CHA-LEE Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 If a Production shooter using a DA/SA pistol, makes ready, then manually lowers the hammer to Half Cock and does not apply the safety, then holsters the gun. Is this considered a DQable offense given rule 10.5.11.2? This rule basically says that if the hammer is cocked and the safety isn't applied before holstering, its a DQable offense. I tried looking for a definition of what a hammer being "Cocked" means in the rule book but couldn't find anything. Is a hammer resting at the half cock position considered "Cocked"? If so I would make a 10.5.11.2 DQ viable for a shooter doing something like that wouldn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 (edited) 8.5.2 If a competitor holsters a loaded handgun at any time during a course of fire, it must be placed in the applicable handgun ready conditions (see Section 8.1). Violations will be subject to match disqualification (see Rule 10.5.11). 8.5.2.1For a single action self-loader the safety must be applied. 8.5.2.2 For double action self-loaders and revolvers the hammer must be down. My take would be that the hammer is not "down" and it is also not in the ready condition for 8.1.2.2, so definitely DQ. ETA: I would not say that it is cocked, but it is definitely not fully down nor de-cocked. 8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked. Edited August 5, 2015 by High Lord Gomer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=30 Ruling on that was asked 3/6/08 and updated 6/2/14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=30 Ruling on that was asked 3/6/08 and updated 6/2/14 That only applies to de-cocking levers.8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de- cocked. If the competitor does not use a de-cocking lever, the hammer must be fully down. 8.5.2 does appear to support a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=30 Ruling on that was asked 3/6/08 and updated 6/2/14 That applies only if the pistol has the decocking lever to lower the hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 The rule makes no damned sense The half cock notch on CZ-75s is exactly the same whether the pistol has a decocker or a safety. 75D models lower the hammer to the half cock notch, ergo that's where the hammer is designed to SAFELY ride on a loaded pistol. Why on earth does anyone think that the same hammer position on a 75B is unsafe. It's bullshit published by those who don't know how that pistol works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 The rule makes no damned sense The half cock notch on CZ-75s is exactly the same whether the pistol has a decocker or a safety. 75D models lower the hammer to the half cock notch, ergo that's where the hammer is designed to SAFELY ride on a loaded pistol. Why on earth does anyone think that the same hammer position on a 75B is unsafe. It's bullshit published by those who don't know how that pistol works. Nah. It's a rule. It's not practical to have ROs know how every little sub-model of blaster on the planet works, just in case they see it at a match sometime..... Shooters have option based on the rules. Want to play the came with a 75b? Read the rules and figure out how to safely comply them..... Don't like lowering the hammer all the way on a 75b? You have choices for other divisions or other guns.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 The rule makes no damned sense The half cock notch on CZ-75s is exactly the same whether the pistol has a decocker or a safety. 75D models lower the hammer to the half cock notch, ergo that's where the hammer is designed to SAFELY ride on a loaded pistol. Why on earth does anyone think that the same hammer position on a 75B is unsafe. It's bullshit published by those who don't know how that pistol works. Nah. It's a rule. It's not practical to have ROs know how every little sub-model of blaster on the planet works, just in case they see it at a match sometime..... Shooters have option based on the rules. Want to play the came with a 75b? Read the rules and figure out how to safely comply them..... Don't like lowering the hammer all the way on a 75b? You have choices for other divisions or other guns.... Nik what happens if two different shooters come to the line, one with a 75B and the other a 75D. How is the RO to know which is which and how this rule is applied differently just because the one has a decocker and the other doesn't. Like you said how are we expected to know every sub model? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishsticks Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 The rule makes no damned sense The half cock notch on CZ-75s is exactly the same whether the pistol has a decocker or a safety. 75D models lower the hammer to the half cock notch, ergo that's where the hammer is designed to SAFELY ride on a loaded pistol. Why on earth does anyone think that the same hammer position on a 75B is unsafe. It's bullshit published by those who don't know how that pistol works. Nah. It's a rule. It's not practical to have ROs know how every little sub-model of blaster on the planet works, just in case they see it at a match sometime..... Shooters have option based on the rules. Want to play the came with a 75b? Read the rules and figure out how to safely comply them..... Don't like lowering the hammer all the way on a 75b? You have choices for other divisions or other guns.... Nik what happens if two different shooters come to the line, one with a 75B and the other a 75D. How is the RO to know which is which and how this rule is applied differently just because the one has a decocker and the other doesn't. Like you said how are we expected to know every sub model? Pretty straightforward in my experience. As an RO, I watch what the shooter does. If they use a decocker great. If not they need to let the hammer all the way down. Applies to all makes and models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=30 Ruling on that was asked 3/6/08 and updated 6/2/14 That only applies to de-cocking levers.8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de- cocked. If the competitor does not use a de-cocking lever, the hammer must be fully down. 8.5.2 does appear to support a DQ. So if I manually go to half cock on a 75D I am DQ'ed, but if I use the decocking lever to go to half cock I am OK? This does not make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 The rule makes no damned sense The half cock notch on CZ-75s is exactly the same whether the pistol has a decocker or a safety. 