Is a "Range Member Only" USPSA match legal?

[Sarge]

The last 10 months we have averaged 52 shooters at our USPSA matches and those numbers are growing. I have been shooting at this club since I started in USPSA in 2007. At that time the MO section coordinator was a member of our club and ran the matches with the help of some others. It has been this way long before I started in this game at our club. A lot of our local shooters use the club for other shooting activities. Skeet,trap,5 stand,cowboy action,rifle ranges,archery range etc. we have tried to get it changed but with the BOD and the bylaws we haven't been able to make it happen. It has been this way for maybe 15+ years. Our shooters don't seem to mind I guess because it gives them a place to practice too. Is it right? Maybe not. Is it against the USPSA affiliation agreement? I personally don't think so but I am not a lawyer. I enjoy shooting at this club and have put in a lot of time to help run USPSA matches for everyone to enjoy and have fun. So if they want to shut it down to be honest I need a break from putting on matches it's no picnic anyway.

Chances are high I will never shoot at your club because it's in MO somewhere. But what if I took a vacation and thought I would take my gear and shoot a few matches at different clubs. I should, the way I understand the sanctioning agreement, be able to shoot any sanctioned USPSA match anywhere in the country. And no I would NOT pay to join a club that is a thousand miles from me just for the privilege of shooting a match I should be entitled to shoot as a member in good standing in USPSA.

And, are you guys the only place to shoot for miles around? I have maybe 6 matches within a few hours drive of me. None of them require club membership to shoot their SANCTIONED matches. It would be crazy to expect the 50 or so of us regular local circuit shooters to join every club just to be able to shoot matches. That would be crazy expensive and highly impractical. I know for a fact if one of those six clubs were a members only club they would die as far as USPSA is concerned.

Is your club listed under the club finder feature of uspsa.org? Does it clearly say on the uspsa website that you don't allow non members to shoot? If it doesn't, it should. If it does, uspsa HQ should be inquiring why.

We get on average 55 shooters a month at my club. It is a 503 whatever club. They don't want to make money. They want to promote shooting. My match report has to show how many club members vs non club members shoot my matches. From what I understand, keeping track of those stats has something to do with maintaining 503 status? Not sure how all of that works.

I also have to compile results at the end of the season to determine club champions. These are club members only obviously and don't always finish near the top of the standings in the overall results. I think our stats are along the lines of only 25% of the shooters in my matches are club members. The majority of shooters at most all of the local matches around here are not members of the clubs they shoot at.

The wait list is 18 months to get into my club. There are no special ways to get to the front of the line here. You could shoot every rifle match, pistol match etc all year and it means nothing as far as membership in the club is concerned.

I had no idea there were clubs out there that held more or less major shooting sports events that were only available to club members.

I guess you missed the 3 guest visit rule that's in our by laws and we have out of town guests and new shooters every month.

You should also be turning in all your match money with a list of expenses and having the club write you a check. You must not have enough CPA,s in your club.

What does turning in match money have to do with the price of tea in china? I do turn in money minus expenses after every match. 3 guest passes covers three matches out of I'm guessing 8 a year or so?

[bkeeler]

The club is not owned by USPSA. Therefore I don't think USPSA can dictate what will be charged for a USPSA match.

That's not really the point or the bone of contention. The point is that USPSA can dictate terms to a private club if they want to hold sanctioned matches. Somebody at sometime in that club signed and agreed to those terms. And all they really require is that you abide by uspsa rules and get approval for any deviation. AND that you allow any uspsa member to shoot a match.

Using double speak to say you are not denying a member access is not going anywhere in my opinion. You are seriously comparing your fees to a club that charges 5 bucks more for a non club club member to shoot a match? Come on man!!

No my point is that our club is not doing anything wrong according to the affiliation agreement.

