Chris iliff Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I saw this in another thread and found it interesting. I have believed for awhile that Ben is our best bet in beating EG. Eric shot 424 A 70 C 7 D 1 PR 385.56 seconds Nils shot 358 A 108 C 34 D 1M 1 PE 1 PR 380.12 seconds. Ben Shot 423 A 70 C 8 D 404.51 seconds. I Think it speaks volumes about what it's gonna take, and how close Ben is. What say you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yagi Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Eric may be shooting Standard Dvision...=) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bockerSV Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I could see that, I'm pretty new to action shooting but from my understanding he was beating up on people in open division then made the jump to production to try something new. Would make sense for him to make another jump to standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRush Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Not sure where you are going with this, but IPSC Production and Standard are a lot more similar than USPSA Prod and Limited. Eric and Ben shot a lot of Alphas, no doubt, but they are shooting a gun that is fundamentally similar to a standard gun. 15 rds in the stock 2 vs 18 in standard, box, holster and mag position requirements... etc. You are obviously going to need to shoot more alphas shooting minor, but you have more recoil in major, etc. Notwithstanding the similarities, we are talking Different divisions, different field of competitors, different shooters, etc. Also, wouldn't JJ be closer than Ben? Am I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I've shot with Ben and he spends a lot of time in training shooting difficult, long shots (partials, hardcover, etc) which is something EG does as well. I think it shows in how much better their accuracy is than the other top shooters. Ben's accuracy is no different than EG's, he just needs to figure out how to shave tiny bits of time here and there. 19 secs total over what, 27 stages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrbet83 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Also, wouldn't JJ be closer than Ben? Am I missing something? Yes you are, because 4 years of dominance isn't wiped clean by one match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boudreux Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I would like to see them (Eric, Ben, JJ, etc...) shoot together in a bunch of matches over the period of a year. It would be interesting to see how they would match up over 8 or 10 matches. I think by doing this we would all be able to gauge them against one another a lot better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRush Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 My math is off. Thought second was closer to first than third is. Nobody said anything about wiping clean but how long has JJ been shooting a gun that doesn't explode? I'd say for being new to the DA/SA unicorn thing JJ has done a pretty good job. Not taking anything away from Ben at all, but JJ has covered a lot of ground in not a lot of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prov1x Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) The answer is nobody now...although the last person to beat him was Max. Then he came back to avenge that loss and won handily. He is shooting open now at the US IPSC Nationals so we'll see how that turns out. Edited October 22, 2014 by Prov1x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 It is a pretty standard belief that Eric shoots more rounds down range than probably everyone. Dry fire is excellent but actual rounds down range is what differentiates the very good from the great. He gets paid to train everyday. His training program is what makes the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRush Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 This should be taken with a (many?) grain(s) of salt, but I noticed the following in my Excel explorations: Eric had 7 stage wins JJ had 7 stage wins Ben had 5 stage wins There were 13 unique stage winners, and outside of the top 3, there was only one other shooter with more than 1 stage wins (he had 2). Overall 19/30 stage wins were obtained by the top 3. For comparison's sake, Nils won 4 stages Bob won 2 stages Dave won 2 stages There were 17 unique stage winners, and there were others (Sweeney had 3 stage wins) including a number of shooters with a pair of wins and unique wins. Overall 8/30 stage wins were obtained by the top 3. Eric is an amazing Production shooter, and clearly the best in the world right now. He is very consistent! That being said, JJ and Stoeger aren't as far off as it might seem. If Eric were to move to Standard he would have to contend with more top level shooters (not saying Ben and JJ aren't, they certainly are- but a greater number of top shooters) and likely increased pressure, but he hasn't done that yet so we can't really say. It didn't seem to bother him when he was shooting in Open, so maybe that is a key to his success- he might not be as affected by the pressure of his competition due to years of winning. Could Nils, Dave, Bob, JJ, or Stoeger beat Eric? I believe so. If training regimens, sponsorships, level of participation, etc change there certainly could be someone who is able to beat him. It is amazing how close some are, given the amount of training they are able to carry out compared to Eric. Stoeger in particular has been closing the gap compared to last year. World Shoot will always be on IPSC terms, but as some of the US shooters mentioned gain more IPSC experience that may contribute to narrowing the gap or causing the shift. When Bob beat Eric at Pro Am, people (besides blaming Bob's high tech Glock and lead filled flashlight) said that Eric wasn't used to that kind of match. IPSC has a different target, more moving targets and different presentations, and different rules that put US shooters outside of their typical environment. While I doubt we will see Eric show up to US Nationals shooting Limited, if some of the top Ltd shooters were to move to production, or Eric to standard it would likely be much closer or possibly even a different outcome. Will any of that happen? Who knows. Eric seems to be enjoying dominating Production. If I were a top limited shooter, and I certainly am not, I wouldn't bother switching divisions just to chase Eric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Coming from a different direction, I think maybe Daniel Horner. This would be with the assumption that he would have to stop 3 gun and focus on pistols though. He has time and money at his disposal (AMU). Whether or not he could beat Eric, I would like to see what he could do is he shot pistols only for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Won't happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Not sure Grauffel would do as well in Standard as he does in Open and Production. Eric uses a very different grip technique than any other shooter I've seen. It does very well with guns that have less recoil, Open and Production. Not sure it works as well