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Possible Elimination of ESR


MWP

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There is a .5 second difference between a Down 0 and a Down 1. They add up. Split time does count... but D0s vs D1s count more. A shooter of equal skill will have less D1s with a 105PF and they would with a 150-165 PF when running at the same speed... same splits. I think that is the factor that brings moonclip and speedloader guns into equal competition. It will be skill, not equipment.

If I run a 18 round stage with one D1 with a 105 PF and a 150-165 gun comes in with 4 or 5 D1s in the same time, the reload speed is negated. Just my opinion, but I think that's a realistic assessment.... unless JM is doing the shooting with the moonclip gun. Us mere mortals will likely see the D0-D1 difference.

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The difference is you are assuming that a higher PF = a loss of accuracy. My 625 is more accurate than my 686. And if you get a sight picture and press the trigger with out disturbing that the bullet goes where it's supposed to. Doesn't matter how powerful the round is. It may take a little longer split to do it, but I don't think it's much.

My scores improved when I went to ESR. And it came down to reload speed, the accuracy was still there.

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The difference is you are assuming that a higher PF = a loss of accuracy. My 625 is more accurate than my 686. And if you get a sight picture and press the trigger with out disturbing that the bullet goes where it's supposed to. Doesn't matter how powerful the round is. It may take a little longer split to do it, but I don't think it's much.

My scores improved when I went to ESR. And it came down to reload speed, the accuracy was still there.

I can see that. My classifier score is just slightly lower in ESR than SSR.

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Mike, my assumption of a loss of accuracy is at speed... when you are trying to double tap 3 targets in sub-3.50 seconds. The 105 PF gun has an edge. The accepted speed advantage to a moonclip load is there. No doubt. But for every D1 the 165 PF gun gets, as opposed to the D0 the 105 gets, the speed increase in the moonclip reload fades.

Over a 80-100 round match, I think the 105 accuracy will equal the 165 speed of reload advantage and they become a "wash". Skill, rather than equipment, will win. Just my opinion.

I would have no qualms about putting my SSR gun against a ESR gun (I do it regularly in FL). If I get beat, it's not equipment. I just got beat by a better shooter on that day.

Even BillR1 notes that his classifier scores are only "just slightly lower in ESR than SSR". Seems to me they could play on equal footing.

I see no reason SSR & ESR could not be combined if the PF difference was addressed, and maintained.

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Even BillR1 notes that his classifier scores are only "just slightly lower in ESR than SSR". Seems to me they could play on equal footing.

Don't use ME for an example...I am but a lowly Sharpshooter in both revolver divisions. :)

(I was, however, fortunate enough at my last sanctioned match to take home the SSR DC trophy, beating an ESR MA along the way)

I'd really like to see a straight-up run between Josh Lenz and JM using their respective equipment and PFs!

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Even BillR1 notes that his classifier scores are only "just slightly lower in ESR than SSR". Seems to me they could play on equal footing.

Don't use ME for an example...I am but a lowly Sharpshooter in both revolver divisions. :)

(I was, however, fortunate enough at my last sanctioned match to take home the SSR DC trophy, beating an ESR MA along the way)

I'd really like to see a straight-up run between Josh Lenz and JM using their respective equipment and PFs!

Look back through the IDPA nationals results, all the results are there.

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I read this whole thread last night. yikes... I am rather new to IDPA, especially with a revolver. I just got a S&W Model 10 and rig set up in August. I have not even shot an IDPA match with the new revolver yet but I have shot several USPSA matches and one Steel Challenge match with it. Been shooting Revolver in USPSA since 2006.

I personally don't think eliminating a division saves IDPA anything. As other have said up thread, change the awards rules for larger matches. Eliminating ESR will not save IDPA any money. That said, I think you're better off eliminating ESR rather than trying to roll moonclips guns back into SSR.

IMHO I don't see anyway to level the playing field. The power factor difference between ESR and SSR, even as large as it is, is not going to make up for the reload speed and reliability of moonclips. Last year in the run up to the the USPSA Revolver National match I ran an ongoing match against myself. At each club level match I attended I shot the match in Revolver division with my 6-Shot Major 625 and Production with my 8-shot Minor 627 (same setup, guns are nearly identical and I used the same holster rig). I alternated which gun I shot first from match to match. In total Twenty-three stages ranging from 1 rd to 31 rds, averaging 20.13 rds/stage, total round count of 463rds that I scored as a mini match with two competitors (Major-me vs Minor-me). The Minor gun won but by less than 1% over those twenty-three stages. Remember the Minor gun was moonclip fed 8-shot with short cartridges (38 Short Colt).

