Rules question

[WJM]

I was at a match this last weekend, shooting in a squad with some experienced shooters.

One of the shooters got up to the line, was told the load and make ready command, re-holstered his gun, then proceeded to grab his phone from his pants pocket to have another person record him. The RO said that because he reached in his pants he essentially swept himself, and that would be the only warning he would get.

I guess I am confused, once the gun goes in the holster it is almost out of the realm of this possibility right? Otherwise a lot of us would be DQ'd just for running in a way that the gun may cross our legs, or in a way that our hands swung underneath the gun.

Thanks for helping me if you can!

WJM

[Nghthwk1911]

Sometimes I think some RO's really have no clue.

I would point them to and specific exceptions in 10.5.5.1

[PKT1106]

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns. Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7

This exception states specifically the "lower extremities", but I take this to mean anything below the belt, including pockets.

It would be a good idea to keep the phone in a different pocket or the bag because, at least for me, its a pain in the butt to pull anything out of my holster-side pocket because the holster is right there.

Edited April 13, 2015 by PKT1106

[motosapiens]

I guess I am confused, once the gun goes in the holster it is almost out of the realm of this possibility right?

you are not confused. The 'RO' in question was very confused. You can't sweep yourself with a holstered gun (or at least it's not a dq if you do so).

[motosapiens]

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns. Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7

This exception states specifically the "lower extremities", but I take this to mean anything below the belt, including pockets.

the 'lower extremities part refers to sweeping *during* the act of drawing or holstering. It's still a dq if you sweep your support hand while drawing or holstering. However, once the gun is holstered, sweeping does not apply.

[Bkreutz]

I was at a match this last weekend, shooting in a squad with some experienced shooters.

One of the shooters got up to the line, was told the load and make ready command, re-holstered his gun, then proceeded to grab his phone from his pants pocket to have another person record him. The RO said that because he reached in his pants he essentially swept himself, and that would be the only warning he would get.

I guess I am confused, once the gun goes in the holster it is almost out of the realm of this possibility right? Otherwise a lot of us would be DQ'd just for running in a way that the gun may cross our legs, or in a way that our hands swung underneath the gun.

Thanks for helping me if you can!

WJM

If, when reaching in his pocket, his "reaching" hand was forward and in front of the muzzle, IMO it would be a DQ. The hand is not a lower extremity. If I was running that shooter, as soon as he put his hand in his pocket on the same side as his holster, I would have stopped him, "Unload and show clear", and then told him to finish his "pocket business" and then go back to make ready. Fishing in your pocket (for whatever reason) is not an appropriate action after the "make ready". This doesn't mean that taking a mag out of another pocket other than the one under the holster to load a Barney round falls into the same category.

[motosapiens]

If, when reaching in his pocket, his "reaching" hand was forward and in front of the muzzle, IMO it would be a DQ. The hand is not a lower extremity. If I was running that shooter, as soon as he put his hand in his pocket on the same side as his holster, I would have stopped him, "Unload and show clear", and then told him to finish his "pocket business" and then go back to make ready.

Are you sure about that? Did you read the rulebook (10.5.5.1) where it *specifically* states that sweeping doesn't apply to a properly holstered gun?

[gng4life]

I was at a match this last weekend, shooting in a squad with some experienced shooters.

One of the shooters got up to the line, was told the load and make ready command, re-holstered his gun, then proceeded to grab his phone from his pants pocket to have another person record him. The RO said that because he reached in his pants he essentially swept himself, and that would be the only warning he would get.

I guess I am confused, once the gun goes in the holster it is almost out of the realm of this possibility right? Otherwise a lot of us would be DQ'd just for running in a way that the gun may cross our legs, or in a way that our hands swung underneath the gun.

Thanks for helping me if you can!

WJM

If, when reaching in his pocket, his "reaching" hand was forward and in front of the muzzle, IMO it would be a DQ. The hand is not a lower extremity. If I was running that shooter, as soon as he put his hand in his pocket on the same side as his holster, I would have stopped him, "Unload and show clear", and then told him to finish his "pocket business" and then go back to make ready. Fishing in your pocket (for whatever reason) is not an appropriate action after the "make ready". This doesn't mean that taking a mag out of another pocket other than the one under the holster to load a Barney round falls into the same category.

Really? Please read 10.5.5.1 again...specifically "10.5.5.1 Exception...(some text removed for brevity) ...Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7."

[George Jones]

A properly holstered handgun in a legal holster (no functional access to the trigger) can be considered "inert". Therefore, placing a hand in front of that holstered muzzle is not sweeping in any sense of the rule.

Having aid that, I would not purposely place my own hand in front of that muzzle. I further suggest that new shooters be taught not to do it.

Real DQs are in the rulebook. Real DQs do not get warnings, they result in a short day.

