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Possible Elimination of ESR


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Well Bill, how about HQ just change the rules to say that at least 3 classified shooter be required to receive a trophy. or is this too simple a fix. as far as the plaques that I have won, non of them say 1st place sharpshooter. they say Overall champion ESR division. This means I beat all a the masters and expert shooters

because that similar to how USPSA does it, Area and national matches require 10 per division and 10 per class for recognition (area matches regularly don't have enough revolver shooters to get recognized, that means no trophy, ribbon or certificate, you may get mentioned at the award ceremony but probably not)

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bill, you must be the Pelosi for IDPA HQ. deny all that is wrong, defend all that HQ says as the gospel.

Classy, but you didn't answer the question John...

I asked "So again, if getting an award or recognition is not a big deal, why not just shoot your 625 NFS and not worry about being alone in an antiquated division? What real difference does it make? "

If you're one of the ~3% of IDPA shooters still in ESR, why do you need your own division?

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If you're one of the ~3% of IDPA shooters still in ESR, why do you need your own division?

I don't think anyone needs their own division, and if we were designing divisions from scratch, it no longer looks like ESR would be a great idea, but arguing against a division because it means handing out plaques to everyone in that division is silly, because we can fix that problem trivially.
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If you're one of the ~3% of IDPA shooters still in ESR, why do you need your own division?

I don't think anyone needs their own division, and if we were designing divisions from scratch, it no longer looks like ESR would be a great idea, but arguing against a division because it means handing out plaques to everyone in that division is silly, because we can fix that problem trivially.

This ^^

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If you're one of the ~3% of IDPA shooters still in ESR, why do you need your own division?

I don't think anyone needs their own division, and if we were designing divisions from scratch, it no longer looks like ESR would be a great idea, but arguing against a division because it means handing out plaques to everyone in that division is silly, because we can fix that problem trivially.

OK, let's say you eliminate awards for less than 5 shooters in a division. What other reason is there for a division to exist if not to compete (against like-equipment) for awards? Why even have the division? Honest question...

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So again, if getting an award or recognition is not a big deal, why not just shoot your 625 NFS and not worry about being alone in an antiquated division? What real difference does it make?

Don't believe anyone said getting an award or recognition isn't a big deal. After all, if your skills on a particular are sufficient to beat a number of people, shouldn't that be important?

So---yeah, not what people said.

bill, you must be the Pelosi for IDPA HQ. deny all that is wrong, defend all that HQ says as the gospel.

Classy, but you didn't answer the question John...

I asked "So again, if getting an award or recognition is not a big deal, why not just shoot your 625 NFS and not worry about being alone in an antiquated division? What real difference does it make? "

If you're one of the ~3% of IDPA shooters still in ESR, why do you need your own division?

Don't recall anyone saying they were worried about being alone---what they said was they were worried that they won't have any place to shoot anymore, if ESR goes away. That's rather a different thing.

Why do they need their own division? Because their equipment can't shoot in any other division currently if ESR goes away without any other changes.

OK, let's say you eliminate awards for less than 5 shooters in a division. What other reason is there for a division to exist if not to compete (against like-equipment) for awards? Why even have the division? Honest question...

Because saying "not many people shoot ESR" and saying "often there are not others to shoot against in ESR" is not the same thing as saying "no one ever shoots against anyone else in ESR" nor is it saying "shooting the classifier well in ESR doesn't matter."

Have the division for the people who want to shoot it. Don't give out participation prizes, but reward those who shoot well against others. If absolutely nothing else (if getting rid of ESR) at least alter SSR such that people formerly in ESR can still shoot using their equipment. (For example, with a higher power factor as has been suggested.)

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If absolutely nothing else (if getting rid of ESR) at least alter SSR such that people formerly in ESR can still shoot using their equipment. (For example, with a higher power factor as has been suggested.)

I completely agree with this!

IMO, if you eliminate "participation awards", then shooting your 625 NFS (not for score) is really not much different than shooting in a division where you are one of a very few participants. The end result is the same. You got to shoot. You can compare your scores with others. You didn't get an award.

Edited by BillR1
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I wonder if they will finally allow the Safariland Triple Speed loader pouches to be legal in SSR now without getting bumped to ESR?

Probably not since there is no such rule to start with. The Safariland triple is not legal because it doesn't cover enough of the loader. There is no such thing as being bumped to ESR for having non compliant loading pouches.

