motosapiens Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 I have been following this post and I am confused. SA/DA actions with a decocker are clear in the rule book. How many other SA/DA beside the CZ accu-shadow, do not have a decocker, but have a thumb safety, and a 1/2 cock notch. All cz da/sa's (regular shadow, 75b, 85b, 85c, p01, sp01, etcetera) are like that. I have no shadows, but 3 regular cz's that are so equpped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 The way I was taught it's a binary condition -- the gun is either cocked or it's not. A plain English reading of the rules seems to support that -- you only have two options when dealing with a Selective Action gun: It sounds like you're saying for selective action gun, it's a binary condition, but for a DA/decocker gun it's not. But clearly, if you examine a gun, it is NOT a binary condition, so it's silly to pretend as tho it is. I still don't like your reasoning that not conforming with the 'ready position' in 8.1 is grounds for a dq. In general, I don't think it's sensible to have a dq that is constructed by reading numerous different sections of the rules, and inferring some things from one rule and others from a different one. If you're going to dq someone, it should be clearly spelled out imho. In this case, I don't believe it is. A plain english reading of the rules seems to me to support a conclusion opposite of yours. I don't think that makes you stupid, I think that makes the rule inadequately written. Numerous different sections? An RO needs to read three rules -- it's not that complicated, especially when two of them are adjacent to each other, and the third one is referenced by the second...... Is it possible to apply the safety on a CZ-75b when the hammer is on the half-cock notch? From reading the manual -- it doesn't appear that way. 8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D). 8.1.2.4 With respect to Rules 8.1.2.1 and 8.1.2.3, the term “safety” means the primary visible safety lever on the handgun (e.g. the thumb safety on a “1911” genre handgun). In the event of doubt, the Range Master is the final authority on this matter. This safety must be on while the firearm is loaded in the holster or loaded in any other location stated in the WSB (e.g.: table start, in a drawer, etc). in order to be in compliance with 10.5.11 10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to: 10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions: 10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied. 10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer cocked and the safety not applied. 10.5.11.3 A revolver with the hammer cocked. All these conditions apply the entire time the handgun is in the holster. See 8.1.2.4 and the third rule points back toward the second -- the author could hardly have made this one easier..... But hey, what do I know -- I certainly haven't ever owned a CZ. Last but not least -- yep, I tend to be a little snarky when I'm not at work. I do that around my friends, and around random strangers and acquaintances. Please don't read into that and infer that I think you're stupid -- I enjoy a spirited debate, and am trying to push back in part to see what I might be missing. While I remain unconvinced by your argument, I keep thinking about it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 I have been following this post and I am confused. SA/DA actions with a decocker are clear in the rule book. How many other SA/DA beside the CZ accu-shadow, do not have a decocker, but have a thumb safety, and a 1/2 cock notch. All cz da/sa's (regular shadow, 75b, 85b, 85c, p01, sp01, etcetera) are like that. I have no shadows, but 3 regular cz's that are so equpped. Going strictly by the manuals on the CZ website, it seems that all Traditional DA/SA or decocker models are equipped with firing pin blocks (suggesting that a device will prevent ignition of a primer even if the hammer were to fall from half cock) where for the Selective Action models it's a bit more hit and miss on the firing pin block.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 bottom line is you appear to think that half-cocked = cocked. I don't, based on my reading of the rules, at least pending an official opinion from dnroi. IMHO, if the rules writers meant that cocked and half-cocked were the same thing on some guns, but not on others, they would have specifically said that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 I have been following this post and I am confused. SA/DA actions with a decocker are clear in the rule book. How many other SA/DA beside the CZ accu-shadow, do not have a decocker, but have a thumb safety, and a 1/2 cock notch. All cz da/sa's (regular shadow, 75b, 85b, 85c, p01, sp01, etcetera) are like that. I have no shadows, but 3 regular cz's that are so equpped. Going strictly by the manuals on the CZ website, it seems that all Traditional DA/SA or decocker models are equipped with firing pin blocks (suggesting that a device will prevent ignition of a primer even if the hammer were to fall from half cock) where for the Selective Action models it's a bit more hit and miss on the firing pin block.... this is true, but if you are shooting limited or l10 with your decocker-equipped cz, it is perfectly legal to remove the firing-pin-block, and you'll still start from half-cock. from a uspsa standpoint, firing pin blocks don't exist except in production, and even then no one cares about their safety function, just that they are OEM so you can't take them off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Response from Troy: It's certainly a violation of the division rules and would, at the very least, require a move to Open.As for the safety aspect, strictly reading 10.5.11.2, if the hammer was not fully down (and not in the position that the decocker would drop it to if one were being used), then yes, manually decocking to half cock and not applying the safety would violate that rule. Regards,Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 What I find fascinating about these type of questions is that I've asked them 13 years ago or so. NROI has been consistent in their answers, why isn't this spelled out in the rules or a NROI FAQ of some sort? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 bottom line is you appear to think that half-cocked = cocked. I don't, based on my reading of the rules, at least pending an official opinion from dnroi. IMHO, if the rules writers meant that cocked and half-cocked were the same thing on some guns, but not on others, they would have specifically said that. That's how the material was covered by multiple RMIs during RO classes -- if not fully down, then it's considered cocked and the safety needs to be on. Sounds like Troy is interpreting it the same way as John did..