DA/SA Production gun at Half Cock holstered with safety off = DQ?

[Nik Habicht]

Competitive Equity -- i.e. move to open. Shooter loads SA or Selective Action gun, lowers hammer to half-cock, applies safety and holsters the gun. That's a competitive equity problem and under Appendix D4 and Rule 6.2.5.1 the correct penalty is a move to open. There's no issue with the requirements in Section 8.1.2, nor is there a violation of 10.5.11

>>It's not a competitive equity problem unless the shooter starts the stage that way. Just like having hands in the wrong start position.

Safety issue, i.e. match DQ: Shooter loads SA or Selective Action gun, lowers hammer to half-cock, does not apply safety and holsters the gun. That's a violation of our sport's safety rules -- and a match DQ is unfortunately called for under 10.5.11

>>As concerning a selective action gun, that only appears to be your opinion. I still see nothing from DNROI that supports that opinion.

see bolded comments above.

I appreciate your contributions, but I still think you are using pretty strained logic to argue a DQ, and I still think anything that's a DQ should be pretty clear, not a gray area where a variety of smart and experienced people have thought about the topic at length and still come to opposite conclusions.

I'm all in favor of clearing it up -- I think we're clear on hammer fully cocked and hammer fully down. It's hammer at half-cock where you and I disagree.......

Troy's interpretation actually doesn't say anything about it not being a competitive equity problem until after the start signal. 6.2.5.1 indicates that it's a move to open during the course of fire -- which we know begins at Make Ready......

So once the shooter holsters that way, you will follow the interpretation and move him to open, right?

[motosapiens]

So once the shooter holsters that way, you will follow the interpretation and move him to open, right?

Of course. That appears to be pretty clear, and it makes some logical sense as well. I had this exact situation come up at A1 and didn't know better, but now I do.

[Poppa Bear]

No matter where you come down on the DQ / Bump to open debate, what is needed is some guidance from the match officials to the shooters at the shooters meeting to ensure that everyone understands that going to the half cock position on a production gun will at a minimum move you to open and at worst get you DQ’ed. The addition of select fire guns to the Production list has created some confusion.

During our meeting I had a shooter this past weekend who asked if he could start at the cocked and locked position because his read of the rule book (8.1.2.3) did not address the issue. He then asked if he could start at the half cocked position. Once it was pointed out that the (see Divisions in Appendix D) at the end of the rule was also applicable and that D4 covers Production requirements that the hammer be fully down he understood why we said he had a choice of either shooting in Production or Lim Minor.

It will take some time before this becomes common enough knowledge that it will no longer be an issue.

[Nik Habicht]

It will take some time before this becomes common enough knowledge that it will no longer be an issue.

Really? I thought the DQ part was clear ~ 13 years ago when I took my first RO class......

But maybe that's a regional thing.....

[Poppa Bear]

It will take some time before this becomes common enough knowledge that it will no longer be an issue.

Really? I thought the DQ part was clear ~ 13 years ago when I took my first RO class......

But maybe that's a regional thing.....

DQ Yes

Proper divisional start condition of a select fire pistol that may or may not have a decocker? No Otherwise this thread would not have stretched into 7 pages.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Poppa Bear

[motosapiens]

It will take some time before this becomes common enough knowledge that it will no longer be an issue.

Really? I thought the DQ part was clear ~ 13 years ago when I took my first RO class......

But maybe that's a regional thing.....

I think the DQ part is extremely unclear, and probably not even correct.

I shoot CZ's tho, so I was pretty solid on the proper start position of decocker-equipped guns vs non-decocker. Actually I think most everyone was pretty clear on what the start positions were. This whole thread is about the corrective actions and/or penalties, which were not clear at all before, and now are slightly clearer.

[Gary Stevens]

Well as one who might easily have to make this very call, all I can say is it is clear as mud.

[bret]

If a production gun is holstered, hammer back, no safety,DQ?

[Nik Habicht]

If a production gun is holstered, hammer back, no safety,DQ?

Yep.....

[9x45]

Troy just answered that on page 7/8 in Nov/Dec Front Sight.

