Possible Elimination of ESR

[Racinready300ex]

GOF makes a good point, I hadn't even considered a moonclipped 38 as a option. That would be sick. I still don't agree that allowing moonclip guns to play at 150 PF will level the playing field.

BillR1, just because you beat a ESR master doesn't mean you couldn't be faster with moon clips. Have you ever had a loader not want to release? Or a round hang up coming out? What about that one loaded round popping out instead of dropping in? Or the worst when the you grab the loader and it goes off in your hand? None of that will ever happen with clips.

I'm pretty sure IDPA used to have a combined revo division, and it split into two so speedloader guns could compete. I don't think putting them back together is going to help. That said, I'd cut my 686 for moons in a heart beat if they allow moons in SSR. lol

SSR-MA

[MWP]

IDPA split the division because the rules allowed clipped or speedloader, 125pf.

A 625 with 185gr round nose doing 700fps was stupid light, and unfair in comparison to speed loaders.

[BillR1]

GOF makes a good point, I hadn't even considered a moonclipped 38 as a option. That would be sick. I still don't agree that allowing moonclip guns to play at 150 PF will level the playing field.

BillR1, just because you beat a ESR master doesn't mean you couldn't be faster with moon clips. Have you ever had a loader not want to release? Or a round hang up coming out? What about that one loaded round popping out instead of dropping in? Or the worst when the you grab the loader and it goes off in your hand? None of that will ever happen with clips.

I'm pretty sure IDPA used to have a combined revo division, and it split into two so speedloader guns could compete. I don't think putting them back together is going to help. That said, I'd cut my 686 for moons in a heart beat if they allow moons in SSR. lol

SSR-MA

Moon clips are probably a little faster. Shooting 165pf in a revolver is NOT faster. (for me anyway)

Moonclips in a 686?? Sign me up!!

[S-Hurt]

Its amazing we even have to talk about this. IDPA divisions were created to give everyone an equal playing field, in fact, they are creating two new divisions to keep everyone on an equal playing field, yet they are contemplating doing away with ESR and lumping all revolvers into one division. WTH

Two weeks ago I purchased

SSR 686 = $910

Ready Tactical holster = $40

Ready Tactical speed loader holders = $15

Dawson Precision fiber optic = $45

Comp II speed loaders = $40

Comp III speed loaders = $45

Black bullets Tennessee = $96

IDPA screwing up the revolver divisions = PRICELESS

[GOF]

Mike,

There is no doubt, as you pointed out, that moonclips are more positive than a speedloader... especially on ejection/extraction. Overall, during the course of a 6 stage match with two reloads per stage (12 total) the moonclip guns will save time on reloads. A 'perfect' speedloader reload can equal a moonclip reload, but there a lot of things that can go wrong with a speedloader... you pointed them out very well and I've experienced all of them, as you surely have.

But, I do think that a speedloader gun running a chronoed 110-115 PF (as most SSR shooters do) will have an edge in down 0 hits at speed, over a 160 PF gun, which I think most smart moonclip shooters will achieve (chrono insurance) if the moon clip guns are set at a 150 PF. Tthere's a .5 second difference between a D-0 and a D-1... that can add up to a point where the reloading advantage gets evened out.

Just my opinion. But I would not feel that if my speedloader gun lost in EX class to a moonclip EX shooting at a 150-160 PF, that it was due to his moonclips. I do think we'd be on equal footing. If I lost, I would have lost to a better shooter on that day.... I wouldn't credit their equipment or blame my equipment.

Edited November 4, 2014 by GOF

[MWP]

Mike,

There is no doubt, as you pointed out, that moonclips are more positive than a speedloader... especially on extraction. Overall, during the course of a 6 stage match with two reloads per stage (12 total) the moonclip guns will save time on reloads. A 'perfect' speedloader reload can equal a moonclip reload, but there a lot of things that can go wrong with a speedloader... you pointed them out very well and I've experienced all of them, as you surely have.

But, I do think that a speedloader gun running a chromed 110-115 (as most SSR shooters do) will have an edge in down 0 hits at speed, over a 160 PF gun, which I think most smart moonclip shooters will achieve (chrono insurance) if the moon clip guns are set at a 150 PF. Just my opinion. But I would not feel that if my speedloader gun lost in EX class to a moonclip EX, at a 150 PF, that it was due to his moonclips. I do think we'd be on equal footing.

Exactly! But 165pf so there's no complaits that it's too easy. Keeps all guns and equipment in play, and makes two small divisions one small division.

S-Hurt, the good news is, I think the 686 and it's speedloaders will be protected.

[S-Hurt]

Mike,

There is no doubt, as you pointed out, that moonclips are more positive than a speedloader... especially on extraction. Overall, during the course of a 6 stage match with two reloads per stage (12 total) the moonclip guns will save time on reloads. A 'perfect' speedloader reload can equal a moonclip reload, but there a lot of things that can go wrong with a speedloader... you pointed them out very well and I've experienced all of them, as you surely have.

