Possible Elimination of ESR

[GOF]

I can't see where that is logically in the mix. Although, IDPA & Logic don't necessarily belong in the same sentence.

You can already shoot a 625, 610, .44 Mag, .41 Mag... or any other six-shot DA revolver chambered for 38 Spl and above, that can be loaded with a speedloader, speed strips, or loose rounds in SSR (as long as it has a barrel no longer than 4.2-inches) and makes a PF of at least 105.

There is no "new" there. Any changes that wrap ESR into SSR are going to have to account for moonclips and Power Factor. At least, commonsense would dictate that.

Hmmmm... IDPA HQ is involved? OK, belay my last in reference to commonsense. We'll just have to wait for the latest laugher from on high.

Edited November 4, 2014 by GOF

[rowdyb]

I too read the email as esr is eliminated. I think people are going to have to accept that.

I was given one of the accushadows to shoot at that match. Instead I shot a different czc gun that probably was illegal as well. But finishing 16th master no one really pays attention to you.

Edited November 5, 2014 by rowdyb

[afoulk]

I still haven't figured out what it costs anyone to keep them both open. It bothers me that such a radical change happened without actually trying anything else first.

I don't think HQ understands the current situation clearly. The population of revolver shooters consists of a few hard core year round wheelgunners and a higher number of occasional revolver shooters who shoot primarily in other divisions. I think we really need to admit we're never going to have adequate participation at all events. We need to plan better to find competition.

I think we can pick a few higher Tier matches to promote as regional SSR championships or ESR championships. This needs to be announced early, so people can plan accordingly.

The highest participation in wheelgun competition in my area and perhaps the entire east coast happened at a falling steel match called the PSA Shootout. The feature that seemed to get the part timers to shoot wheelguns was the ability to re-enter in multiple divisions.

We could try to run revolver specialty matches concurrently with sanctioned matches in a way that effectively allows a re-entry into a match with a second gun in a different session. Place the restriction that if you are shooting both matches, you must shoot the main match first.

Will it help? Maybe. Is it worth the effort? I don't know, but it seems like it's worth a try.

[enemeth]

I started shooting IDPA and ESR in 2006 so this was one year after the 2005 rule changes that created ESR and eliminated the 5" barrels. There were still people upset and talking about rule equipment changes when I started shooting. Since I was new it didn't affect me, I bought a 4" barreled 625 and started shooting revolver.

ESR competitor equipment is so similar there is no real equipment race to deal with. Lack of competitors in the division has always been frustrating but if you roll ESR into SSR the rules will not be able to artificially put them on an equal level. The will be an equipment winner and looser. This has happened in USPSA revolver with 8 shot minor power factor taking over 6 shot major as soon as 8 shots were allowed.

The decision to drop the division seems to have been made. I wish there could have been some discussion before the fact but this is typical of an orginazation that isn't obligated to be guided by the members. When they are having so much trouble with rule revisions it makes me wonder why they added the new task of resolving the speed loader vs moon clip problem. I hope there is still a place for the " 3%" but they are right when they say that "this will make a few people unhappy".

Edited November 6, 2014 by enemeth

[cmason]

I think the ESR would be a better fit if they combined it with CDP.

Power factor is the same and capacity is close to being the same.

[GOF]

There's a significant difference between running a 8 shot bottom feeder (that can start with 9 rounds) and a 6 shot revo. It would take a JM-class shooter to make that revo competitive in CDP.

[jcc7x7]

Yea get rid is esr or lump it with the wadcutter guns and give us guys that spent the money and choose to shoot it another reason to go somewhere else and shoot.

I like 1911 and glocks with optics but if that's all y'all want shooting call it Wilson gss shooting

Yes I'm pissed

Edited November 6, 2014 by jcc7x7

[S-Hurt]

The decision to drop the division seems to have been made. I wish there could have been some discussion before the fact but this is typical of an orginazation that isn't obligated to be guided by the members. When they are having so much trouble with rule revisions it makes me wonder why they added the new task of resolving the speed loader vs moon clip problem. I hope there is still a place for the " 3%" but they are right when they say that "this will make a few people unhappy".

Yea get rid is esr or lump it with the wadcutter guns and give us guys that spent the money and choose to shoot it another reason to go somewhere else and shoot.

I like 1911 and glocks with optics but if that's all y'all want shooting call it Wilson gss shooting

Yes I'm pissed

enemth .... I hope the final decision has not been made and they reconsider much like the standing or stopped reload. That was also a bad idea but it appears they are changing it.