[sperman]

I didn't keep my Front Sight. Can you please quote what he said?

[bikerburgess]

I don't have mine in front of me to quote but the take away is. Hammer back, safety not on =DQ Hammer back is anything other than all the way down or where a decocker put it.

Honestly I don't think it really occurred to people that don't shoot production that you could or would holster without the safety on it's just not something they think about because for most of our history people have shot mostly 19/2011s or GLOCKs so it was either safety all the time or no safety at all.

[waktasz]

He also said holstering a production gun at half cock with the safety on was a bump to Open.

I feel like as long as you correct it before firing a shot that that interpretation is incorrect.

[bikerburgess]

I would agree on the bump to open only applying after the start signal.

[ac4wordplay]

He also said holstering a production gun at half cock with the safety on was a bump to Open.

I feel like as long as you correct it before firing a shot that that interpretation is incorrect.

You wrote: "...before firing a shot..."

Do you actually mean what you wrote? Or do you mean something slightly different? (Something like before the start signal comes to my mind.) If you actually meant what you wrote, I'm curious about your reasoning - why would that be your choice, vs. before the start signal?

Respectfully,

ac

[d_striker]

If a production gun is holstered, hammer back, no safety,DQ?

Yes...."Hammer back" also includes being at half-cock with a non-decocker gun.

From the article:

"....placing it in the holster with the hammer at half cock and the safety not applied, is a DQ."

[Nimitz]

He also said holstering a production gun at half cock with the safety on was a bump to Open.

I feel like as long as you correct it before firing a shot that that interpretation is incorrect.

Not sure I understand this ... Isn't DNROI's interpretation the ONLY one that counts?

[waktasz]

He also said holstering a production gun at half cock with the safety on was a bump to Open.

I feel like as long as you correct it before firing a shot that that interpretation is incorrect.

You wrote: "...before firing a shot..."

Do you actually mean what you wrote? Or do you mean something slightly different? (Something like before the start signal comes to my mind.) If you actually meant what you wrote, I'm curious about your reasoning - why would that be your choice, vs. before the start signal?

Respectfully,

ac

Before the start signal yes. I misspoke.

[waktasz]

He also said holstering a production gun at half cock with the safety on was a bump to Open.

I feel like as long as you correct it before firing a shot that that interpretation is incorrect.

Not sure I understand this ... Isn't DNROI's interpretation the ONLY one that counts?

If it's not published on the website I don't believe it counts at all.

Besides, is it impossible for DNROI to misinterpret the rules? I don't think that it is. He is not infallible.

App D4 - "Special conditions:

— Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal, "

Edited November 28, 2015 by waktasz

[ChuckS]

This is what I see from an RO perspective under the current rule book.

Appendix D4 as quoted about draws the line at the start signal.

OK,so what does an RO do should the production shooter 1/2 cock/safety/holster?

8.1 puts the responsibility on the shooter:

8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions
The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the writ-ten stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun.

After the RO gives the "mark ready" command, the shooter can do pretty much what they want that is not a safety violation. Let's say that they do the 1/2 cock/safety/holster thing. Now, when the shooter assumes the start position, I don't think the shooter can be bumped at this point since we have not yet crossed the threshold defined in D4.

Is the RO under any obligation to withhold "Are You Ready?"? Look at 8.3.1:

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and hearing protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the specified start position. The Range Officer will not proceed with any further range commands until the competitor is still and is in the correct start position.

So, the RO is not prohibited from starting the shooter unless they are out of position and/or moving, The RO can start the shooter and inform them after the course of fire that they have been moved to open/no score as appropriate.

After looking at this is way too much detail, I don't think there is any need to clarify/change anything. If D4 is changed to

"Special conditions: — Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal Make Ready or Standby, "

there would be an arb where the shooter says they were not ready yet and the RO screwed up. The current rule eliminates this possible arb by taking the shooter to the start signal.

Now, should the RO say something? Look at 8.6.1:

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

So, IMHO, the current rules cover the situation, the shooter screwed up and was moved to open, and the RO is under no obligation to correct the situation and would be considered coaching if the RO did correct the shooter. I would let the shooter start, bump 'em, and let the RM sort it out...

