b1gcountry Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I think frag and i are in the same club. We have 1700 members. We normally have 50 shooters a month at our matches. I'm sure every one of those shooters would be on board with that, but we are a huge minority, and have been trying to change things for twenty years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I think frag and i are in the same club. We have 1700 members. We normally have 50 shooters a month at our matches. I'm sure every one of those shooters would be on board with that, but we are a huge minority, and have been trying to change things for twenty years. I know Sarge's club well. I used to be a member there. I know that club's membership is even bigger than yours and the USPSA monthly match averages the same or slightly less people than yours. In addition, the club hosts quite a few other pistol and rifle disciplines (NRA HP rifle, NRA bullseye pistol, SASS) as well as other more casual matches and the general pistol and rifle plinkers. Despite alll that, practical pistol there is not some bastard child. Like motosapiens told you, the secret is having both someone on the board and paying the financial freight. Sarge's club also does not have any shotgun/clay shooting sports, which IMO is incompatible with rifle and pistol from a cultural point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 And that's fine, because it works for you. Like I said, I'd be all for it. However, I know that our club's board would never go for it, because they don't like having us there in the first place. You are doing it wrong. you need to vote in a board that sucks less. A club with several USPSA shooters on the board is a beautiful thing. Good luck with that. Tried it one year. Failed. Tried it the next year. Failed. Tried it the year after that. Failed. Unless you have USPSA members at new club member orientation, the vast majority of members will know little to nothing of competition shooting. Since only a handful of USPSA members actually give a damn about club operations, it is a fools errand. So just keep your head down, your mouth shut, and run the matches within the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 And that's fine, because it works for you. Like I said, I'd be all for it. However, I know that our club's board would never go for it, because they don't like having us there in the first place. You are doing it wrong. you need to vote in a board that sucks less. A club with several USPSA shooters on the board is a beautiful thing. Good luck with that. Tried it one year. Failed. Tried it the next year. Failed. Tried it the year after that. Failed. Unless you have USPSA members at new club member orientation, the vast majority of members will know little to nothing of competition shooting. Since only a handful of USPSA members actually give a damn about club operations, it is a fools errand. So just keep your head down, your mouth shut, and run the matches within the rules. Don't agree. If you push the envelope and put in the time and effort, a BOD can be changed. Both in knowledge and actual members if need be. Ignore it, and lose action/timer based sports altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 My home range (or at least the only one I pay to be a member of right now) allows non-members to shoot three organized matches of any discipline (USPSA, SSC-ish, IDPA, SASS) before needing to be a member to continue shooting there. In some ways, I get it, because no club wants people who have no "skin" in the game to shoot at their facility and tear up their equipment without either working or paying to maintain it. Plus, the insurance stuff would be a nightmare to work out if there was an incident. That's super, but I've shot local matches this year at like 7 different clubs, no way I'm paying hundreds of dollars to join them just to shoot USPSA there since all but one are too far to travel to to ever practice at. I'm a member at one club, who happens to run USPSA (although the programs are unrelated) My match fee covers my wear and tear on the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 And that's fine, because it works for you. Like I said, I'd be all for it. However, I know that our club's board would never go for it, because they don't like having us there in the first place. You are doing it wrong. you need to vote in a board that sucks less. A club with several USPSA shooters on the board is a beautiful thing. Good luck with that. Tried it one year. Failed. Tried it the next year. Failed. Tried it the year after that. Failed. Unless you have USPSA members at new club member orientation, the vast majority of members will know little to nothing of competition shooting. Since only a handful of USPSA members actually give a damn about club operations, it is a fools errand. So just keep your head down, your mouth shut, and run the matches within the rules. Don't agree. If you push the envelope and put in the time and effort, a BOD can be changed. Both in knowledge and actual members if need be. Ignore it, and lose action/timer based sports altogether. Disagree all you want. Didn't work for us 3 straight years. Now we leave them alone and they leave us alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Well, I'm glad everyone is an expert on the internal dynamics of my club. It's amazing how well you guys all know exactly what to do and how to get it done. In other news, this forum needs an approved sarcasm font. Look, I get what all of you are saying, but you saying it doesn't change the cold, hard fact that no one on the club's leadership board is interested in what the 60-80 people who shoot USPSA matches thinks. Of all of the people who shoot our matches, I think there might be three guys who are retired from