For an organization that boost about the equal playing field, the are dropping the ball on this one.

jcc7x7 .... you should be pissed. Again, my point is why not add divisions instead of getting rid of one. IDPA should be trying to add shooters instead of pissing people off and losing membership.

[rowdyb]

idpa has what 20,000 members? if only 3% of them are classified in esr that's what, 600 people? 600 maximum people mad about the loss of esr.

How many people left or were mad due to the flat footed reload? The 18% or so of members who submitted it as an item to be changed, or 6 times as many people.

Majority rules. 3,600 people pissed enough to complain. 600 esr shooters bummed will be replaced by more than 600 people happy to shoot an optic or only against smaller compact guns.

[BillR1]

idpa has what 20,000 members? if only 3% of them are classified in esr that's what, 600 people? 600 maximum people mad about the loss of esr.

How many people left or were mad due to the flat footed reload? The 18% or so of members who submitted it as an item to be changed, or 6 times as many people.

Majority rules. 3,600 people pissed enough to complain. 600 esr shooters bummed will be replaced by more than 600 people happy to shoot an optic or only against smaller compact guns.

This!

I doubt very many of those 600 people have ESR as their only classification. I'm classified in ESR, but I'm not going to miss it too much. SSR is way fun, and I got some new CZs to play with in SSP now.

[lee blackman]

I think the addition of the optic/laser division has been a long time coming, and will probably bring more new shooters. It always sucks loosing a division, but if there aren't people participating then why keep it. If we loose a few shooters while the rest change divisions, but gain thousands because of the change, I see that as a good thing.

Another strategy would be to change ESR to make it more appealing. There are a whole mess of 7 and 8 shot revolvers out there with no place to play in IDPA. ESR would have been a great home for them, like a decade ago when they came out.

[enemeth]

idpa has what 20,000 members? if only 3% of them are classified in esr that's what, 600 people? 600 maximum people mad about the loss of esr.

How many people left or were mad due to the flat footed reload? The 18% or so of members who submitted it as an item to be changed, or 6 times as many people.

Majority rules. 3,600 people pissed enough to complain. 600 esr shooters bummed will be replaced by more than 600 people happy to shoot an optic or only against smaller compact guns.

Dropping ESR or not dropping ESR doesn't stop consideration of a new division. Announcing the dropping of ESR without an answer as to how moonclip guns will be addressed only creates uncertainty that adds to sense a of disorganization. Asking the membership for input about a new division, i.e. with a survey, is a much better approach than just saying we decided ESR is gone and it's only a "possibility" moonclip revolvers will be allowed in SSR. Personally I think if they wanted a new division they should consider combining BUG into a real Carry division that had full competition status as a division. ESR and a new division are separate concerns that don't have to be played against each other to see which can draw the most participants. I would like to see both succeed.

Edited November 7, 2014 by enemeth

[rowdyb]

Just to be clear, I don't want ESR to go. I just don't feel it is some travesty if it disappears. One of the local clubs I shoot at has a good percentage of revolver shooters, like 6 each match out of 40 people. So greater than 10% of the match shooting a revo. Every single one of them is unhappy about how idpa handles revolvers. They also happen to be the club members who decide what we'll shoot for a sanctioned pistol match at the club. I wouldn't be surprised if one of those weekends turns into an ICORE match....

To be honest, I too was looking at an 8shot 9mm revolver but then once I learned the rules abandoned the idea.

Edited November 7, 2014 by rowdyb

[Racinready300ex]

I too don't really want to see ESR go, but I understand why it's happening. Maybe they should allow them to shoot 625's in CDP, I'd be game for that. The 625 will be at a disadvantage but who cares.

I really just hope the don't screw up SSR while they are at it. Leave SSR alone. Part of me wants to sell my SSR gun just in case they make it obsolete in the future. Better to dump it now then be stuck with something else can't use.

[S-Hurt]

I too don't really want to see ESR go, but I understand why it's happening. Maybe they should allow them to shoot 625's in CDP, I'd be game for that. The 625 will be at a disadvantage but who cares.

I really just hope the don't screw up SSR while they are at it. Leave SSR alone. Part of me wants to sell my SSR gun just in case they make it obsolete in the future. Better to dump it now then be stuck with something else can't use.

Thats how I feel about my 625 ESR gun now. Dump it now if I can!

[Racinready300ex]

I got lucky and dumped my hole rig 2 days before they announced the change.

I do feel a little bad for the guy I sold it to though.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Racinready300ex

[BillR1]

My 625 was delivered to it's new owner ONE week ago yesterday!