[IronArcher]

Not under obligation, but:

"any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time."

Why not just say your warning him/her that the gun is not in a "safe" condition? If you would DQ them, you obviously must feel they are in an unsafe condition, hence you ARE allowed, not required, but allowed to mention something.

Personally, I think at least 1 warning (maybe 2) would be reasonable...after that, DQ away. Yes, by default, anything less to me would be unreasonable (especially if dealing with a newer competitor).

As for the "binary" condition of a gun as far as cocking. One could just as easily conclude that a gun is NOT cocked until the hammer is fully back.

The fact that 1/2 cock is perfectly safe (hammer down vs. cocked if thinking binary) on guns with a decocking lever that drops to half cock, would imply that 1/2 cock, especially when activated by a DECOCKING lever is NOT cocked. If you have to look at it in a binary context, this would mean that 1/2 cock is NOT cocked.

Therefore, NOT a DQ, but a change in class.

PERSONALLY (and this has nothing to do with the current rules as written) I feel safer dropping my hammer to 1/2 cock than dropping that hammer right over the firing pin with my finger on the trigger (disabling the firing pin block on my Tanfoglio).
​I understand this would supposedly be a competitive advantage (over whom? the guy at with a decocker at 1/2 cock, or the guy with the Glock and a 2# trigger?).
Are there ANY guns on the approved list that do NOT have a firing pin block, hammer block or some form of trigger and/or backstrap (not manual) safety? (seriously, I have no idea...guessing lawyers would have eliminated that question long ago). If not, would it not be safer to go to 1/2 cock than fully hammer down in Production where you can not remove the firing pin block? Dockers are at 1/2 cock, Glocks are quite effectively at 1/2 cock, why not everyone?

​Now obviously, we don't want guns that are SA only to be in half cock (they aren't in production anyway)... but seeing they don't often come with a decocking lever that drops them to 1/2 cock, the binary view on THOSE could be anything but hammer fully down = cocked, as when you pull the trigger, the hammer moves forward (just like in full cock). The exact opposite of what happens with a DA/SA (selective or not) weapon. At 1/2 cock, the trigger moves the hammer back to full cock before dropping it on the pin.

The easy definition of "cocked" could be that when the trigger is pulled the hammer moves forward.
Decocked means the hammer doesn't move. or moves reward (cocking) when pulled....if you must stick to a binary definition on a system with 3 options.

Edited January 11, 2016 by IronArcher

[IronArcher]

PERSONALLY (and this has nothing to do with the current rules as written) I feel safer dropping my hammer to 1/2 cock than dropping that hammer right over the firing pin with my finger on the trigger (disabling the firing pin block on my Tanfoglio).

Apparently, I am not alone...

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=219911

[CHA-LEE]

IronArcher> If you don't feel "Safe" with performing the required hammer decocking process per the rules with your EAA/Tanfo pistol, then get a different pistol that does not have you performing that process. Or simply shoot Limited division and leave the hammer cocked and thumb safety on.

[IronArcher]

It is not that I don't feel safe....just that I feel safer going to 1/2 cock.
There is no real competitive advantage gained from what I can see, why not do all we can to be as safe as we can?

[CHA-LEE]

There is a competitive advantage when the hammer is at half cock because the trigger is further back in the trigger guard.

I also want to know how you feel "Less Safe" with the hammer all the way down. Primers require a significant striking force to go off. You would literally have to bash the back of the hammer with a real hammer HARD to set it off. That and your gun is only loaded and in this "Hammer Down" state for a relatively short amount of time between the Make Ready command and the Buzzer going off. Where ALL OF THAT TIME you are in focused control of the firearm with RO's observing the situation. If shooters had to walk around all day with a loaded & hammer down gun then it would be a different story. But that is not the case.

There are several options if you want to be "MORE" safe. Start with the hammer down on an empty chamber for example. The Rules don't state that you have to start with a round in the chamber. Or as I said before, pick a different gun that does not create the gun loaded condition you don't feel comfortable with.