regular jobs and would have the energy to actually do the work necessary to get themselves voted onto the board--and one of those guys is a state USPSA coordinator. The rest of the members have day jobs and most of them have families. I've tried to engage the board's membership to get them to attempt to address the concerns I've heard from multiple club members, and they completely ignored me. I mean refused to give a response at all. The club's members' meetings are on a weeknight a good distance away from the club and at an inconvenient time. For many of us, it requires a 40-60 minute drive, two hours of meeting where we have no input into the agenda, meaningless votes because the board members have proxy votes from a majority of the club's membership who don't shoot USPSA matches (and they refuse to let us know if we can sign proxy votes to our match director so he can vote in our interests), then another 40-60 minute drive. Yeah, I'm whining and venting at the same time, but you guys are offering pie-in-the-sky stuff that worked for you guys and won't work in our situation. That's the end of my input into this conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gcountry Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Yeah, our exec board has 649 proxy votes in their pocket to do with as they please on any vote-able issue, so with a membership of around 1500, and a monthly meeting that draws around 40 members... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parallax3D Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 (edited) I think frag and i are in the same club. We have 1700 members. We normally have 50 shooters a month at our matches. I'm sure every one of those shooters would be on board with that, but we are a huge minority, and have been trying to change things for twenty years. Frag, (Kent), and I ARE members of the same club, and it is not a for-profit club, they are a 501c3. Also, judging by their club number in USPSA, they are probably the oldest affiliated club in our state. The requirement may not have been in effect when they first became affiliated, so maybe they're grandfathered. Trust me, we would like to change the bylaws so that any USPSA or IDPA shooter could shoot regular club matches, but the USPSA and IDPA shooters are simply outnumbered by the "old farts" who see the range as more of a social club and place to hide from their wives, than a shooting range. They don't even like having action pistol sports at the range to begin with. Our next club meeting is Nov.13th, and I could bring the issue up, but I'm afraid that they would simply vote to drop the USPSA affiliation instead of allowing non-club members to shoot our matches. Yeah, our exec board has 649 proxy votes in their pocket to do with as they please on any vote-able issue, so with a membership of around 1500, and a monthly meeting that draws around 40 members... And most of those 40 members that actually show up for the meetings are the same "old farts" who think the range is a social club and a place to hide from their wives. People who actully have JOBS or KIDS can't always make a Thursday night meeting at 7:30 pm. Edited October 23, 2014 by Parallax3D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attila Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I have shot at that club once. It is too far for me to justify joining the club, but still one of the closer places that hold matches. I would have shot there more frequently, even if they charged more for non-members. I have asked members there about this and I have always been told they are trying to get it changed, but the board doesn't care about USPSA. Another option would be a limited membership. One priced significantly less, and restricts the number of times you can come when it isn't a match. Has anything like this ever been proposed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gcountry Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 They just adopted a $50/yr family membership for anyone who lives under the same roof, so I think that helps for all the father/son combos that shoot the matches. They also have leo memberships. Neither require work hours. The way I look at it is that with a $5 match fee, or $1 sc fee, I make my dues back if I attend 8 matches a year. Most of the guys I've meet are not bad guys, they just like to gab, and once you let them tell you a story our two, they treat you with respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarnburg Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 My home range (or at least the only one I pay to be a member of right now) allows non-members to shoot three organized matches of any discipline (USPSA, SSC-ish, IDPA, SASS) before needing to be a member to continue shooting there. In some ways, I get it, because no club wants people who have no "skin" in the game to shoot at their facility and tear up their equipment without either working or paying to maintain it. Plus, the insurance stuff would be a nightmare to work out if there was an incident. Insurance is a non-issue, any competent insurance agent will be able to help you get a liability policy with a clause that covers the club (and officers & staff) no matter if they are a member or non-member. What we do at our local matches is put a cost incentive in the match fee to join the host club. Our weekly 3 stage match is $10 for club members and $15 for non-members. Our weekend 6+ stage matches are $15 for members and $20 for non-members. We also allow first time shooters to shoot for free. We hold 50+ matches a year if you shoot 36 matches your club membership was "free". And that's fine, because it works for you. Like I said, I'd be all for it. However, I know that our club's board would never go for it, because they don't like having