CHA-LEE Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Can a for profit range restrict participation in a sanctioned USPSA club match to only members of the for profit range? I thought that if you hosted a sanctioned USPSA match it had to be made available to anyone who is a USPSA member in good standing. I may be wrong as I really can't find wording that supports the "Anyone should be able to attend" stance in the rule book. The closest rules that I can find are rules 6.4.3 and 6.4.4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunchies95 Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 The only other thing I can find against it would be the first principle: Practical competition is open to all reputable persons without regard to occupation. It may specifically not be limited to public servants. On the other hand, I don't see it being a problem if say, a sectional championship opened up registration for section members first and the match fills up before other people can register. A club match limited to club members would just be a variant of that. If it was a case of the match always being full, then I see no problem in giving club members preference in registration. But if the match was not at capacity, not only is it not in your best financial interest to turn people away, it leaves a bad taste in peoples mouths about the way things operate. People should not be barred just because they are not a part of the "in crowd". I'd say limiting the match to club members goes against the first principle of USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Pretty sure some of the Area matches were limited to Area residents first. But I am pretty sure that the last time I heard this question, about 10 years ago, the answer from USPSA was that it was not allowed. Open to "all" means "all". But then, we have a new breed of shooters using Clintonian English these days, so nothing can ever be clear or absolute to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 From the USPSA affiliation application:"On behalf of the above named Club/Organization I/we apply to join and affiliate ourselves with the United States Practical Shooting Association. We have read and understand the bylaws, rules, and regulations of USPSA and do agree to abide by them. We understand activity reporting procedures and will follow USPSA region policy. The club agrees that all USPSA matches shall be open to any person eligible for USPSA membership or are members of other IPSC regions. We agree to hold a minimum of eight Practical Shooting contests per year under USPSA rules and regulations as specified in USPSA bylaws, and that a minimum of three of said contests will be classification contests. The club agrees to report the results of such contests to USPSA in a timely manner. Further, the club agrees to reserve the use of USPSA’s images and intellectual property for USPSA competitions, and to return to USPSA all USPSA licensed or produced manuals, rules, property, software, and merchandise upon demand from USPSA or upon failure of the club to reaffiliate with USPSA at some future date. It further understands that failure to follow the rules or procedures will result in revocation of our affiliation." http://uspsa.org/document_library/New%20Club%20Application.doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 Thanks for the quick replies and info to clarify the stance on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 My home range (or at least the only one I pay to be a member of right now) allows non-members to shoot three organized matches of any discipline (USPSA, SSC-ish, IDPA, SASS) before needing to be a member to continue shooting there. In some ways, I get it, because no club wants people who have no "skin" in the game to shoot at their facility and tear up their equipment without either working or paying to maintain it. Plus, the insurance stuff would be a nightmare to work out if there was an incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 My home range (or at least the only one I pay to be a member of right now) allows non-members to shoot three organized matches of any discipline (USPSA, SSC-ish, IDPA, SASS) before needing to be a member to continue shooting there. In some ways, I get it, because no club wants people who have no "skin" in the game to shoot at their facility and tear up their equipment without either working or paying to maintain it. Plus, the insurance stuff would be a nightmare to work out if there was an incident. If you can't get that from your match fee, you're doing it wrong. One day I will have to run for a position in USPSA so that we can make an example of clubs that are doing things like this and enforcing local rules so that we can eliminate this cancer from our ranks. This stuff should absolutely not be tolerated. If you want to put on a USPSA match, either follow our rules or no USPSA for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Thanks for the quick replies and info to clarify the stance on this My home range (or at least the only one I pay to be a member of right now) allows non-members to shoot three organized matches of any discipline (USPSA, SSC-ish, IDPA, SASS) before needing to be a member to continue shooting there. In some ways, I get it, because no club wants people who have no "skin" in the game to shoot at their facility and tear up their equipment without either working or paying to maintain it. Plus, the insurance stuff would be