Trick to finding the dot on the draw

[ToddKS]

I recently mounted a Delta Point to my 5.25 XDm on the slide. I was hoping for Production Optics but now I am Open Minor. Oh well, I primarily shoot Steel Challenge anyway.

I am looking for any advice on how to manage my draw in such a way that the dot is on target every time. I am working this in dry fire nightly but do not seem to be getting much better. I feel like I may be missing something technically.

Is drawing with a dot different motion wise than drawing with iron sights?

Any feedback would be appreciated. I am ready to spend the next few months working on this over the winter but I want to make sure I am doing it right.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Keep up the practice - took me quite a few months to "find the dot".

Two tips:

1. raise the muzzle slightly and bring it down onto the target - that

usually helps find the dot

2. index a part of the sight - on my C-More, there's a knob which is

useful as an index for me (don't use it much anymore).

Can still be a problem, though, when shooting weak hand only and

in some unusual positions.

Good luck.

p.s. there was a full discussion on this topic just a month or so ago.

[Sarge]

Dry fire and search button:)

[scottlep]

Dry fire and a lot of draw practice. There is no magic recipe besides repetition. One possible trick with a dot is drawing in an upside down "L" type shape so that way you are getting the dot out in front of your eyes as you are pushing it to the target. That sometimes allows you to find the dot and break a shot before your arms are fully out and locked. Search the forum and there is tons of other good advice for techniques to use when doing your draw practice.

[RocketCity1911]

Start by finding your Natural Point of Aim (NPA). I do that by lining myself and the gun in the holster up to a staight vertical surface like a door jam or the corner of a wall or a target stand, then draw the gun with your eyes closed. Open your eyes and figure out where the dot is pointed. Adjust your feet until you can consistently draw the gun and when you open your eyes the dot is somewhere on the vertical plane. Once you have that, then work on getting the dot to appear at a specific spot in the vertical plane everytime you open your eyes. You want the draw to be instinctual and relaxed. Too much tension is the enemy of a fast, reliable draw. By closing/opening your eyes, you will develop your hand-eye coordination much better as well as your confidence at using an optic. When I shoot steel, I always align my NPA to the plate I'm drawing on knowing that I can I hit that plate with my eyes closed

[R.Elliott]

Another approach:

Start with gun mounted on target (dry fire) and dot aligned between your chosen impact point and your master eye. Now without taking your eyes off the aiming point, slowly drag the gun straight back down to the holster and holster it. Let your weak hand peel off the gun when it feels like it needs to. Your strong hand is now gripping the gun in the holster and your weak hand is now at the receiving position on your upper belly. Now do the same thing in reverse, again slowly, focusing on taking the gun straight from the holster to the full mount position. At first you may have to make small micro-adjustments as you move the gun along its path but after a few dozen reps you'll start to carve the line in pretty well.

You can also cut out a piece of black card and tape it to the muzzle side of the C-More lens. This will of course occlude the view through the lens, giving you the equivalent of a reflex sight, which will force yourself to keep your focus on the target rather than the dot. Looking past the sight with it interposed in your eye line, you will be aware of the dot settling in on the target without having to focus on it. This is a very good trick and it works pretty quickly.

Good luck.

R

Edited November 21, 2014 by R.Elliott

[BoyGlock]

Focus on the target and stop looking for the dot.

[Dranoel]

One of my dry fire drills:

Put a target paster on the wall, focus on it and draw, bringing the gun and sights into my line of sight. Then do the same thing again, but once you have focus in the target, close your eyes and draw. Open your eyes and see where your aim is relative to the target. If you are not lined up on target adjust your grip and try it again.

You want to find the grip position that naturally brings the sights (or optic) to proper aim point naturally and remember it. Then practice finding that exact grip on the gun every time. This not only helps on the draw but it help you keep your sights aligned when you move from target to target.

[Shadyscott999]

Three things will solve your problem.

1. Repetition

2. Repetition

3. Repetition

There is no magic solution, trick or shortcut.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Shadyscott999

[wide45]

You have never refined your grip, and learned to make it consistent.

You will continue to have trouble until you do.

Edited November 21, 2014 by wide45

[ToddKS]

In response to the "search" responses I did try to search. I even went so far as to manually go back through the topics in the Open Gun forum. The issue was that I am apparently just lacking enough to not notice how the search function changes focus depending on where you are in the forum. If you move to a sub forum the search default narrows to that forum (unless you change its setting back to "Forums"). If you are in a thread the search default narrows to that topic. Pretty straightforward....unless you don't realize it is happening, then your search is screwed up.

The thread from earlier this month was in the USPSA/IPSC sub forum so I did not find it because I was in the Open Gun sub forum while I was searching. I try not to be "that guy" but oh well. There seems to be some different feedback here so I am going to go with it.