75D models lower the hammer to the half cock notch, ergo that's where the hammer is designed to SAFELY ride on a loaded pistol. Why on earth does anyone think that the same hammer position on a 75B is unsafe. It's bullshit published by those who don't know how that pistol works. Nah. It's a rule. It's not practical to have ROs know how every little sub-model of blaster on the planet works, just in case they see it at a match sometime..... Shooters have option based on the rules. Want to play the came with a 75b? Read the rules and figure out how to safely comply them..... Don't like lowering the hammer all the way on a 75b? You have choices for other divisions or other guns.... Nik what happens if two different shooters come to the line, one with a 75B and the other a 75D. How is the RO to know which is which and how this rule is applied differently just because the one has a decocker and the other doesn't. Like you said how are we expected to know every sub model? Simple. On the 75B, they have to use the trigger. On BD, they don't... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 The rules quoted above do seem to support that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 The rule makes no damned sense The half cock notch on CZ-75s is exactly the same whether the pistol has a decocker or a safety. 75D models lower the hammer to the half cock notch, ergo that's where the hammer is designed to SAFELY ride on a loaded pistol. Why on earth does anyone think that the same hammer position on a 75B is unsafe. It's bullshit published by those who don't know how that pistol works. Nah. It's a rule. It's not practical to have ROs know how every little sub-model of blaster on the planet works, just in case they see it at a match sometime..... Shooters have option based on the rules. Want to play the came with a 75b? Read the rules and figure out how to safely comply them..... Don't like lowering the hammer all the way on a 75b? You have choices for other divisions or other guns.... Nik what happens if two different shooters come to the line, one with a 75B and the other a 75D. How is the RO to know which is which and how this rule is applied differently just because the one has a decocker and the other doesn't. Like you said how are we expected to know every sub model? I'm thinking you can tell the difference between a decocting lever and a safety -- IIRC they look a bit different on the two guns..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=30 Ruling on that was asked 3/6/08 and updated 6/2/14 That only applies to de-cocking levers.8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de- cocked. If the competitor does not use a de-cocking lever, the hammer must be fully down. 8.5.2 does appear to support a DQ. So if I manually go to half cock on a 75D I am DQ'ed, but if I use the decocking lever to go to half cock I am OK? This does not make sense. Makes perfect sense to me. If the hammer's cocked the safety must be applied before you holster...... Can you apply the safety on a 75b with the hammer at half cock? If so, you're not DQ'd when you holster...... But you're shooting open once you fire the first shot..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beastly Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 How about the RO doesn't start the shooter until they are in the proper hammer fully down condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 I shoot a 2011 so I follow SA rules, but as an RO it can get confusing with all of the CZ varieties out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Actually Nik covered it well in another SA/DA thread. Manually going to half cock with a decocker equipped gun is a DQ because of having your finger in the trigger guard while making ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dskinsler83 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 DQ I asked about this at A6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 How about the RO doesn't start the shooter until they are in the proper hammer fully down condition. I believe that's one possible answer to the OP's question. However, if holstering a non-decocker DA/SA at half-cock at make ready is considered an unsafe gun, then the other possible answer is DQ. The question is which one is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) DQ I asked about this at A6 In that case, I've seen one shooter who should have been DQ'd on multiple occasions. ETA-I sent an email to Troy to see if he'll clarify this. Edited August 6, 2015 by d_striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dskinsler83 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Yep. I took it as the shooter wasn't ready. So I instructed them to fix the hammer to all the way down. He said it is I said its not etc etc and finally he put it all the way down. The. We proceeded, afterward while chatting with the RM he said technically I should have DQed him. I thought wow that is harsh but rules are rules no one wants to DQ someone but it is what it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Yep. I took it as the shooter wasn't ready. So I instructed them to fix the hammer to all the way down. He said it is I said its not etc etc and finally he put it all the way down. The. We proceeded, afterward while chatting with the RM he said technically I should have DQed him. I thought wow that is harsh but rules are rules no one wants to DQ someone but it is what it is Hey, rules are rules. Although, I would feel bad DQ'ing someone for this if this information is not 100% correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dskinsler83 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 The information is correct. A CZ SPO1 Shadow is not a decocker model. The rules state for any firearm with a de cocker it must be used other wise the hammer must be lowered all the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 The information is correct. A CZ SPO1 Shadow is not a decocker model. The rules state for any firearm with a de cocker it must be used other wise the hammer must be lowered all the way. I agree with what you're saying. Where I think it gets a little gray is that there is nothing in the rule book, to my knowledge, that explicitly states half cock is considered fully cocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dskinsler83 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 You are correct it states hammer all the way down completely or use a decocker so anything different is not correct or "unsafe" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now