with the heavier recoil in Standard. Additionally if he did shoot Standard he would likely use a Tanfoglio due to sponsor commitments. I have yet to see a Tanfoglio do really well in Standard. Not saying it can't be done, and Eric would be the guy who could likely do it, but it's another factor against him dominating Standard/Limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amish_rabbi Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Coming from a different direction, I think maybe Daniel Horner. This would be with the assumption that he would have to stop 3 gun and focus on pistols though. He has time and money at his disposal (AMU). Whether or not he could beat Eric, I would like to see what he could do is he shot pistols only for a while.IIRC eric was/is planning on shooting a bunch of 3 gun matches in the next two years. I'm not sure If he is only going to shoot them in europe or also the US though. So we might see that match up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB45 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Not sure Grauffel would do as well in Standard as he does in Open and Production. Eric uses a very different grip technique than any other shooter I've seen. It does very well with guns that have less recoil, Open and Production. Not sure it works as well with the heavier recoil in Standard. Additionally if he did shoot Standard he would likely use a Tanfoglio due to sponsor commitments. I have yet to see a Tanfoglio do really well in Standard. Not saying it can't be done, and Eric would be the guy who could likely do it, but it's another factor against him dominating Standard/Limited. By the stats, Eric have won Standard shooting at this WS shooting minor with Production gear. Why would he have to change anything to be competitive in Standard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROY NEAL Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 After spending a couple days with Eric this summer and watching him perform/teach, I think I have a pretty good idea that Eric could transition to Standard if he wanted to and continue to dominate. He is shooting so well right now that he might not even have to transition to major as he shoots so many Alpha's in such a timely fashion. Why change anything if he doesn't have to? IPSC match's are much more technical due to lower rounds counts (3,2,1 stage requirements) so Eric concentrates on doing every little thing better than most including being accurate. He really can perform on demand which is impressive to say the least. Now USPSA Limited Division would be the interesting one. With the longer mags (140 vs 126mm), it would make things more interesting and the typical track meet stages that end up at many Level III match's could level the playing field where top shooters such as Bob, Dave, Nils, Blake, Travis ect.... could outshoot Eric. I would love to shoot that match and watch it firsthand. I bet a lot of other folks would too............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Hold the world shoot near a combat zone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummm Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Remember, at the top levels in any undertaking, small increments of improvement represent a great deal of work. Going from [where America's best Prod shooters are right now] to [where Eric is right now] is years of work, and dethroning Eric assumes Eric does not continue to improve at a rate equal to or greater than anyone else... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Remember, at the top levels in any undertaking, small increments of improvement represent a great deal of work. Going from [where America's best Prod shooters are right now] to [where Eric is right now] is years of work, and dethroning Eric assumes Eric does not continue to improve at a rate equal to or greater than anyone else... ^^ THIS!!! Makes a 19 second difference in time over a 27 stage match seem even more insurmountable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 So, he is 34 years old now. In another 16 years he will be 50. IF he is like the rest of us by then he will be aging and out of shape by then with bad joints and lousy eyesight. THAT might be the time to strike! Not sure if he is a family man or not, but if he has daughters...when they become teenagers that would be another opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 So, he is 34 years old now. In another 16 years he will be 50. IF he is like the rest of us by then he will be aging and out of shape by then with bad joints and lousy eyesight. THAT might be the time to strike! Dunno about that, look at who won Classic! Not sure if he is a family man or not, but if he has daughters...when they become teenagers that would be another opportunity. This may work! I remember overhearing Jerry Miculek, after he watched Nils shoot a stage at an Area 2 a few years ago, say "we need to get that boy a wife and a mortgage..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 Remember, at the top levels in any undertaking, small increments of improvement represent a great deal of work. Going from [where America's best Prod shooters are right now] to [where Eric is right now] is years of work, and dethroning Eric assumes Eric does not continue to improve at a rate equal to or greater than anyone else... ^^ THIS!!! Makes a 19 second difference in time over a 27 stage match seem even more insurmountable. Actually, I feel the opposite is true. This is why I picked Ben as the man to dethrone the Frenchy. The accuracy is already there. Really, all Ben needs to do is make up .7 over a stage. This is an over simplification, but I believe this is where Ben excels. Breaking down his own shooting and devising the best course forward. I am not sure anyone is better at this and I base that opinion on reading his books and watching his steadfast rise in the shooting ranks. Between the shooters listed, Ben has the least number of years shooting. This hasn't been his life work so to speak. In the relatively short amount of time he has been doing this, he has figured out "how to do it" quicker than his competition figured it out. This isn't something that is learned, it is the one skill that someone will need in order to go toe to toe with EG and get wins consistently. I chose Ben because I believe he has this skill more so than the others mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Again, you are assuming Ben will improve and Eric will not. That is a false assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Actually not a false assumption, but one that isn't provable before the fact (until time tells us who's where a couple of years down the road). And BTW, why do we have to refer to Eric Grauffel as "the Frenchie"? Eric is an action shooter, just like us. So he's from France, not Dallas or Cincinnati. He's winning, and he deserves it. The fact that he's French isn't really meaningful, unless we want to play the "you aren't from here so I'm going to make myself feel better by picking at you". Just sayin' ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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