[Sarge]

The last 10 months we have averaged 52 shooters at our USPSA matches and those numbers are growing. I have been shooting at this club since I started in USPSA in 2007. At that time the MO section coordinator was a member of our club and ran the matches with the help of some others. It has been this way long before I started in this game at our club. A lot of our local shooters use the club for other shooting activities. Skeet,trap,5 stand,cowboy action,rifle ranges,archery range etc. we have tried to get it changed but with the BOD and the bylaws we haven't been able to make it happen. It has been this way for maybe 15+ years. Our shooters don't seem to mind I guess because it gives them a place to practice too. Is it right? Maybe not. Is it against the USPSA affiliation agreement? I personally don't think so but I am not a lawyer. I enjoy shooting at this club and have put in a lot of time to help run USPSA matches for everyone to enjoy and have fun. So if they want to shut it down to be honest I need a break from putting on matches it's no picnic anyway.

Chances are high I will never shoot at your club because it's in MO somewhere. But what if I took a vacation and thought I would take my gear and shoot a few matches at different clubs. I should, the way I understand the sanctioning agreement, be able to shoot any sanctioned USPSA match anywhere in the country. And no I would NOT pay to join a club that is a thousand miles from me just for the privilege of shooting a match I should be entitled to shoot as a member in good standing in USPSA.

And, are you guys the only place to shoot for miles around? I have maybe 6 matches within a few hours drive of me. None of them require club membership to shoot their SANCTIONED matches. It would be crazy to expect the 50 or so of us regular local circuit shooters to join every club just to be able to shoot matches. That would be crazy expensive and highly impractical. I know for a fact if one of those six clubs were a members only club they would die as far as USPSA is concerned.

Is your club listed under the club finder feature of uspsa.org? Does it clearly say on the uspsa website that you don't allow non members to shoot? If it doesn't, it should. If it does, uspsa HQ should be inquiring why.

We get on average 55 shooters a month at my club. It is a 503 whatever club. They don't want to make money. They want to promote shooting. My match report has to show how many club members vs non club members shoot my matches. From what I understand, keeping track of those stats has something to do with maintaining 503 status? Not sure how all of that works.

I also have to compile results at the end of the season to determine club champions. These are club members only obviously and don't always finish near the top of the standings in the overall results. I think our stats are along the lines of only 25% of the shooters in my matches are club members. The majority of shooters at most all of the local matches around here are not members of the clubs they shoot at.

The wait list is 18 months to get into my club. There are no special ways to get to the front of the line here. You could shoot every rifle match, pistol match etc all year and it means nothing as far as membership in the club is concerned.

I had no idea there were clubs out there that held more or less major shooting sports events that were only available to club members.

Sarge,

You are more than welcome to come shoot with us. You would not have to join our club to do so. Our club allows 3 visits before you actually have to become a member of the club. So you could come 3 times and only pay a $5.00 match fee.

There is another club in IL. That you do have to join but it's only $40.00 and that covers your match fee for that match.

$40 to join a club. THAT I would be all over! Ours is 200 buy in plus 95 a year and it's one of the cheaper ones locally.

[jman93]

I realize I'm late to the party but the USPSA bylaws state the following:

4.8 Club Membership:

A club membership requires that the club:

i.) consist of 10 or more individual members of the corporation at the time of application,

ii.) make formal application to the corporation,

iii.) agree to conduct the minimum number of corporation approved contests annually as established

from time-to-time by the Board of Directors under the rules and guidelines as published by the

corporation,

iv.) render the published results, together with appropriate activity fees due the corporation from

said contests, to the corporation within 30 days of match date, and

v.) pay the annual affiliation dues as established from time to time by the Board of Directors.

Affiliated Clubs are autonomous in nature and are specifically allowed to conduct club business according to their own local, State and Federal laws, club bylaws, and/or business practices. Commingling of clubs for the purpose of avoiding affiliation dues is specifically prohibited.

I see what you are referencing in the affiliation agreement, but wouldn't the USPSA bylaws be the final word? If so, I would think the section stating "Affiliated Clubs are autonomous in nature and are specifically allowed to conduct club business according to their own local, State and Federal laws, club bylaws, and/or business practices." clears up any question here. It appears that the matches in question are acceptable since the club bylaws dictate they be handled in this manner.