a nightmare to work out if there was an incident. Can you guys please PM me the information on these clubs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 It's really up to your section and area but there is nothing inherently wrong with favoring club members over non - up to a point. You can require someone to be a club member to pre-register and require non-members to walk on, or have early registration for members. You can offer a discount price to club members. Etc. But I would have to draw the line at only allowing non-members to shoot a limited number of matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarnburg Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) My home range (or at least the only one I pay to be a member of right now) allows non-members to shoot three organized matches of any discipline (USPSA, SSC-ish, IDPA, SASS) before needing to be a member to continue shooting there. In some ways, I get it, because no club wants people who have no "skin" in the game to shoot at their facility and tear up their equipment without either working or paying to maintain it. Plus, the insurance stuff would be a nightmare to work out if there was an incident. Insurance is a non-issue, any competent insurance agent will be able to help you get a liability policy with a clause that covers the club (and officers & staff) no matter if they are a member or non-member. What we do at our local matches is put a cost incentive in the match fee to join the host club. Our weekly 3 stage match is $10 for club members and $15 for non-members. Our weekend 6+ stage matches are $15 for members and $20 for non-members. We also allow first time shooters to shoot for free. We hold 50+ matches a year if you shoot 36 matches your club membership was "free". Edited October 21, 2014 by sarnburg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 My home range (or at least the only one I pay to be a member of right now) allows non-members to shoot three organized matches of any discipline (USPSA, SSC-ish, IDPA, SASS) before needing to be a member to continue shooting there. In some ways, I get it, because no club wants people who have no "skin" in the game to shoot at their facility and tear up their equipment without either working or paying to maintain it. Plus, the insurance stuff would be a nightmare to work out if there was an incident. If you can't get that from your match fee, you're doing it wrong. One day I will have to run for a position in USPSA so that we can make an example of clubs that are doing things like this and enforcing local rules so that we can eliminate this cancer from our ranks. This stuff should absolutely not be tolerated. If you want to put on a USPSA match, either follow our rules or no USPSA for you. See! And just like that I'm back to agreeing with you TDZ! I think a lot of clubs do it wrong personally. I shoot at a club that charges more than the rest of us because their club charges a $5 per shooter fee to allow the matches to happen. The club I belong to is probably the largest and most well respected in the SW Ohio area and all matches are well attended. But it is a not for profit club who lists in it's charter that we exist to promote the shooting sports. As a matter of fact my club does not allow members to hold CCW classes or any other class that charges money. Police departments try to pay to use our 600 yard range and are not allowed. When I collect money from a match I take out what I need to buy supplies with, etc and give the rest to the club. Then when I need to make major purchases the club looks at all the thousands of dollars I bring in and makes the purchase if needed. Seems to work OK. I think most of the guys who shoot around here are members of a home club probably. But we shoot at a different club every weekend and it just doesn't make sense to join every club in the area if you never go there except to shoot a match once a month. We charge the same fee per shooter, member or not. All matches are open to the public as well. Remember, it's about promoting the shooting sports! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 The 3 ranges I have shot at in my area charge non-members a higher match fee; usually $5. One range I shot at in Vermont charged $10 more to non-members. I have never heard of a X number of matches and join or else policy. Until now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 The 3 ranges I have shot at in my area charge non-members a higher match fee; usually $5. One range I shot at in Vermont charged $10 more to non-members. I have never heard of a X number of matches and join or else policy. Until now. And throw in the fact there is an 18 month waiting list to get into my club just makes it more lame to charge a non member more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 The 3 ranges I have shot at in my area charge non-members a higher match fee; usually $5. One range I shot at in Vermont charged $10 more to non-members. I have never heard of a X number of matches and join or else policy. Until now. And throw in the fact there is an 18 month waiting list to get into my club just makes it more lame to charge a non member more. None of the 3 in my area have an artificial ceiling to limit membership like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 The 3 ranges I have shot at in my area charge non-members a higher match fee; usually $5. One range I shot at in Vermont charged $10 more to non-members. I