Now this was USPSA where the Major guns got a scoring bonus and the Minor Gun got a capacity bonus. If they combine ESR and SSR you have moonclip guns going against speed loaders. Sure the Major/moonclip gun has to deal with a higher power factor (165 PF or some other selected number) without any scoring bonus, but the Minor/speedloader gun does NOT get a capacity bonus and has to deal with speed-loader reloads. There are less reloads in an IDPA stage but IMHO a 625 with moonclips even at 165PF is going to stomp a mud-hole in 105PF speed-loader fed guns. My splits with my 625 are not that much slower than 627/M10 especial at IDPA distances to targets. From running my M10 I can hit some good reloads times but the reliability just is not there compared to moonclip fed guns. A "sweet" speed-loader reload can be just as fast as a "sweet" moonclip reload but the average speed-loader reload is always going to be slower than the average moonclip reload. Add in the likelihood of, and consequences of, a fumbled speedloader reload that is nearly always going to cost more time than a fumbled moonclip reload and I don't see a straight forward way to even the playing field.

Individual shooters may find they personally can run a Minor/Speedloader revolver for a better score than a Major/moonclip revolver due to their recoil tolerance, but I think you will find those that can tolerate the additional recoil will drive the Major/moonclip guns to much better times than the Minor/moonclip guns. Trying to use power factor to level moonclip vs speedloader is not going to be fair across the board. A person that is recoil sensitive is severely punished for shooting moonclips while someone that is fairly recoil tolerant gets a huge bonus shooting the moonclip gun. How do you decide what level of power factor difference is "fair"

That was a lot of rambling to simple say leave ESR alone, OR eliminate it. I don't see a fair way to level the playing field between moonclips and speedloaders that will be fair to all shooters.

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Try shooting both SSR and ESR guns at IDPA targets, with time plus scoring, and they even out. It's like shooting all A's all the time. The minor gun has a huge advantage here.

Edited by MWP
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mcb... I can see your point and it is well thought out. I have been shooting IDPA SSR since 2005, and have shot matches from the 2011 World Championship on down through Nationals, Regionals and State Championships. I have also shot some USPSA with my SSR gun. The scoring difference in IDPA vs USPSA is, IMHO, significant enough that the acknowledged reload speed advantage of the moon clip gun can be neutralized by the accuracy at speed advantage (in the hands of many shooters) that the 105 .38 Special guns have. Shooting Cs with a major gun in USPSA gives you the same as a minor A. But, not in IDPA. That half second difference in a Down 0 (A zone) and a Down 1 (C zone) adds up. The 105 PF has the advantage in Down 0s at speed, and I do think that will even out the reload speed advantage.

Looking at the overall scores from many sanctioned IDPA matches (if you toss out JM, Lentz, etc.) show that in IDPA competition they are competitive against each other. I don't shoot ESR, and really don't have a 'dog in this fight', but I would hate to see some of my fellow revolver shooters be eliminated from the game with the guns they like.

Edited by GOF
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You guys might be right but I still think its going to be very hard if not impossible to balance this idea. They (well some of they) thought 6-Shot Major vs 8-Shot Minor in USPSA would balance or at least be somewhat close and yet 8-Shot Minor is completely dominating the division and it's been a rule for less than a year. Only one 6-Shot Major gun finished in the top 20 (13th) at the 2014 USPSA Revolver Nationals. Likewise in IDPA I think no matter how hard you try to balance moonclips vs speed-loader by requiring a differences in required power factor you will find that one or the other will dominate the division and in short order. If competitors are good at anything it will be seeking out and finding the competitive edge within a division's given rule set. Depending on the selected power factor floors a combined ESR/SSR division will either continue as the SSR division but we let the ESR play too, cause we are being nice, or it will become the new ESR division and the SSR guns get to stay, again cause we are being nice. I will be really surprised if a set of rules can be found that would put ESR and SSR guns on the same footing for a large portion of the competitors. I will be watching to see what happens.

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Many of the top shooters at USPSA nationals only brought the 8 shots. The ones who did bring both were scared to run 6 and roll the dice against the 8s.

In IDPA the race isn't close enough to compare the two guns. I doubt anyone here would bet a paycheck against Josh or Jerry even if they got an ESP gun with the same capacity. Moon clips VS speed loader will be different per the individual, but the same people are going to win the match regardless.

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I'm not certain comparing the 'top shots' when discussing merging ESR/SSR is a meaningful comparision. I think looking at a more local 'club match' atmosphere (where the vast majority of SSR & ESR shooters compete and where the biggest impact will be felt by eliminating ESR) would be better.

Through a quirk of geography I have been privileged to shoot my SSR/EX gun against some of the top ESR shooters (including EXs) in Florida. I beat them more often than they beat me. I can't credit or blame equipment. It comes down to who was 'in the zone' that day. If I'm not on, they win. If I am on, I win.