But, I do think that a speedloader gun running a chromed 110-115 (as most SSR shooters do) will have an edge in down 0 hits at speed, over a 160 PF gun, which I think most smart moonclip shooters will achieve (chrono insurance) if the moon clip guns are set at a 150 PF. Just my opinion. But I would not feel that if my speedloader gun lost in EX class to a moonclip EX, at a 150 PF, that it was due to his moonclips. I do think we'd be on equal footing.

Exactly! But 165pf so there's no complaits that it's too easy. Keeps all guns and equipment in play, and makes two small divisions one small division.

S-Hurt, the good news is, I think the 686 and it's speedloaders will be protected.

I guess my concern is my competitive nature. I want to compete with those who have the same equipment. I don't want to gain or LOSE based on my gun, bullets or equipment. 45 acp minor vs 38 special ..... moon clips vs speed loaders ..... 165 or 150 power factor vs 105 power factor Again, isn't it one of the basic IDPA principles for everyone to be on an equal playing field?

[Racinready300ex]

Either way it will be interesting to see what happens. I'd say keep the moon clips guns running at 165 if you let them play in SSR.

I stopped shooting IDPA sense the new rule book came out. When we will see what the final rules say maybe I'll start again. But, with the last rule book I had to remove my grips, and replace my hammers. Now my ESR gun would be worthless. Luckily I sold it last weekend.

So I'm not going to spend any money on gear for IDPA until they settle down with the rule changes. I can't keep buying shit and replacing it just because HQ can't make up there mind. So looks like USPSA is still in my future.

[GOF]

S-Hurt... you make a good point. In a "perfect world" it would prevail. But, the IDPA World is far from perfect. SSR and ESR are, basically, step children. To have those two revolver divisions comprise 40% of the Divisions... when less than 10% of IDPA members shoot those guns does create an admin problem. The participation doesn't justify two separate revolver divisions. Melding them into one division, with PF rules that keep both guns on a more-or-less equal competitive footing, seems to make the most sense.

I'd be willing to bet that if IDPA opts for the CCP Division option it would see more competitors than all revolver shooters combined.

[GOF]

Mike... I can sympathize with the problems that IDPA's "Equipment Rule Of The Day" creates. Maybe they'll finally get their "stuff" together this time. You can't keep changing the equipment rules when shooters - going by the last Rule - spent good money, and like you, now find it's not legal.

[joninwv]

Keep in mind, they said they are going to eliminate ESR. If the SSR rules are modified, I would not expect it to be in a way that favors the ESR guns over the SSR ones.

[S-Hurt]

I hate that everything with the revolver division is up in the air for the next 2-4 months? Now is the time to prepare for the 2015 shooting season.

[jsg]

I like to shoot ESR in the winter and then usually go back to ESP some time in the spring. This new crap is really bothersome.

I load my 45 revolver rounds differently than my 45 1911 rounds. I do not want to load up 2000 "revolver" rounds just to discover I will not be shooting them often.

I love my moon clips and the ease of collecting my brass.

I would love to see them drop the PF to 150. My hands would appreciate it.

I hope they either find a way to let my 625 compete in SSR or they just keep the ESR class. Having USPSA kill my 625 was bad enough.

[M1911]

GOF makes a good point, I hadn't even considered a moonclipped 38 as a option. That would be sick. I still don't agree that allowing moonclip guns to play at 150 PF will level the playing field.

I get the impression that moonclips don't work as well in 38 Spcl as they do in 45 ACP. 45 ACP is a short, fat rimless cartridge. The long, skinny .38 Spcl rounds flop around more in moon clips, making it harder to get the rounds into the holes.

The guys who shoot .38/.357 moonclip guns in ICORE typically use .38 Short Colt brass, which is shorter than .38 Spcl.

[logiztix]

The biggest complaint I hear from revolver shooters is the 165 PF for ESR. If ESR gets worked into SSR, I would hope they would also take the opportunity to address the PF complaints at the same time.

I have shot a 686 in SSR off and on for two years now in addition to my normal ESP Glock 34. I also brought a NIB S&W Governor with moon-clipped 45 ACP and a borrowed holster and moon-clip pouch to a Classifier after I had been shooting wheel guns for about a year. I managed to come within 5 seconds of my SSR Classifier time which is within a second of EX.

Unfortunately, I later discovered at the chrono that my CDP load (170 PF 45 ACP) only makes about 145 PF in a Governor because of the .410 cylinder setup. If ESR power factor were lowered to what factory 45 ACP makes in a Governor then we would have a fairly usable division for existing SSR/ESR setups and allow the most common moon-clipped revolver sold today to play. The 625 isn't the only moon-clip 45 ACP out there. It's simply the only one that can make 165 PF.