[ToddKS]

You have never refined your grip, and learned to make it consistent.

You will continue to have trouble until you do.

I do not disagree. I am assuming that by "refine my grip" you mean to do it the same every time. What I am looking for is the path to accomplishing that objective.

Putting in the reps is not a problem for me. I am willing to do that. I am concerned that I am doing it wrong and not realizing it. If that is the case then all the reps in the world aren't going to solve the issue.

[ToddKS]

It sounds like the one thing I am doing right for sure is focusing on the target, so that is good.

Several have mentioned NPA which I am familiar with from rifle shooting but had not thought about with regard to my pistol shooting. I believe this could be a large part of what I am missing. I have been working to ensure that my hands were in the same position at the start each time, but I had not given much thought to the position of the rest of my body. I am going to make sure that I pay attention to my overall body position going forward.

For those that offered specific drills you have my thanks. That is really what I was looking for. I will try them all and see how that works out for me.

I am a long way from fixed so anyone who has addtional drills, thoughts, or suggestions please pile on.

[seanc]

Focus on the target and stop looking for the dot.

This sounds like non-specific nonsense but it really is what worked for me.

When I stopped looking for the dot and just looked where I wanted the bullet to go on the target the dot started showing up.

I

[gerritm]

A very good experienced shooter that I met at a match when I had some problems finding my dot showed me his pistol. He had drawn with the help of tape in marker a narrow black line dead center of the back of the slide. He picks that up first in his draw as he raises the pistol to his dominant eye and it seems to naturally line him up. I tried it with some dry fire and it helped me. I also turned my dot up very bright when I first started in open to see the glare and pick it up. Now I have backed it down based on light conditions.

gerritm

[Brooke]

Focus on the target and stop looking for the dot.

This sounds like non-specific nonsense but it really is what worked for me.

When I stopped looking for the dot and just looked where I wanted the bullet to go on the target the dot started showing up.

I

Works for me too. My wife sometimes can not find the dot because the gun is too low versus her eye line to the target. Finally she just raises it until the dot appears. I get frustrated with her because I can't relate to the problem. I just point the gun at the target and the dot is there. One of the few things that I actually seem to do pretty well. Knock on wood!

[Nimitz]

If you have Brian's book he has a really good section about how to do this (with irons) but the fundamentals he's trying to teach are the same. He gives 5 drills to learn to do which will result in you being able to draw to a spot on a target with you eyes closed with a resulting perfect sight picture ... Great stuff and worth the effort to master ....

[RocketCity1911]

If you have Brian's book he has a really good section about how to do this (with irons) but the fundamentals he's trying to teach are the same. He gives 5 drills to learn to do which will result in you being able to draw to a spot on a target with you eyes closed with a resulting perfect sight picture ... Great stuff and worth the effort to master ....

+1

I read that book every winter. Just started my 5th time to read it cover-to-cover. Pages are starting to fall out, but I always find something that clicks with where I'm at in my shooting at the time.

[BritinUSA]

It's possible that you might be shifting your head a little, if you're used to shooting iron sights then you may have been dipping your head to pick up the iron sights. Try keeping your head upright and chin forward, focused on the target and then draw the gun and see where the dot is.

[IHMSA15151]

Focus on the target and stop looking for the dot.

This sounds like non-specific nonsense but it really is what worked for me.

When I stopped looking for the dot and just looked where I wanted the bullet to go on the target the dot started showing up.

I

As a newbie to this game I found this to be very true.

[ToddKS]

Focus on the target and stop looking for the dot.

This sounds like non-specific nonsense but it really is what worked for me.

When I stopped looking for the dot and just looked where I wanted the bullet to go on the target the dot started showing up.

I

From everyone's feedback this is the one thing that I was doing right. The habit of looking at the target not the dot was already heavily ingrained from shooting rifles with red dot optics. The issue was that unlike with my rifles, the dot was not showing up where and when it was supposed to

[ToddKS]

Start by finding your Natural Point of Aim (NPA). I do that by lining myself and the gun in the holster up to a staight vertical surface like a door jam or the corner of a wall or a target stand, then draw the gun with your eyes closed. Open your eyes and figure out where the dot is pointed. Adjust your feet until you can consistently draw the gun and when you open your eyes the dot is somewhere on the vertical plane. Once you have that, then work on getting the dot to appear at a specific spot in the vertical plane everytime you open your eyes. You want the draw to be instinctual and relaxed. Too much tension is the enemy of a fast, reliable draw. By closing/opening your eyes, you will develop your hand-eye coordination much better as well as your confidence at using an optic. When I shoot steel, I always align my NPA to the plate I'm drawing on knowing that I can I hit that plate with my eyes closed

This was a very helpful approach. By narrowing the focus to a single plane at at time (vertical or horizontal) it allowed me to better isolate what I was doing wrong.