He's going to think I knew something was coming...

Edited November 7, 2014 by BillR1

[Butterpuc]

I got rid of mine a little over a year ago. It was a great gun, but was turning into a $1000 paperweight.

[Akacala]

I'm sad my Ruger Alaskan is no longer legal - Too heaby for SSR, had to shoot it in ESR.

[VonLuger]

Mike,

There is no doubt, as you pointed out, that moonclips are more positive than a speedloader... especially on ejection/extraction. Overall, during the course of a 6 stage match with two reloads per stage (12 total) the moonclip guns will save time on reloads. A 'perfect' speedloader reload can equal a moonclip reload, but there a lot of things that can go wrong with a speedloader... you pointed them out very well and I've experienced all of them, as you surely have.

But, I do think that a speedloader gun running a chronoed 110-115 PF (as most SSR shooters do) will have an edge in down 0 hits at speed, over a 160 PF gun, which I think most smart moonclip shooters will achieve (chrono insurance) if the moon clip guns are set at a 150 PF. Tthere's a .5 second difference between a D-0 and a D-1... that can add up to a point where the reloading advantage gets evened out.

Just my opinion. But I would not feel that if my speedloader gun lost in EX class to a moonclip EX shooting at a 150-160 PF, that it was due to his moonclips. I do think we'd be on equal footing. If I lost, I would have lost to a better shooter on that day.... I wouldn't credit their equipment or blame my equipment.

What he said...

In a combined revolver division If there was some overwhelming advantage to be had by shooting either a 105 PF speed-loader gun or a 150-155 Clipped gun, we would all know beyond a shadow of a doubt in a few short months. Seems like a pretty even match up and it would be very surprising if many guys ditched one set of Revolver gear for another…

[GOF]

If ESR is going to be gone as a division I think IDPA owes it to their dues paying members that now shoot ESR to give them a place to play with their ESR/moonclip guns. IMHO, that can be done by allowing 6-shot moonclip guns at a 150 PF to compete in SSR with speedloarder guns at 105 PF. There is enough recorded match data/scores to show that equal competitive footing would be achieved with that combination - and skill, rather than equipment - would determine the winner.

I thought that was one of IDPA's founding principles.That, and "stability of equipment rules". Why not adhere to them now?

[TonyK]

If you think about it ESP and SSP have even more in common than ESR and SSR, is eliminating ESP next?

[afoulk]

If ESR is going to be gone as a division I think IDPA owes it to their dues paying members that now shoot ESR to give them a place to play with their ESR/moonclip guns. IMHO, that can be done by allowing 6-shot moonclip guns at a 150 PF to compete in SSR with speedloarder guns at 105 PF. There is enough recorded match data/scores to show that equal competitive footing would be achieved with that combination - and skill, rather than equipment - would determine the winner.

I thought that was one of IDPA's founding principles.That, and "stability of equipment rules". Why not adhere to them now?

Now you're being intentionally obtuse. Stability of equipment rules kinda means once the equipment races are over and a winner is pretty clear, you don't start another one to stir the pot. The same loading method and same power factor creates the level playing field and creates stability of the division's equipment rules.

Also among the founding principles was using full power defensive loads. The most available bulk ammo for .45 acp is 230 grain ball that makes on the order of 180 to 190 pf in 4" 625's. 165 is already a significant reduction off commonly available .45 acp.

I also agree that 105 is a joke, but there were just a few commercial loadings in non +p .38 special that made that power factor. One was 158 grain S&B FMJ, the other that I knew of was 130 grain FMJ Independence. I used each of those as well as Speer 158 grain +p lawman stuff before I started reloading. I didn't look real hard at 158 grain lrn stuff though. I still shoot 125pf or greater when I use hand loaded ammo. The same "commercially available" logic simply doesn't apply to .45 acp.

I'll repeat, ESR didn't have to go. The rules that govern awards and class recognition needed to change. Also, when it takes 10 in a division/classification for a match bump, it should take more than a single participant in master class at nationals to get a match bump to DM. Potentially, Experts in both revolver divisions at this year's nationals could have taken bumps directly to DM by beating 9 or fewer people in their class or above.

Edited November 10, 2014 by afoulk

[Pete Whyte]

I would like to see a 625 5inch allowed again. There are a lot of them out there that are not being used in uspsa since the 8 shot has been added to revolver division. Pete

[S&W686]

I sold my S&W 625 this afternoon. I still have my S&W Model 610, but I will be keeping it.