have never heard of a X number of matches and join or else policy. Until now. And throw in the fact there is an 18 month waiting list to get into my club just makes it more lame to charge a non member more. None of the 3 in my area have an artificial ceiling to limit membership like that. We are over 2100 so something had to give Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Ceilings are not artificial in many cases. I belong to 2 ranges, one capped at 700 (2-3 year wait), sitting on about 3 acres, the other uncapped at about 1600 sitting on about 3 square miles. The first, on a weekend, you have to wait a few hours or get there at O'dark thirty to get a berm, unless there is a match, then no dice at all really. The other, I have almost always had the choice of 4 or 5 berms on one of the 7 ranges, even if a match is running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) The 3 ranges I have shot at in my area charge non-members a higher match fee; usually $5. One range I shot at in Vermont charged $10 more to non-members. I have never heard of a X number of matches and join or else policy. Until now. And throw in the fact there is an 18 month waiting list to get into my club just makes it more lame to charge a non member more. None of the 3 in my area have an artificial ceiling to limit membership like that. We are over 2100 so something had to give The club I am a member of is at 3200+ and growing by ~50 every month. When annual renewal time comes around we lose ~15%. That builds up again over the year. Membership has been over 3000 for at least the past 5 years. Club rules during sanctioned matches is the MD "owns" the bays. Non match shooters must ask the MD's permission to shoot in the action area during a match. IDPA almost has an open bay. USPSA, subgun, 3-gun and SC usually have at least 1 bay available. Of course each range has different rules/boards/personalities. What works at one club won't work at another. I'd love to belong to a PISTOL club. IMO, shotgunners shit over everyone else just because there are so many of them, not because they bring any net profits in. Edited October 22, 2014 by remoandiris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 My home range (or at least the only one I pay to be a member of right now) allows non-members to shoot three organized matches of any discipline (USPSA, SSC-ish, IDPA, SASS) before needing to be a member to continue shooting there. In some ways, I get it, because no club wants people who have no "skin" in the game to shoot at their facility and tear up their equipment without either working or paying to maintain it. Plus, the insurance stuff would be a nightmare to work out if there was an incident. If you can't get that from your match fee, you're doing it wrong. One day I will have to run for a position in USPSA so that we can make an example of clubs that are doing things like this and enforcing local rules so that we can eliminate this cancer from our ranks. This stuff should absolutely not be tolerated. If you want to put on a USPSA match, either follow our rules or no USPSA for you. Sorry, I disagree. At the club where I shoot, the stages are built in common areas used by the guys who do stupid stuff like come in and shoot AKs at targets from 10 yards while emptying the magazines as fast as they can. Our membership dues pay for maintaining the areas for both IPSC/USPSA shooters AND these tactical timmies. Match fees should not have to cover that. Having said that, our USPSA match fees are $5, because our club dues cover maintenance of the bays where we shoot the matches. You're acting like USPSA matches should foot the bill for maintaining the shooting areas. That's the wrong attitude to take. Having said that, I'd be OK with charging non-members $10-$15 and remitting the excess to the club to go into a maintenance fund. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 My home range (or at least the only one I pay to be a member of right now) allows non-members to shoot three organized matches of any discipline (USPSA, SSC-ish, IDPA, SASS) before needing to be a member to continue shooting there. In some ways, I get it, because no club wants people who have no "skin" in the game to shoot at their facility and tear up their equipment without either working or paying to maintain it. Plus, the insurance stuff would be a nightmare to work out if there was an incident. Insurance is a non-issue, any competent insurance agent will be able to help you get a liability policy with a clause that covers the club (and officers & staff) no matter if they are a member or non-member. What we do at our local matches is put a cost incentive in the match fee to join the host club. Our weekly 3 stage match is $10 for club members and $15 for non-members. Our weekend 6+ stage matches are $15 for members and $20 for non-members. We also allow first time shooters to shoot for free. We hold 50+ matches a year if you shoot 36 matches your club membership was "free". And that's fine, because it works for you. Like I said, I'd be all for it. However, I know that our club's board would never go for it, because they don't like having us there in the first place. Insurance may be a non-issue, but going thru the ass pain of liability waivers and taking out extra insurance isn't worth it to the club's board, which means it IS an issue for our USPSA matches. I probably should have mentioned this earlier, but our particular club doesn't really like