[racegun9]

The last 10 months we have averaged 52 shooters at our USPSA matches and those numbers are growing. I have been shooting at this club since I started in USPSA in 2007. At that time the MO section coordinator was a member of our club and ran the matches with the help of some others. It has been this way long before I started in this game at our club. A lot of our local shooters use the club for other shooting activities. Skeet,trap,5 stand,cowboy action,rifle ranges,archery range etc. we have tried to get it changed but with the BOD and the bylaws we haven't been able to make it happen. It has been this way for maybe 15+ years. Our shooters don't seem to mind I guess because it gives them a place to practice too. Is it right? Maybe not. Is it against the USPSA affiliation agreement? I personally don't think so but I am not a lawyer. I enjoy shooting at this club and have put in a lot of time to help run USPSA matches for everyone to enjoy and have fun. So if they want to shut it down to be honest I need a break from putting on matches it's no picnic anyway.

Chances are high I will never shoot at your club because it's in MO somewhere. But what if I took a vacation and thought I would take my gear and shoot a few matches at different clubs. I should, the way I understand the sanctioning agreement, be able to shoot any sanctioned USPSA match anywhere in the country. And no I would NOT pay to join a club that is a thousand miles from me just for the privilege of shooting a match I should be entitled to shoot as a member in good standing in USPSA.

And, are you guys the only place to shoot for miles around? I have maybe 6 matches within a few hours drive of me. None of them require club membership to shoot their SANCTIONED matches. It would be crazy to expect the 50 or so of us regular local circuit shooters to join every club just to be able to shoot matches. That would be crazy expensive and highly impractical. I know for a fact if one of those six clubs were a members only club they would die as far as USPSA is concerned.

Is your club listed under the club finder feature of uspsa.org? Does it clearly say on the uspsa website that you don't allow non members to shoot? If it doesn't, it should. If it does, uspsa HQ should be inquiring why.

We get on average 55 shooters a month at my club. It is a 503 whatever club. They don't want to make money. They want to promote shooting. My match report has to show how many club members vs non club members shoot my matches. From what I understand, keeping track of those stats has something to do with maintaining 503 status? Not sure how all of that works.

I also have to compile results at the end of the season to determine club champions. These are club members only obviously and don't always finish near the top of the standings in the overall results. I think our stats are along the lines of only 25% of the shooters in my matches are club members. The majority of shooters at most all of the local matches around here are not members of the clubs they shoot at.

The wait list is 18 months to get into my club. There are no special ways to get to the front of the line here. You could shoot every rifle match, pistol match etc all year and it means nothing as far as membership in the club is concerned.

I had no idea there were clubs out there that held more or less major shooting sports events that were only available to club members.

I guess you missed the 3 guest visit rule that's in our by laws and we have out of town guests and new shooters every month.

You should also be turning in all your match money with a list of expenses and having the club write you a check. You must not have enough CPA,s in your club.

What does turning in match money have to do with the price of tea in china? I do turn in money minus expenses after every match. 3 guest passes covers three matches out of I'm guessing 8 a year or so?

You were going on about how we could handle out of town and new shooters and that's how we do it.

The 3 guest visit isn't intended to get someone in every match. We usually get about 10 match's in.

The "advice" was from an early on post you said you took out match expenses and then turned in the match money,

From what I understand the irs and most CPA type people like to have all the money turned in with expense tickets and they write you a check back. Nothing to do with match membership. You typed something about. It's free advice our club learned.

[Sarge]

Not in the by laws as it turns out. Found the info here on the application for club affiliation to USPSA:

On behalf of the above named Club/Organization I/we apply to join and affiliate ourselves with the United States Practical Shooting Association. We have read and understand the bylaws, rules, and regulations of USPSA and do agree to abide by them. We understand activity reporting procedures and will follow USPSA region policy. The club agrees that all USPSA matches shall be open to any person eligible for USPSA membership or are members of other IPSC regions. We agree to hold a minimum of eight Practical Shooting contests per year under USPSA rules and regulations as specified in USPSA bylaws, and that a minimum of three of said contests will be classification contests. The club agrees to report the results of such contests to USPSA in a timely manner. Further, the club agrees to reserve the use of USPSA’s images and intellectual property for USPSA competitions, and to return to USPSA all USPSA licensed or produced manuals, rules, property, software, and merchandise upon demand from USPSA or upon failure of the club to reaffiliate with USPSA at some future date. It further understands that failure to follow the rules or procedures will result in revocation of our affiliation.

