanny10]

No, that's not true. You are just trying to make sense out of a game.

This is a really good point. In all sports, whenever there is a rule change, people around the sport are quick to debate if the changes "make sense". But they rarely step back and look at the original rules of the game. Or even just the game itself. Did it "make sense" to hang a peach basket on a pole and throw a ball into it? Did it "make sense" to throw a ball on the ground and tell people to put it in a net without using your hands?

Now people can debate if a given rule change accomplishes what the rulemakers were trying to do. Or if there was a better way to accomplish that change. Or even if the rulemakers were being honest about their intentions.

But the moment an effort is made to make the competition "fair" it becomes a sport/game. Now that game may provide some ancillary benefits outside of the game. But it's still a game.

[Rangerdug]

There isn't a single rule in IDPA that makes a lick of sense. They are just rules. They don't have to make sense, and, if it's "just a club match" adhered to.

Thank God, that the only IDPA rule I generally agree within the L.E./Military tactical duty gear exemption. I like IDPA for the tactical side, and before I am called a Hater I like shooting IDPA; However, it is a sport that isn't flexible and does not evolve (at least here in Colorado). I have never seen a sport that has so many rule monkey's, that don't know the rules themselves.

[jdlincoln]

To the OP, I hope you're not LE. If all your focus and practice is on programming/remembering how to move fast and shoot faster, it could get you and your department in hot water some day. If you're not LE, the same focus could have the same effect if you actually carry in daily life.

If all you want to do is be the best and fastest USPSA competitor on the planet, go for it, but you should probably leave your gun at home unless you're shooting a match.