Southpaw Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Well my first thread went more or less how I expected . But it did create some additional questions that I'm interested in hearing everyone's thoughts/opinions on: 1. Do you prefer keeping Production division as its own division or would you support some sort of merger with another division or opening up Production to single action guns? For example, would you rather have something like: a) merge Production with SS, b ) keep them separate, but allow SA in Production, c) merge Production, SS, and L10, 8 major/10 minor, d) eliminate Production and SS, and then split L10 into separate major and minor divisions (because L10 is so popular it needs to become 2 divisions ), e) some other idea (I've run out of wacky ideas). And for this question I'm not looking to delve into specific rules you'd change in Production, more talking about the overall divisions in USPSA. 2. If you support keeping Production as it is now, why? 3. I thought Chuck's post with the underlying philosophy behind IPSC Production division was interesting (post #29 here: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=219115&page=2). I know we have nothing similar ever written down by the BOD for Production. So what are your thoughts on what should be the intent/purpose of having a Production division in USPSA? And how do you think having this division benefits USPSA as a whole? If you were tasked with writing a philosophy for USPSA Production, what points would you include? 4. Do you agree with Phil's description of some of the guns currently used in Production as "Limited Minor" guns? Be it the weight, trigger, cost, amount of customization, etc., do you think this sort of characterization has some validity? ETA: 5. Do you regularly shoot Production? **I'm not starting this thread to create a big debate and to argue with anyone saying your opinion is wrong. I'm just interested in everyone's thoughts on the subject** Edited July 31, 2015 by Russell92 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Oh no, not again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I am all for leaving Production as is. It works fine even with some guns having perceived or real advantages over others. If anything it should be throttled back a little in regards to the allowable modifications. I only rarely shoot Production Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 If it ain't broke.... Don't fix it. That said, I think you could combine production, single stack and L10 into a 8 major/10 minor division and it'd be even. All the local clubs around here publish combined scores, it appears that single stack and production are pretty heads up against each other based on classification. I know everyone gets excited over the heavier production guns right now, but I can shoot a faster splits with my buddies Glock 34 than I can with my 1911. With the exception of Revo, I think the other low-cap divisions are pretty even with each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRush Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 1. I'd like Open, Limited, Production, the Rest. That's it. Everything aside from first 3 gets combined. Call it lo cap, classic, restricted, whatever. 2. Never thought I'd say this, but leave production alone. Now that CZs are available, Tanfos are (slightly) more available, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that if somebody has to have the latest greatest they can spend $800 or whatever. Why? For one, it's the fastest growing division so something is right about it, and 2, we're about to see that plastic guns can be competitive. 3. At least IPSC Prod was created to shield other manufacturers from xx11 type guns- and it succeeds at that. 4. Limited Minor? Absolutely. Does that matter? We are racing here- why should we punish manufacturers for offering guns that are desirable to competition shooters? If Glock (or whoever) wants somebody to win Nats using their pistol either make it better or put a price on it. Give a GM currently competing in Open or Limited a reason to bother with it. Win Nationals, put a $15k check on the line. Or whatever is financially viable. 5. Nope. Along with Revo and L10 it's one I haven't cared enough about to even get classified in. I've got friends who love it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIIID Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Do a search and you will find all of this has been discussed numerous times over the years. Production is working and is very popular with the membership, I wish people would quite thinking they can fix it. It is way too late (like 15 years late) to change it, Prod. is what it is live with it and enjoy. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel? Look at the stats from this week's Area 3, Production is the #1 Division. Geez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makdaddy Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I am all for leaving Production as is. It works fine even with some guns having perceived or real advantages over others. If anything it should be throttled back a little in regards to the allowable modifications. I only rarely shoot Production /\ THIS... granted , I may be a lowly C in Production and shoot a VP9 , but i think it should be throttled back if anything. Production: something not specially designed or customized and usually mass-produced. ZERO modifications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmooberry Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I shoot an M&P and I have a blast with Production. I don't really think the da/sa guns have a significant advantage over striker fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Production, Limited, SS, and Open are established Divisions. Revolver and L-10, expecially L-10 will eventially die. (IMO). Leave Production alone. In 100 years we may be shooting Lazer guns and bullets will reside under glass. I think CO will grow and become a very popular division. I don't agree with the 35OZ restriction, but at least it is a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fergus556 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Im in favor of leaving production alone. There is no real advantage between one gun to another imo. Level playing field, low cost compaired to other divisions, and you can compete with something you can actually carry. And yes I shoot production Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuelie777 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I highly recommend to leave production alone as is. I shoot production and single stack primarily and believe they are great as is, easy to understand and not expensive to get started. With the experiment on CO then we will really see if making changes with another classification is warranted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 2 -- yes, because it's working -- just look at its popularity. Let's not fix what's not broken.... 