[jman93]

So the application states "We have read and understand the bylaws, rules, and regulations of USPSA and do agree to abide by them.". The bylaws state "Affiliated Clubs are autonomous in nature and are specifically allowed to conduct club business according to their own local, State and Federal laws, club bylaws, and/or business practices.". What am I missing here?

[bkeeler]

If you want more clarification contact Troy McManus. I already know the answer. Thank you.

[Sarge]

If you want more clarification contact Troy McManus. I already know the answer. Thank you.

You seem satisfied BK which means he must side with your club against the rules of club affiliation.

[bkeeler]

If you want more clarification contact Troy McManus. I already know the answer. Thank you.

You seem satisfied BK which means he must side with your club against the rules of club affiliation.

Yep. But it is not against the rules read the bylaws 4.8

[bkeeler]

Affiliated Clubs are autonomous in nature and are specifically allowed to conduct club business according to their own local, State and Federal laws, club bylaws, and/or business practices.

BOOM!

BK

Edited October 29, 2014 by bkeeler

[bkeeler]

So MarCo what do you think now? Are we still breaking the rules?

[Nik Habicht]

We charge everyone the same price, members and non-members. Just easier for me to abide by the rules I guess.

Sure, we give a discount for working (set-up, stage design, etc.)

And clubs in the Mid-Atlantic Section typically offer a discount to members of the individual home ranges.....

We also charge a surcharge for non-USPSA members.....

Then again, if someone joins USPSA at a match, that match is free for them....

[Attila]

The problem is not for the out of towners that come from 1,000 miles like Sarge. Chances are shooters in that category won't reach the three match limit. I have to drive 1 1/2 hours to get to your club. When I was shooting more, I would have driven that for matches, but couldn't justify spending the cash to join. That is too far for practice.

i think the rule sucks. I do understand your defense of it. If your BOD doesn't care what USPSA, they are fine with USPSA pulling their sanctioning of your club. That means if people raise the issue with USPSA HQ, you could lose your local match. The 50+ shooters you have then lose their local match. That doesn't matter to the people on here who are complaining, they don't shoot there. Everyone that is complaining doesn't have a local match at stake (with few other options). Everyone that has defended it are St Louis area shooters.

Unless the club BOD ever gets loaded with USPSA shooters, I don't see it changing.

[racegun9]

We have not been saying our club should be the norm or is the best setup for Uspsa match's.

We have been saying we have to work within the by laws of our club and that we are following rules.

Several of you have had us already thrown out of Uspsa and saying we are cancer.

Saying we are not following the rules and various other negative things based on your own opinions

And wrong assumptions of the rules.

We put just as much work into running good match's as the rest of you.

Our club has a good reputation even if you don't like some of what we do.

We have tried to change it to make it even better but don't have the people that want to

Hold BOD positions right now.

To repeat we have broken no rules, we are in good standing with Uspsa and will continue to have match's.

[bkeeler]

I don't like our by law of our range either and have tried to get it changed and still do.But in the end we are not breaking any rules. So we have been accused of breaking the rules,fraud,false advertising,making USPSA members break the rules and the list goes on! You got to love forums! When it comes down to it I will fight for the USPSA shooters of my club! I would hope some of you would do the same for your shooters of your club. But by the looks of it I don't think that would happen.

Edited October 29, 2014 by bkeeler

[Sarge]

I don't see where the bylaws allow you to deny Uspsa members to shoot. It says you can run your club the way you see fit and Uspsa won't take over your club. The contract you sign for affiliation gives you the requirements of holding sanctioned matches

[bkeeler]

Affiliated Clubs are autonomous in nature and are specifically allowed to conduct club business according to their own local, State and Federal laws, club bylaws, and/or business practices.