[Sarge]

I think we are getting to the point of needing to up the standards for RO's. There are way to many incidents like this happening.

[davsco]

imagine the horror when folks go prone at 3 gun matches!

[blueeyedme]

In my opinion, a DQ for that would be arbitrated in a heartbeat. However I don't think it would get that far as the RM would apply the rules and reinstate once notified.

Edited April 13, 2015 by blueeyedme

[Bkreutz]

I was at a match this last weekend, shooting in a squad with some experienced shooters.

One of the shooters got up to the line, was told the load and make ready command, re-holstered his gun, then proceeded to grab his phone from his pants pocket to have another person record him. The RO said that because he reached in his pants he essentially swept himself, and that would be the only warning he would get.

I guess I am confused, once the gun goes in the holster it is almost out of the realm of this possibility right? Otherwise a lot of us would be DQ'd just for running in a way that the gun may cross our legs, or in a way that our hands swung underneath the gun.

Thanks for helping me if you can!

WJM

If, when reaching in his pocket, his "reaching" hand was forward and in front of the muzzle, IMO it would be a DQ. The hand is not a lower extremity. If I was running that shooter, as soon as he put his hand in his pocket on the same side as his holster, I would have stopped him, "Unload and show clear", and then told him to finish his "pocket business" and then go back to make ready. Fishing in your pocket (for whatever reason) is not an appropriate action after the "make ready". This doesn't mean that taking a mag out of another pocket other than the one under the holster to load a Barney round falls into the same category.

Really? Please read 10.5.5.1 again...specifically "10.5.5.1 Exception...(some text removed for brevity) ...Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7."

Really. Since when is the hand a lower extremity? The text you left out for brevity reads "10.5.5.1 Exception - A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt)...... " Anyway, that's the way I look at it. The rest of that rule is somewhat contradictory, In the first part it says that the exception is applicable while drawing or reholstering the handgun, then says "This exception is only for holstered handguns." ???? Which one is it? Both? I still wouldn't want a shooter to be digging around in his/her pockets after the "make ready" command.

[ktm300]

I was at a match this last weekend, shooting in a squad with some experienced shooters.

One of the shooters got up to the line, was told the load and make ready command, re-holstered his gun, then proceeded to grab his phone from his pants pocket to have another person record him. The RO said that because he reached in his pants he essentially swept himself, and that would be the only warning he would get.

I guess I am confused, once the gun goes in the holster it is almost out of the realm of this possibility right? Otherwise a lot of us would be DQ'd just for running in a way that the gun may cross our legs, or in a way that our hands swung underneath the gun.

Thanks for helping me if you can!

WJM

If, when reaching in his pocket, his "reaching" hand was forward and in front of the muzzle, IMO it would be a DQ. The hand is not a lower extremity. If I was running that shooter, as soon as he put his hand in his pocket on the same side as his holster, I would have stopped him, "Unload and show clear", and then told him to finish his "pocket business" and then go back to make ready. Fishing in your pocket (for whatever reason) is not an appropriate action after the "make ready". This doesn't mean that taking a mag out of another pocket other than the one under the holster to load a Barney round falls into the same category.

Really? Please read 10.5.5.1 again...specifically "10.5.5.1 Exception...(some text removed for brevity) ...Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7."

Really. Since when is the hand a lower extremity? The text you left out for brevity reads "10.5.5.1 Exception - A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt)...... " Anyway, that's the way I look at it. The rest of that rule is somewhat contradictory, In the first part it says that the exception is applicable while drawing or reholstering the handgun, then says "This exception is only for holstered handguns." ???? Which one is it? Both? I still wouldn't want a shooter to be digging around in his/her pockets after the "make ready" command.

It is not at all ambiguous.

Lets break it down.

Part 1: A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while draw-ing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competi-tor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. (Period)

Part 1-1: This exception is only for holstered handguns. (Period)

Part 2: Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7

Part 2 is very specific and you are going to stop someone. Please read the rule with the punctuation not as a run on sentence.

Here is the whole rule as it is in the book.

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns. Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7

It is not what you feel, it is what is written.

[GrumpyOne]

Please read post #9 of this thread.

[Gary Stevens]

A properly holstered handgun in a legal holster (no functional access to the trigger) can be considered "inert". Therefore, placing a hand in front of that holstered muzzle is not sweeping in any sense of the rule.

Having aid that, I would not purposely place my own hand in front of that muzzle. I further suggest that new shooters be taught not to do it.

Real DQs are in the rulebook. Real DQs do not get warnings, they result in a short day.

What George said. Safely holstered guns are inert.

I also agree with Sarge. Rules are available in one form or another and I think they still furnish rule books in RO class. The problem is they are not used as reference material and that leads to problems.