I've been doing this for a few years, and while I'm only speaking of Florida, I suspect that it would be the same at the club level in most states.

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The risk is if they screw up SSR they really kill two divisions. I think SSR is working pretty well as is, and if they leave it alone it will continue.

MCB how many more C's did you shoot with the major gun? And when you were shooting were you accepting more C's with the major gun do to the scoring system? Personally I would be a little looser shooting major in USPSA. But in IDPA I find you need to get -0 with almost every shot. So your results may be a little skewed. I'd love to see someone do the same kind of test as yours for this change.

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Many of the top shooters at USPSA nationals only brought the 8 shots. The ones who did bring both were scared to run 6 and roll the dice against the 8s.

In IDPA the race isn't close enough to compare the two guns. I doubt anyone here would bet a paycheck against Josh or Jerry even if they got an ESP gun with the same capacity. Moon clips VS speed loader will be different per the individual, but the same people are going to win the match regardless.

You don't think the GMs and Ms where out shooting both guns in practice and at local matches before the Nationals and choose the 8-shooter? If they only brought an 8-shooter it was because they had made up their minds it was the better gun before leaving for the match. The 8-Shot is dominating. If it was not the better choice they would not being shooting it and we would be seeing a resurgence of the 6-shot Major gun after the newness of 8-shot minor worn off. Look at Area match results since the Nationals and 8-Shot Minor is still dominating.

Area 3 was 7 of 8 with the 1 Major finishing 6th.

Area 8 was 11 of 12 with the 1 Major finishing second to last

Area 7 was 14 or 17 with the 3 Major finishing in the bottom third

Area 4 was all minor, 9 shooters.

Area 2 was all minor, 15 shooters

If they combine ESR and SSR IMHO you will see the same thing the best shooters will look at the rules, play with the options, and pick the equipment that they can win with (I have little doubt is will all be one or the other depending on the rules) and the division will be dominated by that equipment both because it's the better choice for most shooters and because many of the everyday shooters will follow what the top shooters are doing.

I personally would rather see them simply leave the two division alone (at this point I am really glad I passed on a buddies 4" 625 earlier this summer, my 625 is a 5"). I see no advantage or saving for IDPA to eliminate ESR. I do see that combining the two division will have as much if not more problems than benefits.

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The idpa classifier is not a good comparison becuase it is not reflective of an actual IDPA match.

There are only four reloads in the classifier right?

If you are at a big match where there are 12-18 stages with at least 2 reloads happening on every stage, the moonclip gun is going to destroy the speedloader gun if you have two equal shooters.

ESR was created because speedloader guns were hopelessly outclassed to being with right?

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If they combine ESR and SSR IMHO you will see the same thing the best shooters will look at the rules, play with the options, and pick the equipment that they can win with (I have little doubt is will all be one or the other depending on the rules) and the division will be dominated by that equipment both because it's the better choice for most shooters and because many of the everyday shooters will follow what the top shooters are doing.

I personally would rather see them simply leave the two division alone (at this point I am really glad I passed on a buddies 4" 625 earlier this summer, my 625 is a 5"). I see no advantage or saving for IDPA to eliminate ESR. I do see that combining the two division will have as much if not more problems than benefits.

Agreed!

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Seanc... When IDPA had moon clips and speedloader gun combined in one Revolver division the PF was 125 for both guns. That's a 'puff load' for a 625/610, while being a +P load for the .38s. There were only a few factory rounds that even made 125 PF from a .38, which meant the .38 Spl crowd had to reload.

A 125 PF load from a 625/610 in a N-frame actually had less recoil than a .38! Add the moon clip reload advantage and it's not hard to see which guns dominated SSR. Change that to a 105 PF for .38s and a 150-165 PF for the moon clips and things change quite a bit.

The USPSA comparision doesn't take into account the fact that a C (D1 in IDPA) counts the same for a major gun as a A (D0 in IDPA) does for a minor gun. In IDPA those "Cs" cost a half second instead of counting the same. When USPSA allowed 8 shot minor guns they not only held their own against the 6 shot major guns, but beat them... maybe because good revolver shooters watch their sights and the lesser recoil allowed the minor guns to shoot more As, and the extra 2 rounds saved a reload or two (which saved time).

I think the .5 second difference between "As and Cs" in IDPA will have a similar affect in evening things out between 105 and 150-165 PFs. I have no qualms about shooting my 105 gun in EX class against a 165 PF moon clip EX. If I lose it won't be equipment. It's still the indian and not the arrow.

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Seanc... When IDPA had moon clips and speedloader gun combined in one Revolver division the PF was 125 for both guns. That's a 'puff load' for a 625/610, while being a +P load for the .38s. There were only a few factory rounds that even made 125 PF from a .38, which meant the .38 Spl crowd had to reload.

