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Possible Elimination of ESR


MWP

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What do we think of this?

I think moon clipped guns making 165pf are very similar to speed loader guns only making 105pf.

Can they be lumped in to 1 division or is that a bad move? 1 division, 2 power factors?

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I agree, roll it back into one revolver division, but keep appropriate power floors.

Maybe let the clipgunners slide down to 150000 or 155000 because they say their sixguns just naturally kick harder than autos. But not to .38 wadcutter levels of SSR.

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I'm not sure that merging the two divisions is a good idea. Reloads with moon clips are so much faster than reloads with speedloaders that moon clip guns will be required to be competitive. I don't think that the difference in power floors is a big enough penalty to even out the times.

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I'm not sure that merging the two divisions is a good idea. Reloads with moon clips are so much faster than reloads with speedloaders that moon clip guns will be required to be competitive. I don't think that the difference in power floors is a big enough penalty to even out the times.

I do. (as mentioned above) Major without a slide to eat recoil vs shooting the lightest loads in the game is a huge difference.

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This is Karma kicking me in the hindquarters for wanting USPSA to let the 8 shot guns in at minor power factor!

I'll have to see if we can round up some willing participants to try 165 power factor moon clipped guns vs. 105 pf speed loader guns. I'm sure some of the locals would try it and we have some pretty good revo shooters here for the test. Considering that IDPA targets tend to be fairly close I'm guessing that the splits from the 105 power factor guns are going to eat up a lot of the speed that the moonclipped guys get.

-ld

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I don't think that ESR needed to go, at all. I just think the stupid trophy rules that give awards to people that competed with no-one or lost to the Division Champion need to go. Don't shutter the division, just modify the rules to reduce the impact of under-participation. Let people play where they want to, but don't reward anti-competitive behavior or just plain losing.

If you have to drop one revolver division, though, I think ESR is the one. The gun that dominates/defines the division only really exists for use in competition and doesn't belong in SSR. Just because we're the last competition to obsolete it, doesn't mean we're stuck with it. Let it die, if it comes to that, but there's no reason it has to.

Speedloaders are unique to IDPA in my parts. I have no ICORE available within 5 hours. Moonclip guns can play in USPSA or IDPA Not for Competition and be fine. The one wheelgun division that is left needs to be a true level playing field. I feel that playing field should include speed loaders and not moon clips.

It's contrived at best to call ESR at a reduced power factor equivalent to SSR under the current rules. I'm not buying it. I'm not sure why anyone would. According to the classification times for ESR and SSR, ESR guns at 165 pf are already faster than SSR guns.

Killing ESR then creating a division where the same one gun dominates a different division makes no sense at all.

This should really be a no brainer for HQ.

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There isn't as much of a difference as it appears. The classifier times are, to me, indicative of that.

The times to make master in SSR and ESR are only 1 second apart. For 4 reloads difference. That's most likely a great representation of reloads being .25 faster at that level. But the benefit of shooting minor is huge for making perfect hits at speed.

The same can be said for expert, a half second difference per reload. Most likely accurate per that class. Still the benefit appears to be towards the heavy gun with light loads.

I spent some time seriously focusing with both a 686 and 625. My SSR time came in at 93.xx. The 625 was more like riding a bull, a 99.xx with the big difference in points coming on fighting to keep the gun under control at the longer ranges.

Most matches in IDPA aren't won or lost by tenths of a second in either revolver division. They are won or lost on hits. According to the example reload times above given by the classifier, on an 18 round stage, just one -1 from the snap of a 625 making major will make up the difference in reload times. Let alone the actual accurate splits on target between the two guns...

Edited by MWP
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ESR should go. People don't want to shoot revolver as it is, nevermind an expensive novelty revolver that can't really be used in any other action pistol game and that recoils like hell. There's hardly anyone that shoots the division as is. The only person that absolutely dominated it was, of course, Jerry Miculek, who was obviously shooting it for sponsorship reasons. Would he really fly over to Springfield to beat up on like, 3 other random ESR guys?

Aaron - If we're getting rid of recognition for 2 or 3 competitor divisions, SSR is going to have to go too. It generally has a very poor turnout, especially in your neck of the woods. It's more popular in my area, but not by much.

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In terms of competition, 5 per division/class minimum for required full recognition would be good. I just think there needs to be 2 competing at the same class to hand out 1 award. If there's only 1 competitor, no awards are required to be issued. If there are between 2 and 5, awards can be anything from printed certificates to regular awards at MD discretion. Once there are more than 5 signed up, 1 regular award should be issued. I don't know how to handle DC, but I'm thinking if you beat no one at your own classification level or above, it shouldn't be available. DC should also get first in class award if it was available.

If you take the reward away from people seeking cheap trophies, I think people will actually seek out competition rather than splitting themselves when competition is available. Either way, the impact on matches from small divisions/classes can be mitigated.

I don't know anything about the cost of a division at the HQ level, but if that's driving the decision pare the division, so be it. Trash ESR, keep SSR the same (or increase power factor) and keep moving.

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I don't like it, particularly as I just made the jump to procure an ESP revo to try that next year in addition to SSP, ESP, CDP that I already shoot.