[motosapiens]

I can see where someone could misunderstand the rule the way it is written, the way bkreutz has misunderstood it. The sentence 'this exception is only for holstered handguns' is oddly placed and somewhat unnecessary. If it applies to the sweeping of lower extremities, then it should really say 'this exception only applies while holstering and drawing a handgun' (i.e. it doesn't apply if you sweep your lower extremities any other time, like when opening a door or pulling out of a port or whatever.)

Edited April 13, 2015 by motosapiens

[Bkreutz]

I'm beginning to be convinced . I have to agree that it's not a DQ from the feedback on this thread. I think I'd still do a "Unload and show clear" if someone started doing something other than "Making ready" after that command. No DQ, just a reset so the shooter could take care of whatever personal business needed without a loaded gun in the holster. I can accept practice draw, turning on the dot (something I've forgotten from time to time), taking a sight picture, and of course loading the pistol. I'm of the opinion that once a shooter is under the RO's direction, it should be "all business" until the "Range is clear". Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Steve Koski]

Whew! I was scared there for a minute. I've also put my finger tips below the muzzle during a "hands at sides" start. Thank goodness holstered handguns aren't subject to sweeping rules.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Steve Koski

[MaraW]

I think we are getting to the point of needing to up the standards for RO's. There are way to many incidents like this happening.

Do you know if this was even a certified RO? Most of the time I see or hear an "RO" making one of those calls that can't be backed up by the rule book (except the one in their head), they are not a certified RO, just someone running the timer at a local match.

[Steve Koski]

I don't know if they were certified. The assistant RO brought it up, and the chief RO backed him up saying that it was a warning, not a DQ this time. They worked really hard for several days in the sun. I hold no ill will towards them. A very minor problem for sure.

[9x45]

I was at a match this last weekend, shooting in a squad with some experienced shooters.

One of the shooters got up to the line, was told the load and make ready command, re-holstered his gun, then proceeded to grab his phone from his pants pocket to have another person record him. The RO said that because he reached in his pants he essentially swept himself, and that would be the only warning he would get.

I guess I am confused, once the gun goes in the holster it is almost out of the realm of this possibility right? Otherwise a lot of us would be DQ'd just for running in a way that the gun may cross our legs, or in a way that our hands swung underneath the gun.

Thanks for helping me if you can!

WJM

How do you know the guy holding the clock is a certified RO? If he said to "Load and Make Ready" he is not. The command is "Make Ready" Also a holstered loaded gun is inert, as someone allready said. And what about hands at sides? I regulary have my arm against the holster with my fingers touching leg right below the muzzle. My Glock forgets where to look sometimes, but it would never shoot me. And there is no such thing as a "Warning Shot" it's just a flat out DQ. Shooters video each other all the time. I think 2 things about this, the RO didn't much care for that shooter, you know, "I know the guy, but don't like him that much, so Alpha, Mike, No Shoot" versus "That's my buddy, 2 Alpha. Oh that No Shoot was already there" And the shooter should have maked ready the camera before going to the line.. What if the camera had an AD? and the guy has a man on fire run?

Edited April 13, 2015 by 9x45

[pmt]

The Rule Book needs one more new rule

Rule # 1.1.1.1.1

Don't make shit up.

[Sarge]

Hmmm if they worked several days in the sun it sounds like maybe A6? There should have been only certified RO'S on the stages if that's the case.

As for incorrect range commands, all you have to do is watch enough videos to see all kinds of hokey stuff.

I stand by my opinion that the RO corps needs some tougher standards

[frag316]

I'm beginning to be convinced . I have to agree that it's not a DQ from the feedback on this thread. I think I'd still do a "Unload and show clear" if someone started doing something other than "Making ready" after that command. No DQ, just a reset so the shooter could take care of whatever personal business needed without a loaded gun in the holster. I can accept practice draw, turning on the dot (something I've forgotten from time to time), taking a sight picture, and of course loading the pistol. I'm of the opinion that once a shooter is under the RO's direction, it should be "all business" until the "Range is clear". Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I don't know how you could be anything but completely convinced. The competitor can basically do anything he or she wants after holstering a loaded gun, in compliance with the RO's "make ready" command, aside from moving from the start position and a few other things explicitly covered in the rules. You have very little control over a competitor's actions until they either do not respond or respond positively to your "Are you ready" command. Until the competitor is set and either does not respond to or responds positively to "Are you ready," they are NOT ready and can continue to adjust, within reason. If they take an exorbitant amount of time, then you can clear them and move them down in the shooting order, but you're going just a little too far.

Now, having said all of that, the competitor needs to pull his head out of his fourth point of contact and take care of all of that recording business BEFORE he gets to the line. Why waste everyone else's time digging around for a phone after being given "Make ready?"