A 125 PF load from a 625/610 in a N-frame actually had less recoil than a .38! Add the moon clip reload advantage and it's not hard to see which guns dominated SSR. Change that to a 105 PF for .38s and a 150-165 PF for the moon clips and things change quite a bit.

The USPSA comparision doesn't take into account the fact that a C (D1 in IDPA) counts the same for a major gun as a A (D0 in IDPA) does for a minor gun. In IDPA those "Cs" cost a half second instead of counting the same. When USPSA allowed 8 shot minor guns they not only held their own against the 6 shot major guns, but beat them... maybe because good revolver shooters watch their sights and the lesser recoil allowed the minor guns to shoot more As, and the extra 2 rounds saved a reload or two (which saved time).

I think the .5 second difference between "As and Cs" in IDPA will have a similar affect in evening things out between 105 and 150-165 PFs. I have no qualms about shooting my 105 gun in EX class against a 165 PF moon clip EX. If I lose it won't be equipment. It's still the indian and not the arrow.

Not quite right, Major C-hits count for 4-points and Minor A-hits are worth 5-points. You have to shoot Major C's in 80% of the time to get the same score as Minor A's.

In the end it doesn't matter which setup is better, ESR or SSR, it's unlike tweaks to power factor is going to level the two division when combined. One will dominate and one will fade away.

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MCB, thanks for the correction. I never did fully understand the USPSA scoring system. I do understand the IDPA system. And I still think a 150-165 PF gun will collect more D1s, at speed, than a 105 PG gun will. I do think that the PF difference will even things out. I've seen it in matches.

You are right that one will dominate and one will fade away. I tend to think the 105 PF will be dominating... but that still gives the ESR guys & gals a place to shoot their guns.... which completely abolishing ESR with no alternative will not. I say "Let them all play"... it will always be the Indian and not the arrow,

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Questions.

How stable do you all think the division will be if clip guns begin to dominate the division? Think HQ will tinker more with power factor or would they just completely drop clip guns?

If they get the power factor part "right" and the guns are competitive equals (I don't even think this is possible.), do you think "lost brass" considerations will lead to clip guns having greater participation at sanctioned matches?

To me, it seems like ESR guns' success in a mixed division would lead to their eventual downfall.

In the end, I realistically only see this going one way. Speedloaders. I'll be playing other games while y'all sort this junk out.

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I think there is the chance we will see a decline in SSR turn out. IF clip guns do end up having a edge, then SSR shooters will have to decide. Switch to Major clip gun, shoot inferior equipment or change divisions. Now if they wanted to shoot a Major ESR gun, they would be doing it already. Some will switch to be competitive others wont.

So I think with this change the future of revolver in IDPA is up in the air. I hope when they set the PF for the clip guns they get it right the 1st time. It could really hurt SSR if they don't strike a good balance. I really hope they don't just jump into something with out considering what it will do to the division. 8 Shot minor went pretty smooth didn't it?

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Mike, I think you hit it pretty much on the head ... It all depends upon what Rules Berryville sets. If past performance regarding clear & concise Rule is any indication, I would say that there is at least a 50/50 chance they'll 'screw the pooch' on this one.

For all the various forum threads that start with "What Revolver Should I get For IDPA?" I would offer a one word reply - WAIT! And, then wait some more because the folks in Berryville may not get it right the first time, or the second time. Don't invest any money in new equipment until "That Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight" starts hitting the target, instead of their foot.

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I'm either really good at using speedloaders or I need more practice with moon clips, because I don't see a quantifiable speed difference in reloading the two. Of course, my chambers still resemble chambers and not funnels in each gun. Maybe if any part of my SSP gun that is visible must be factory (including the inside of the mag well) then my SSR revolver's cylinder (visible when reloading) should have to be factory as well. With ESR rolled into SSR, the same could apply and then everyone can struggle equally to reload their revolvers.

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You guys might be right but I still think its going to be very hard if not impossible to balance this idea. They (well some of they) thought 6-Shot Major vs 8-Shot Minor in USPSA would balance or at least be somewhat close

Well this "they" knew the USPSA rule change would kill the 625. Back in Vegas when the revolver division was shooting (all 17 of us), Rob and Jerry had Phil engaged in a conversation about how great allowing 8 shooters would be. I told them then that they would kill the 6 shooter and they kept saying that it wouldn't. I think that they really did know that it would kill the 6 shooter but neither one of them cared to shoot major anymore from a revolver.

I think that blending the 2 IDPA divisions at their current power factors would be fine. I think that ultimately the fastest shooter will be the one that has mastered speedloders and is able to take advantage of the speed that a 105 power factor gun can be run at. We will see what they come up with.

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