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IMO, if you eliminate "participation awards", then shooting your 625 NFS (not for score) is really not much different than shooting in a division where you are one of a very few participants. The end result is the same. You got to shoot. You can compare your scores with others. You didn't get an award.

If you don't get scored, how can you compare your scores with others?

Edited to add:

This also ignores the fact that "sometimes having no one else in your class" is not the same as "never having someone else in your class."

Basically---a group of people have equipment they like shooting, that only is allowed in one division. Making those people either not shoot, shoot something else, or shoot for no score is significantly different from being able to shoot in their division with their equipment. Especially when sometimes there ARE others to shoot against.

So again---dropping the entire division seems the worst choice.

Personally, I think that having an overall revolver division with ESR and SSR combined (with ESR being allowed under a higher power factor) is the best choice---but I ALSO think that IDPA should do away with the participation award strategy that they currently have.

Hard to value something that you didn't have to work for---that you can simply "show up" for.

Edited by Thomas H
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IMO, if you eliminate "participation awards", then shooting your 625 NFS (not for score) is really not much different than shooting in a division where you are one of a very few participants. The end result is the same. You got to shoot. You can compare your scores with others. You didn't get an award.

If you don't get scored, how can you compare your scores with others?

???

Nothing stopping you from keeping track of your own score...

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8.2.7. Not For Competition
8.2.7.1. IDPA encourages shooters to practice their gun handling skills with commonly carried firearms.
Many everyday carry firearms do not fit into the 5 competition divisions.
8.2.7.2. IDPA allows clubs to add a “Not for Competition” scoring division for Tier 1 matches only. This
allows calibers smaller than 9mm, carry optics, and other pistols which do not fit into the 5 competition
divisions to participate in local club matches.
8.2.7.3. All other IDPA equipment rules apply for holsters and loading device holders as well as their
placement on the body. Match Directors also have the option to allow junior shooters with .22 rimfire
firearms to begin strings at low ready in lieu of requiring a holster.
8.2.7.4. All IDPA membership rules apply.
8.2.7.5. Clubs are not required to implement this provision, and Match Directors are allowed discretion
with implementation so that match quality remains high.

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I'm just anxious to see what, if any changes occur to SSR as a result of the drop or merge with ESR. Will SSR just full on allow moon clips? Will moon clips only be for a specific caliber and pf to retain a place for the 625? So many questions, any ETA on when they will make their decision?

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Personally, I think that having an overall revolver division with ESR and SSR combined (with ESR being allowed under a higher power factor) is the best choice---but I ALSO think that IDPA should do away with the participation award strategy that they currently have.

Hard to value something that you didn't have to work for---that you can simply "show up" for.

Agreed on both counts!

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How was it when SSR & ESR with a 5 inch barrel were one division? I started in 2009 so I have no idea. Could they go back to that? What was the power factor? Pete

Back then everyone shot 125 power factor and the speedloader guns didn't stand a chance. The 625 pretty much ruled and the little lite weight L frame 646 was becoming the must have gun, a little L frame with a Ti cylinder shooting 125 pf was a dream. After the split and increase to 165 for the clip guns the 646 didn't work so well. The lite weight made recoil a bit harsh and the Ti cylinder had extraction problems at the higher power. The 625 and 610 became the most popular in ESR after the split.
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How was it when SSR & ESR with a 5 inch barrel were one division? I started in 2009 so I have no idea. Could they go back to that? What was the power factor? Pete

Pete, I started after the 2005 rule book was out also, but from talking to some who were in from the start, going back to the original rule book would "fix" a lot of the problems we have to deal with now. It could make our game fun again.

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How was it when SSR & ESR with a 5 inch barrel were one division? I started in 2009 so I have no idea. Could they go back to that? What was the power factor? Pete

Back then everyone shot 125 power factor and the speedloader guns didn't stand a chance. The 625 pretty much ruled and the little lite weight L frame 646 was becoming the must have gun, a little L frame with a Ti cylinder shooting 125 pf was a dream. After the split and increase to 165 for the clip guns the 646 didn't work so well. The lite weight made recoil a bit harsh and the Ti cylinder had extraction problems at the higher power. The 625 and 610 became the most popular in ESR after the split.

I got home from a year overseas, bought a S&W 610 and all the gear, and was ready to jump into SSR full-bore.

About 2 weeks later, before I could even shoot a match, the rulebook changed and I shot ESR by myself.