Affiliated club (USPSA) and host range. It is up to the USPSA club to operate with in the rules of the host range!

You really need to stop digging! If this gets back to other host ranges BOD's it could become the norm for Memberships required at host ranges for USPSA members/matches! You really don't want that to happen do you?

Edited October 29, 2014 by bkeeler

[The Antichrome]

Wow, its a shame that a club can be permitted to practice such elitist, exclusionary actions.

[Thomas H]

Affiliated Clubs are autonomous in nature and are specifically allowed to conduct club business according to their own local, State and Federal laws, club bylaws, and/or business practices.

Affiliated club (USPSA) and host range. It is up to the USPSA club to operate with in the rules of the host range!

And yet the affiliation agreement says:

The club agrees that all USPSA matches shall be open to any person eligible for USPSA membership or are members of other IPSC regions.

So I'm curious: Knowing that your club's bylaws will cause you to not be able to honor the affiliation agreement, why did your club sign the affiliation agreement?

Was it a "hey, we don't care" thing? Or a "we didn't notice that little important point" thing?

[bkeeler]

Affiliated Clubs are autonomous in nature and are specifically allowed to conduct club business according to their own local, State and Federal laws, club bylaws, and/or business practices.

Affiliated club (USPSA) and host range. It is up to the USPSA club to operate with in the rules of the host range!

And yet the affiliation agreement says:

The club agrees that all USPSA matches shall be open to any person eligible for USPSA membership or are members of other IPSC regions.

So I'm curious: Knowing that your club's bylaws will cause you to not be able to honor the affiliation agreement, why did your club sign the affiliation agreement?

Was it a "hey, we don't care" thing? Or a "we didn't notice that little important point" thing?

Our matches are open to any person eligible for USPSA membership or are members of other IPSC regions. We don't deny or turn away anyone that meets this requirement. it says 'OPEN" not "FREE". We don't like it either but as an Affiliated club we have to abide by our ranges rules!

In the end we are abiding by the affiliation agreement and our host range rules and by laws.USPSA has NO SAY SO over the by laws of our host range. We are in good standing with USPSA and will continue to have and publish USPSA matches.

Is it right? Maybe not. Is it legal? Absolutely! For further clarification please contact Troy. Because apparently I can't get it clear enough!

[Thomas H]

Affiliated Clubs are autonomous in nature and are specifically allowed to conduct club business according to their own local, State and Federal laws, club bylaws, and/or business practices.

Affiliated club (USPSA) and host range. It is up to the USPSA club to operate with in the rules of the host range!

And yet the affiliation agreement says:

The club agrees that all USPSA matches shall be open to any person eligible for USPSA membership or are members of other IPSC regions.

So I'm curious: Knowing that your club's bylaws will cause you to not be able to honor the affiliation agreement, why did your club sign the affiliation agreement?

Was it a "hey, we don't care" thing? Or a "we didn't notice that little important point" thing?

Our matches are open to any person eligible for USPSA membership or are members of other IPSC regions. We don't deny or turn away anyone that meets this requirement. it says 'OPEN" not "FREE". We don't like it either but as an Affiliated club we have to abide by our ranges rules!

In the end we are abiding by the affiliation agreement and our host range rules and by laws.USPSA has NO SAY SO over the by laws of our host range. We are in good standing with USPSA and will continue to have and publish USPSA matches.

Is it right? Maybe not. Is it legal? Absolutely! For further clarification please contact Troy. Because apparently I can't get it clear enough!

Truthfully, what I hear is the same sort of reasoning that was used to put $200 tax stamps on $5 mufflers.

Like I said, you do what you do, and indeed, one can argue that you are abiding by the letter of the rule. It is obviously, however, not abiding by the spirit of the affiliation agreement. I'm not arguing whether or not it is necessary to keep USPSA able to occur at your club, or anything else.

Simply put, however----you are adding additional requirements on people being able to shoot your matches when the affiliation agreement states that anyone should be able to shoot the match. And you know it.