any competitive bodies aside from SASS and skeet-related stuff. They hold CMP matches from time to time, but I honestly think they believe most shooting should be done from a bench. They have grudgingly allowed USPSA and IDPA to hold matches because it winds up bolstering their membership. However, the board is composed primarily of guys who are retired and don't like us running around with pistols shooting at targets as fast as we can do so safely and accurately. So, it's fine for people to sit on the side and throw stones about how the USPSA guys at my club run the matches, but sometimes there are factors you should ask about BEFORE you pass judgment so quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gcountry Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 My home range (or at least the only one I pay to be a member of right now) allows non-members to shoot three organized matches of any discipline (USPSA, SSC-ish, IDPA, SASS) before needing to be a member to continue shooting there. In some ways, I get it, because no club wants people who have no "skin" in the game to shoot at their facility and tear up their equipment without either working or paying to maintain it. Plus, the insurance stuff would be a nightmare to work out if there was an incident. If you can't get that from your match fee, you're doing it wrong. One day I will have to run for a position in USPSA so that we can make an example of clubs that are doing things like this and enforcing local rules so that we can eliminate this cancer from our ranks. This stuff should absolutely not be tolerated. If you want to put on a USPSA match, either follow our rules or no USPSA for you. If you decided to do that, i have a feeling you would have a lot less local USPSA matches. My local club has a member only rule too for insurance reasons. If USPSA wanted to make an issue with, I'm sure the board would just decide to kick us all out. This is a local not for profit type place that is all member supported, so there isn't much structure in place for day use stuff. It is mostly unstaffed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 My home range (or at least the only one I pay to be a member of right now) allows non-members to shoot three organized matches of any discipline (USPSA, SSC-ish, IDPA, SASS) before needing to be a member to continue shooting there. In some ways, I get it, because no club wants people who have no "skin" in the game to shoot at their facility and tear up their equipment without either working or paying to maintain it. Plus, the insurance stuff would be a nightmare to work out if there was an incident. If you can't get that from your match fee, you're doing it wrong. One day I will have to run for a position in USPSA so that we can make an example of clubs that are doing things like this and enforcing local rules so that we can eliminate this cancer from our ranks. This stuff should absolutely not be tolerated. If you want to put on a USPSA match, either follow our rules or no USPSA for you. If you decided to do that, i have a feeling you would have a lot less local USPSA matches. My local club has a member only rule too for insurance reasons. If USPSA wanted to make an issue with, I'm sure the board would just decide to kick us all out. This is a local not for profit type place that is all member supported, so there isn't much structure in place for day use stuff. It is mostly unstaffed. Your club is actually violating the terms of the agreement for holding sanctioned matches. I hope you don't take this wrong but your club should not be hosting USPSA matches that do not allow card carrying USPSA members to shoot. I wish USPSA would call them on it. Maybe they would kick you all out but they know what they agreed to with USPSA. Are you sure they are sanctioned matches? Because if they are not sanctioned you can't call them USPSA anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gcountry Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 It is the only option in the area, so kicking us out would just remove all options for local folks to shoot USPSA. They do have a special agreement in place with the USPSA organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 They do have a special agreement in place with the USPSA organization. Hmmm.... That seems odd. I wonder how an out of towner who wants to shoot your match while on vacation is to know he is not allowed? I thought that was part of the premise of the agreement. I get guys at my matches who are in town on business on occasion. I can't imagine turning them away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I'm with Sarge on this. We are blessed in SW OH with outstanding clubs that go out of their way to have non overlapping schedules, welcome non members with a nominal additional charge, and usually don't screw non members by reserving sign up spots for members. If your club can't live with the USPSA sanctioning agreement, then it should not have signed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 And that's fine, because it works for you. Like I said, I'd be all for it. However, I know that our club's board would never go for it, because they don't like having us there in the first place. You are doing it wrong. you need to vote in a board that sucks less. A club with several USPSA shooters on the board is a beautiful thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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