In the horizontal plane the issue seems to be keeping my hip and shoulder positions consistent. If I am off this way more often then not I see the dot, it is just not on target. One of the things I am figuring out is that because of the shape of the window on my Delta Point it is more forgiving of side to side errors than up and down (the window is nearly twice as wide as it is tall). I may not be on target, but I have the dot in view.

The vertical plane issues seem to be as much related to inconsistent head position as anything else. I am finding that often if I hold my hands where I drew to and just move my head I am finding that the dot is actually on target but I was not seeing it because I moved my head out of position. When it is not my head, it is usually a hand related issue. I have a tendency to present the gun with the bore angle to high relative to the target. As I mentioned above, my sight is not overly forgiving of this error.

I am now referring to the eyes closed practice as my Jedi shooting trick.

[ToddKS]

Another approach:

Start with gun mounted on target (dry fire) and dot aligned between your chosen impact point and your master eye. Now without taking your eyes off the aiming point, slowly drag the gun straight back down to the holster and holster it. Let your weak hand peel off the gun when it feels like it needs to. Your strong hand is now gripping the gun in the holster and your weak hand is now at the receiving position on your upper belly. Now do the same thing in reverse, again slowly, focusing on taking the gun straight from the holster to the full mount position. At first you may have to make small micro-adjustments as you move the gun along its path but after a few dozen reps you'll start to carve the line in pretty well.

You can also cut out a piece of black card and tape it to the muzzle side of the C-More lens. This will of course occlude the view through the lens, giving you the equivalent of a reflex sight, which will force yourself to keep your focus on the target rather than the dot. Looking past the sight with it interposed in your eye line, you will be aware of the dot settling in on the target without having to focus on it. This is a very good trick and it works pretty quickly.

Good luck.

R

This is also a great drill that I am now using. Excellent practice to help deal with my tendency to prestent the gun to the target with the bore pointed too high thus losing the dot. By starting hand on gun it can get more reps in in less time. I did this one quite a bit last night until shoulder fatigue finally convinced me to quit. I could definitely get in the groove but could not necessarily retain the groove at the begining of the next set. It did seem though that at the end it was taking me fewer reps to get dialed in that at the beginning of the session. I combined this drill with the eyes closed Jedi shooting trick as well.

[ToddKS]

Keep up the practice - took me quite a few months to "find the dot".

Two tips:

1. raise the muzzle slightly and bring it down onto the target - that

usually helps find the dot

2. index a part of the sight - on my C-More, there's a knob which is

useful as an index for me (don't use it much anymore).

Can still be a problem, though, when shooting weak hand only and

in some unusual positions.

Good luck.

p.s. there was a full discussion on this topic just a month or so ago.

Jack,

Thanks for the reply. I am replying to this for the benefit of anyone who reads this for reference as I think it highlights some differences between a CMore mounted on a mount mid gun and a DeltaPoint or similar sight mounted on the slide.

Raising the bore much at all almost guarantees me losing the dot. I believe this is a combination of the design of the sight (window is not as tall as the CMore) and its mounting location at the rear of the slide. I tried coming at the target as you suggested but found with my sight/mounting combination I was much better off having the muzzle a little low and bringing it up at the end rather than vice versa. For whatever reason if my bore angle is low I tend to still have the dot, just not on target. If my bore angle is high I tend to not have the dot. I truly believe this is a function of the design and mounting location of my sight.

As for indexing on the sight, there just isn't much to index on with the DeltaPoint. It really does not give you much in the way of visual feedback that is helpful in lining up the sight. I can definitely see where the CMore being longer and having some protrusions would give much better feedback in this regard.

Thanks again for the input.

[ToddKS]

Three things will solve your problem.

1. Repetition

2. Repetition

3. Repetition

There is no magic solution, trick or shortcut.

Scott,

Thank you for your input as well. As with my previous response to Jack, the purpose of my reply to for reference to others who may read this looking for help with their problems.

I agree with you 100% that repetition is the answer. My issue was that I was doing the repetition (lots of it) and not getting any results. This lead me to suspect that I was doing something wrong mechanically which is why I posted my question here.

What I was looking for (and received, thank you all for your posts) was suggestions on mechanical things I might be doing wrong and drills/ideas on what I could do to correct those defects. The suggestions above really helped me pin down some of the mechanical reasons I was not getting the dot on target. Now that I understand that better I am doing the drills to learn to do it right consistently.

Without the feedback I received here I would likely still be doing my reps and not getting much out of them. Sooner or later I might have figured it out but who knows. Now I much better understand what I am doing wrong mechanically and have a path forward to address those defects.