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Rule changes concerning revolvers and gear seem to be one thing that is a constant. I now have an expensive revolver and associated gear,etc. that has been rendered persona non grata by HQ. I still would like to know what constitutes acceptable percentages for a class/division to exist since that appears to be the reason for doing away with ESR. And from what I have read on other forums I am not alone in my opinion in this matter. The old adage "don't fix it if it ain't broke" applies here.

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If ESR is dropped, I'll shoot my 625 in not for competition. Until HQ. makes up their mind what guns are ok I'll shoot matches at my club only.Even at our club it's hard getting shooters out for IDPA. When the new rules came out,quite a few said the hell with it. Pete

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Every two years we have rule changes and every two years we lose shooters who get tired of the rule changes so we gain a few and lose a few. The year they made the holster changes was the biggest member loss but IDPA recovered. Once again is the email I received from HQ in reference to my email complaint over the ESR change:

I am sorry that you do not like the deletion of ESR. I am afraid that it simply had become a “participate and win a trophy” division. For most matches all you had to do is show up and not get DQ’ed and you would take home a trophy. That combined with the fact that it was a division with basically one gun, from one manufacturer in one caliber meant it’s time as standalone division is over.

We are not going to dump ESR in the cold completely. We are looking at folding back into SSR like it was before. Back before 2005 it was one revolver division which ESR guns ruled. With a higher power factor for moon clip guns we think will come back to being a skills race, not an equipment one. Maybe by combining the two we will actually achieve a division with enough participation to actually bump up a shooter and be a viable and robust division.

This is a sport, which means competition. When you are not competing against anyone, it is just expensive practice for the shooter and realistically it takes up resources, time and energy that could be used for a division that would be attractive to more competitors.

I know that I probably will not change your mind but as a sport we have to grow and adapt. These changes reflect that drive.


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I agree with folding ESR into SSR for one Revolver Division. The issue is PF for the moonclip guns. Prior to 2005 the PF was 125 for both speedloader and moonclip guns. The moonclips dominated the division because of a faster reload.

However, with the change to a 105 PF in SSR, while keeping the 165 PF for ESR, a look at sanctioned match scores will show that the speedloader guns at 105 are often scoring better than the ESR gun.

Moonclips do reload faster, and with fewer "tanked" reloads. At the same PF as speedloader guns they will dominate. Keep a separation of PFs, and they compete on an equal footing since the 105 guns have quicker, and more accurate splits.

I don't agree that 165 PF is a fair figure for revolvers. I feel that a PF in the 150 range would be more appropriate. Chrono a load from a 5 inch 1911 and then chrono the same load from a 4 inch revolver and you will see a noticeable difference. That difference should reflect in the PF for ESR guns molding into SSR.

I don't shoot ESR (it's the only division I'm not classified in... the rest are EX and one MA). I do shoot SSR and have trophies from the 2011 World and a number of State and Regional matches. If a moonclip gun at a 150 PF beats my GP-100 I won't credit his moonclips or blame my speedloader. The 150 PF vs a 105 PF equals better scores for the 105 and faster reloading for the 150. They even out, and both guns will compete on the skill of the shooter and not the equipment. At least, that's what I have seen after 9 years of shooting SSR and seeing ESR scores to compare. Remove JM, Josh Lentz, and Gregg K from the equation and you will see that the scores would even out.

The winner will be the better shooter, and the equipment will not be a factor. I see no reason to kill the moonclip guns. They can play on equal footing in a Revolver Division.

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Personally I'd run the 625, as I think over all I'd be faster with it.

But the real question is what will happen to the turn out at matches. You may not feel you are at a disadvantage with the speedloader gun, but will the other shooters feel the same. Personally when ever I went to a IDPA sanctioned match I wanted to beat all the revolvers in both divisions. And it didn't matter if I was shooting SSR or ESR, I had the same goal.

Not everyone thinks like that.

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Think about it this way. Go to a sanctioned match, 10 stages 120 rounds. So that's about 60 targets, and 60 splits. Probably less than 60 splits with steel. Say your split is .1 faster, that's 6 seconds over the match. So 120 rounds, is probably 10 reloads or more. So to make up 6 seconds in 10 reloads I need to be .6 seconds faster on reloads. I think that is very doable with a moon clip gun.

And .1 slower splits with major IMO would be extreme. I'd bet it's more like .05, which cuts the gap down to .3 per reload. And that's easy.

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