4 -- Phil's wrong if he thinks some of the guns are essentially Limited minor. They still don't have magwells, SA guns are not allowed, mods are restricted and they load to ten round capacity. How that compares to Limited and it's no dots, comps, or optics -- otherwise anything goes, I can't see.... 5 -- I've shot production almost exclusively since 2002, including 4 Nats, and a bunch of other majors. I don't foresee that changing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmooberry Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I guess I am a little behind the times. Who is calling for this big shakeup of Prod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 It's the same guy who asks the forum a bunch of "leading" questions about changing something, then insists that they justify their answers. That's backward - the one who wants change needs to justify it, not try to get everyone else to "justify" leaving it alone. Wish he'd just state his own opinion and be done with it. I'm also for no change to Production, and yes, I shoot Production (among others - they're all fun). I'm all for "learn the rules, decide what Division to shoot, and go have fun". Much time is wasted here flapping our jaws about things that aren't going to change that would best be spent in practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dillon Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I alternate between Production, revolver and SS. I bought a CZ Shadow before they were "cool", as I felt it was the best platform available when I purchased it a long time ago. I had hoped the Carry Optics would allow me to add a dot to my slide, as my eyes steadily get worse. I see no need for any changes to Production division. A variety of out of the box firearms are competitive. 10 round limit allows members in restrictive states to compete. Other gear such as holsters and mag pouches are widely available at affordable prices. Production division serves both as an entry division to USPSA, yet stands alone equally well. Leave it alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecmc Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Every division has a particular type of gun that people feel work the best , no way around that. Production - CZ/Tangfo Single Stack - STI based 1911s ( and a small handful of other brands ) Limited /L10 - STI based 2011s Open - STI based 2011s, with Comps / Dots Revolver - S&W 627/929 8 Shot revolvers There isn't a whole lot of diversity in the guns people will gravitate to that they feel work the best, While production is probably the one division that has the most different type of brand / gun , people still feel that they heavier guns will work better. Why are we not arguing about why Open division guys are not using plastic guns with deltapoints, or Limited division guys dont use .40 caliber berettas or glocks, and why nobody wants to use 6 shot Ruger GP100s in Revolver division? Solution? Challenge the manufactures to build a gun people actually want to shoot and feel they feel competitive in. It's called innovation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) I've beat a lot of people using a M&P Pro in production, I'm sure I'll be beating the same people when I start shooting the CZ75 CTS. So why switch platforms? because Murica! Edited July 31, 2015 by DocMedic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I've beat a lot of people using a M&P Pro in production, I'm sure I'll be beating the same people when I start shooting the CZ75 CTS. So why switch platforms? because Murica! Pretty sure that CTS is not a "Murica" gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Will you settle for "assembled in Murica"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Will you settle for "assembled in Murica"? Nope, it's not. Maybe tuned in the United States. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitrohuck Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) My first match ever I showed up with an XDM, three mags, pouches, and ammo... I remember being told this was "all you needed to start in Production!" ... which is a crock of sh*t, I was bumped to Limited minor, because three mags isn't gonna do anything for me in Prod, you need at least 5-6. I was a bit bummed about that, since somehow throughout all my research leading up to my first match I had missed the fact that production only allows ten rounds per mag... That is my main question: Why ten rounds? Just because of state limits? Why not have the rules simply say "Mags can be full or filled to the allowed state limit"? Long story short, I stayed in limited, got a 2011, and never looked back... Edited July 31, 2015 by nitrohuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Make Prodution - PRODUCTION, no mods of any type, just an off the shelf factory gun. Oh, maybe a Plastic and a metal group:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Make Prodution - PRODUCTION, no mods of any type, just an off the shelf factory gun. Oh, maybe a Plastic and a metal group:) Why? Who likes shooting guns that suck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIIID Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 IPSC tried what the mags could hold and it became the gun which held the most rounds was the one to use. It was up to the manufactures to make a factory mag that could match or beat the other guys capacity. For the US it was partly do to the time Prod. was created(Crime Bill era) all manufactures could only ship 10 round mags with their guns. With the 10 round limit any caliber would be viable from 9mm to .45acp. If it was left to the standard capacity of factory mags it would be the XDM 9mm 19+1 would be one of the highest capacity. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now