If the driving force is to prevent a MD at a santioned match from having to buy an extra $10 trophy, please. Let's not think of the participants... many of which have probably dropped enough in their rig cover the cost of most of the ESP trophies given east of the Mississippi over a season. Woulld be far less impactful to add 1 additional shooter to the match to cover the expense and let folks play where they desire.

My 2¢

Edited by boljr01
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In terms of competition, 5 per division/class minimum for required full recognition would be good. I just think there needs to be 2 competing at the same class to hand out 1 award. If there's only 1 competitor, no awards are required to be issued. If there are between 2 and 5, awards can be anything from printed certificates to regular awards at MD discretion. Once there are more than 5 signed up, 1 regular award should be issued. I don't know how to handle DC, but I'm thinking if you beat no one at your own classification level or above, it shouldn't be available. DC should also get first in class award if it was available.

If you take the reward away from people seeking cheap trophies, I think people will actually seek out competition rather than splitting themselves when competition is available. Either way, the impact on matches from small divisions/classes can be mitigated.

I don't know anything about the cost of a division at the HQ level, but if that's driving the decision pare the division, so be it. Trash ESR, keep SSR the same (or increase power factor) and keep moving.

This makes alot of sense!

I'm shooting a good bit in SSR lately, and I wouldn't have an issue with the PF going back to 125. I could then load the same ammo for ICORE and USPSA. The problem was/is that you make the division "for reloaders only". Most off the shelf .38 Special ammo doesn't make it.

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The problem was/is that you make the division "for reloaders only". Most off the shelf .38 Special ammo doesn't make it.

That's precisely why the SSR PF is now where it is. About the only commonly available commercial load that made 125 are the 158 gr LSWCHP +P from Rem and Win.

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I dunno about that.

I think the right thing to do is to Tear Down That Wall and reunify the revolvers.

SSR had to fudge the power floor to let people shoot Cheapmart Econoball, (Note that a midrange wadcutter, a 148 at 750 is f = 111,000 and I have shot a number of them from LAMR with roundnose on the reloads.) , there is no reason not to monkey with clipgun power floor.

Convene a Tiger Team at the range and have them shoot different velocity loads in a 625 until they agree the felt recoil is like a 1911 with Asym Practical Match 230 at 750. I have seen numbers in the 150000 range mentioned by revolver partisans, but a side by side test would nail it down.

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You wont reunify anything, 625's will be the only competitive gun in the game if you allow them in SSR. And if you lower the PF it will only make it worse.

Personally my bill drill with a minor gun is only about .2 faster than with major. My reload with a speedloader gun is .75 slower. I'd bet on any given stage I will be faster with a 625 even at 175 PF. I think the speedloaders are what makes SSR more popular. If people realize they can no longer be competitive with what they have they will probably stop shooting wheel guns.

I hate to say it, but they should probably just let the 625 die. Although it will be interesting to see who wins SSR at the next nationals with no ESR division.

Edited by Racinready300ex
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I think the difference in reloads between speedloaders and moon clips is more than 0.25 to 0.50. More like 0.75 to 1.0. And speedloader reloads are more error prone as well -- they sometimes go really wrong.

If the 625 just dominates revolver, then the most common revolver (4" .357 with speedloaders) would have no place to play.

Edited by M1911
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You wont reunify anything, 625's will be the only competitive gun in the game if you allow them in SSR. And if you lower the PF it will only make it worse.

Personally my bill drill with a minor gun is only about .2 faster than with major. My reload with a speedloader gun is .75 slower. I'd bet on any given stage I will be faster with a 625 even at 175 PF. I think the speedloaders are what makes SSR more popular. If people realize they can no longer be competitive with what they have they will probably stop shooting wheel guns.

I hate to say it, but they should probably just let the 625 die. Although it will be interesting to see who wins SSR at the next nationals with no ESR division.

Wow...that's sure not my experience. My splits are much faster with my 110PF ammo than with the 625 I had. At a recent sanctioned match, my SSR (SS) score beat everyone in ESR including an ESR/MA shooter. My reloads are a bit slower, but I made up for it in the split times at longer ranges.

I'm in awe of anyone that can shoot a 165pf revolver that fast and accurately. I sure can't.

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The reload difference is directly proportional to class. The IDPA classifier clearly shows that with it's times.

A top shooters reloads are around .5 difference between the two guns. It's not as far as it appears.

In lower classes the times start to open up.

The point is, I don't think it's going to make a difference. How often are matches close enough that it makes a difference? If you drop 40 points over 15 stages and the match is a half second apart, isn't there I bunch of other places to look to save the time?

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If they combine Revolver divisions with the same power factor, moonclipped .38 Spl will rule and the other guns will die a quick death. That creates an IMMEDIATE equipment race.

If they raise the SSR PF to above 115 (there are plenty of factory loads that make 115), factory ammo will no longer be an option in 38 so it becomes a reloader-only gun like it was before. IMHO, a logical solution to combining the SSR & ESR divisions would be (1) Keep SSR rules as is and (2) drop PF for moonclip guns to 150.

That would create a level playing field where skill will determine the winner, not equipment. That's not a new concept. It has been advocated before. It made sense then and it makes sense now.

SSR EX

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