The fact that you can argue bylaws and technicalities of wording means that you are indeed obeying the rules. Doesn't change the fact that as a USPSA life member, if I came to your range and wanted to shoot a number of matches, I would be able to do so.

[Vlad]

I'm always amused about "spirits of laws and rules". Words on a piece of paper have no soul nor spirits. If you write up a rule, always write it up as to be so clear as to not allow conversation about spirits.

I don't have a strong opinion on the subject at hand, I'm here mostly to bitch that we have a rule book that gets tweaked and prodded and massaged and given a happy ending seemingly every afternoon, but there is somehow still conversation about spirits.

If the books and bylaws don't cover a subject then there is no spirit of that subject. If the affiliation contract includes provisions not backed by the bylaws or rule book, then the contract is wrong and should be fixed. If you think the contract is right, then go fix the rules. Casper the friendly ghost should never be invoked.

[racegun9]

Affiliated Clubs are autonomous in nature and are specifically allowed to conduct club business according to their own local, State and Federal laws, club bylaws, and/or business practices.

Affiliated club (USPSA) and host range. It is up to the USPSA club to operate with in the rules of the host range!

Truthfully, what I hear is the same sort of reasoning that was used to put $200 tax stamps on $5 mufflers.

Like I said, you do what you do, and indeed, one can argue that you are abiding by the letter of the rule. It is obviously, however, not abiding by the spirit of the affiliation agreement. I'm not arguing whether or not it is necessary to keep USPSA able to occur at your club, or anything else.

Simply put, however----you are adding additional requirements on people being able to shoot your matches when the affiliation agreement states that anyone should be able to shoot the match. And you know it.

The fact that you can argue bylaws and technicalities of wording means that you are indeed obeying the rules. Doesn't change the fact that as a USPSA life member, if I came to your range and wanted to shoot a number of matches, I would be able to do so.

So answer if it's ok for clubs to charge 5 or 10 dollars more per match for non members.

[bkeeler]

Affiliated Clubs are autonomous in nature and are specifically allowed to conduct club business according to their own local, State and Federal laws, club bylaws, and/or business practices.

Affiliated club (USPSA) and host range. It is up to the USPSA club to operate with in the rules of the host range!

And yet the affiliation agreement says:

The club agrees that all USPSA matches shall be open to any person eligible for USPSA membership or are members of other IPSC regions.

So I'm curious: Knowing that your club's bylaws will cause you to not be able to honor the affiliation agreement, why did your club sign the affiliation agreement?

Was it a "hey, we don't care" thing? Or a "we didn't notice that little important point" thing?

Our matches are open to any person eligible for USPSA membership or are members of other IPSC regions. We don't deny or turn away anyone that meets this requirement. it says 'OPEN" not "FREE". We don't like it either but as an Affiliated club we have to abide by our ranges rules!

In the end we are abiding by the affiliation agreement and our host range rules and by laws.USPSA has NO SAY SO over the by laws of our host range. We are in good standing with USPSA and will continue to have and publish USPSA matches.

Is it right? Maybe not. Is it legal? Absolutely! For further clarification please contact Troy. Because apparently I can't get it clear enough!

Truthfully, what I hear is the same sort of reasoning that was used to put $200 tax stamps on $5 mufflers.

Like I said, you do what you do, and indeed, one can argue that you are abiding by the letter of the rule. It is obviously, however, not abiding by the spirit of the affiliation agreement. WHY NOT? I'm not arguing whether or not it is necessary to keep USPSA able to occur at your club, or anything else.

Simply put, however----you are adding additional requirements on people being able to shoot your matches when the affiliation agreement states that anyone should be able to shoot the match.AND THEY CAN! And you know it.

The fact that you can argue bylaws and technicalities of wording means that you are indeed obeying the rules. Doesn't change the fact that as a USPSA life member, if I came to your range and wanted to shoot a number of matches, I would be able to do so. You absolutely can!

If a host range or local/federal law has a restriction on mag capacity (10 rounds) and you want to shoot OPEN and your mag holds 30 rounds can you use it? According to USPSA rules yes, but according to the law and the range rule you can't!

Edited October 29, 2014 by bkeeler