[GOF]

M1911. Yup, the 38s do flop around a bit more. But, not enough to prevent someone who practices a bit from being able to make them work. They could be more effective in SSR due to nothing more than their ejection ability. That mass will come out clean, where individual .38 cases sometimes 'do their own thing' and one will hang up every now and then, which crates a lot of finger manipulation problems (BTDT).

But, if PFs are lowered to 105 when ESR/SSR is combined... I'm going to be shooting a S&W 610... with .40 S&W cases... and a 180 grain bullet at a bit less than 625 fps. PUFFY LOAD!... and it would make a total mockery of revo competition. Or, I could go to .38 Super rimmed case (should be legal) that deals with moon clips better... and a 105 PF is easy there. But, both could become legal.

I hope if they combine the two divisions that IDPA would consider all the "unintended consequences" and keep the moonclip gun PF at no less than 150.

Edited November 4, 2014 by GOF

[Brewski]

GOF makes a good point, I hadn't even considered a moonclipped 38 as a option. That would be sick. I still don't agree that allowing moonclip guns to play at 150 PF will level the playing field.

I get the impression that moonclips don't work as well in 38 Spcl as they do in 45 ACP. 45 ACP is a short, fat rimless cartridge. The long, skinny .38 Spcl rounds flop around more in moon clips, making it harder to get the rounds into the holes.

The guys who shoot .38/.357 moonclip guns in ICORE typically use .38 Short Colt brass, which is shorter than .38 Spcl.

Exactly so – and this is a good Segway into my main point: Don’t eliminate ESR, expand it. Make it a place for the 7 and 8-shot guns to play. What about folks who have light weight (i.e. carry guns!) 44 magnums like the 329? I shot one this summer with light 44 specials and it was a hoot, but there is no way I’d consider an 80 round match at 165PF to be anything but work. I say why not actually let folks enhance their guns/ loads in ESR.

· Drop the ESR power factor for guns with a bore size over .357 to 140 so folks don’t beat the hell out of themselves and their guns.

· Drop the “only use cartridges the gun was made for “ rule and let folks run whatever they like. A 329 running moonclipped 44 Russian case would load like a champ. A 627 with 38 short Colts is a ton of fun.

· Score major/ minor like USPSA. Too much trouble you say? Who thinks we’ll be doing paper scoring three years from now? Even smaller clubs will be doing their scoring on mobile devices and wireless/ cellular. The machines can keep it straight.

Be more inclusive, not more exclusive. I’m not a business guy, but it seems to me you want more customers, not less. You’d also want them happy…right?

And as an SSR shooter, I say leave my division alone – you’ve already made enough of my gear obsolete.

[joninwv]

I still think people are trying to read into the announcement that they are "combining" ssr and esr. They aren't, they are removing ESR, with *maybe* a rule change that will allow 625/610/646/etc to still compete. I would think something more like, use your 625, but with speed loaders and 45 auto rim ammunition.

[MWP]

I think 44 mags can play in SSR right now. And I think you can use 44 special brass if I'm not mistaken. Just need speed loaders.

And you can already use your 625 with auto rim in SSR. But no one is doing that. Do they make speed loaders for either gun?

Edited November 4, 2014 by MWP

[joninwv]

Sure do...http://bobmacs.com/products/speedloaders/SLV-N-277

[MWP]

I used to use those SL Variants in a 686. Great in theory, but not practicality. Very wobbly, even worse when you start to use them. And you have to push pretty hard to get them to eject compared to safariland.

And then there's the fact that they are made overseas and are more rare than 625s themselves.

[Jim Watson]

I use SL Variants when I feel the urge to get out the Python, since there are no Comp 3 or Jetloaders for Colts.

It does take a hard push to trip six separate latches.

And, if you read the fine print at BobMac's

Note - Although we are completely out of stock on the SL Variants, we ARE working on a new shipment; we are also working on our own "improved" variation to be made in the USA. PLEASE do NOT call or email us in regard to Speed loaders, unfortunately, we can no longer reply to these messages. Any information about the Speed loaders can be found in the FAQ's section. When we have more in stock, the website will reflect the updated status.

[rowdyb]

no one came to my defense when my gun was outlawed days before nationals......

so i say let esr die, who cares about what less than 3% of the members don't like.

buy a new gun like i had to.

[MWP]

Rowdy, you weren't running one of those super secret CZs were you?

That thought had crossed my mind earlier but I didn't want to get off topic...

I don't think it's that no one came to your defense, it's that no one had time to. And the last we heard from IDPA HQ everything was "if you don't like it, too bad," I was extremely surprised to see these emails yesterday with a different version of "here's what we decided and here's what you're getting."

By the way, what's the difference between your gun and a factory gun that has custom work done on it, and not labeled from that shop?

Edited November 4, 2014 by MWP

[S-Hurt]

I still think people are trying to read into the announcement that they are "combining" ssr and esr. They aren't, they are removing ESR, with *maybe* a rule change that will allow 625/610/646/etc to still compete. I would think something more like, use your 625, but with speed loaders and 45 auto rim ammunition.

You might be right the way it reads.