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 bottom line is you appear to think that half-cocked = cocked. I don't, based on my reading of the rules, at least pending an official opinion from dnroi. IMHO, if the rules writers meant that cocked and half-cocked were the same thing on some guns, but not on others, they would have specifically said that. That's how the material was covered by multiple RMIs during RO classes -- if not fully down, then it's considered cocked and the safety needs to be on. Sounds like Troy is interpreting it the same way as John did..... Sounds that way. Seems like the rulebook ought to say that. I'm not a big fan of 'interpreting' things that lead to a dq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 A definition of cocked might help -- I wouldn't be opposed if that got added to the glossary..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Agreed. When you have fully down, fully cocked, half cocked, and where the decocker leaves the hammer which might be the same notch as a non-decocker pistol does, we need a definition or possibly an expanded explanation in the rule book. Possible along the lines of "If a non decocker equipped pistol is holstered at anything other than hammer fully down the safety must be applied. (10.5.11.2)" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Hmm. Those are excellent points. I may have to reconsider this..... Want to muddy it further? Why even have the exception listed in 10.5.9, if lowering the hammer occurs after loading is complete, per the definition? i'm guessing that exception is to pacify overzealous rules nazis that get a woodman from dq-ing people for stuff that is not unsafe. What defines a rules NAZI? Following rules to the letter does not make an RO a NAZI. You have to be a member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party and a person who is fanatically dedicated to, or seeks to regulate, a specified activity, practice, etc.: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 DNROI has heard and answered. Great to see this type of clarification coming out in a more official format. http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=61 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 How did a ready condition rules question that in the rule book is not related to any division end up with a ruling specific to Production division that manages to avoid answering the original question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) DNROI has heard and answered. Great to see this type of clarification coming out in a more official format. http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=61 Good to see an official stance on this issue. But I'm still wondering at which point it's a bump to Open...When the shooter holsters a gun at half cock or if they start a COF at half cock. Edited September 11, 2015 by d_striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
levellinebrad Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 I like that ruling due to the fact that half cock is definitely not cocked. Even at half cock, the pull of the trigger cocks the hammer before it falls. I don't really understand why starting in that position would earn a bump to open. I would personally rather just see it as a procedural. I am glad that they clarified that it was not a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Derp continues Letting the decocker drop the hammer to half cock = OK Lowering the hammer manually to half cock = NOK Logic need not apply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 So of I go to half cock in limited open or L10 is that now fine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ES13Raven Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 So of I go to half cock in limited open or L10 is that now fine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 at least we know it's not a DQ .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Do we? Does the ruling mention safety position? Does it affect other divisions? I sent the question to DNROI the question for clarification, I am interested to see the answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 So of I go to half cock in limited open or L10 is that now fine? +1 So of I go to half cock in limited open or L10 is that now fine? Based on how I read that ruling, yes it is. It would seem that, since it does specify that this only applies to Production division then the other divisions should be exempt/not change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 With this ruling since lowering the hammer to half cock in Production = a bump to Open that therefore means holstering a gun at half cock doesn't = a DQ, because the rule would then say it's a DQ and not a bump to Open. And to me this also means you can start at half cock in Limited/L10 because any ready condition allowed in Open is also allowed in Limited/L10. I think the rule really should say if you start a course of fire after manually lowering to half cock then it's a bump to Open. If you're manually lowering the hammer and accidentally let go of the trigger too early so the hammer stops at half cock I'm not going to bump you to Open while you're re-cocking and re-lowering the hammer as you try to fix this error. If someone's shooting Production and holsters a gun at a manually lowered half cock I'd warn them that if they start the course of fire like that it's a bump to Open; I'm not going to be a jerk and just start them and after they shoot say welcome to Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 at least we know it's not a DQ .... It is at any match I officiate until I see an interpretation that instructs me differently....... (assuming that you can't apply the safety at the same time; if you can it's fine.....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 So of I go to half cock in limited open or L10 is that now fine? +1 So of I go to half cock in limited open or L10 is that now fine? Based on how I read that ruling, yes it is. It would seem that, since it does specify that this only applies to Production division then the other divisions should be exempt/not change. Where in the ruling is safety condition mentioned?, it just says in production manual half cock equals bump to open, he could be assuming the safety are being applied at half cock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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