us there in the first place. Insurance may be a non-issue, but going thru the ass pain of liability waivers and taking out extra insurance isn't worth it to the club's board, which means it IS an issue for our USPSA matches. I probably should have mentioned this earlier, but our particular club doesn't really like any competitive bodies aside from SASS and skeet-related stuff. They hold CMP matches from time to time, but I honestly think they believe most shooting should be done from a bench. They have grudgingly allowed USPSA and IDPA to hold matches because it winds up bolstering their membership. However, the board is composed primarily of guys who are retired and don't like us running around with pistols shooting at targets as fast as we can do so safely and accurately. So, it's fine for people to sit on the side and throw stones about how the USPSA guys at my club run the matches, but sometimes there are factors you should ask about BEFORE you pass judgment so quickly. Our club started out with a less that enthusiastic(or supportive) board. So I understand where you are coming from. What we ended up doing is reaching out to the membership and doing some old fashioned networking, Now a few elections later things have changed, including most of the elected board, and competitive shooting is a big focus. If your matches are driving membership leverage those new members into votes and work to change the club leadership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gcountry Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 (edited) I am willing to try getting more involved in the club, I just don't move as fast as i used to with two little ones at home. It also doesn't help that my wife works the night of the club meeting. I am Mr mom. Edited October 25, 2014 by b1gcountry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) There are 4 clubs that I attend in my area that hold USPSA matches. 2 of them do not require you to be a member of that club to shoot the matches and 2 of them do require you to be a member. Unfortunately 1 of those clubs is probably not going hold USPSA matches anymore. I am a member of both the clubs that require you to be a member. With out these 2 clubs there wouldn't be any USPSA matches reasonably close to shoot local matches. (1.5 hour drive) So I think USPSA would be hurting themselves........lose members and club affiliations. Edited October 27, 2014 by bkeeler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) My home range (or at least the only one I pay to be a member of right now) allows non-members to shoot three organized matches of any discipline (USPSA, SSC-ish, IDPA, SASS) before needing to be a member to continue shooting there. In some ways, I get it, because no club wants people who have no "skin" in the game to shoot at their facility and tear up their equipment without either working or paying to maintain it. Plus, the insurance stuff would be a nightmare to work out if there was an incident. If you can't get that from your match fee, you're doing it wrong. One day I will have to run for a position in USPSA so that we can make an example of clubs that are doing things like this and enforcing local rules so that we can eliminate this cancer from our ranks. This stuff should absolutely not be tolerated. If you want to put on a USPSA match, either follow our rules or no USPSA for you. If you decided to do that, i have a feeling you would have a lot less local USPSA matches. My local club has a member only rule too for insurance reasons. If USPSA wanted to make an issue with, I'm sure the board would just decide to kick us all out. This is a local not for profit type place that is all member supported, so there isn't much structure in place for day use stuff. It is mostly unstaffed. Your club is actually violating the terms of the agreement for holding sanctioned matches. I hope you don't take this wrong but your club should not be hosting USPSA matches that do not allow card carrying USPSA members to shoot. I wish USPSA would call them on it. Maybe they would kick you all out but they know what they agreed to with USPSA. Are you sure they are sanctioned matches? Because if they are not sanctioned you can't call them USPSA anything. Yes they are sanctioned matches. Classifiers are sent in. We have been running USPSA matches for what 15+yrs??? We allow non-members to shoot 3 times then they have to become a member. If they want to stop our sanctioning then so be it. We will continue to have matches we just wont be sending any classifiers or $$ to USPSA and they wont be called USPSA matches. They would also loose USPSA members from our club. Why be a member of USPSA if we are not sending in classifiers? Which most of our shooters are members of USPSA some have recently signed up too. They would only be shooting themselves in the foot so to speak. As I mentioned before there are more clubs that do this than you are aware of. Edited October 27, 2014 by bkeeler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExtremeShot Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 If they want to stop our sanctioning then so be it. We will continue to have matches we just wont be sending any classifiers or $$ to USPSA and they wont be called USPSA matches. LOL. Does that mean the match fee will go down to $2.00? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 If they want to stop our sanctioning then so be it. We will continue to have matches we just wont be sending any classifiers or $$ to USPSA and they wont be called USPSA matches. LOL. Does that mean the match fee will go down to $2.00? No, I need lunch money! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) ....or our club could charge non-members of our club $150.00 to shoot the USPSA match. We have tried for years to open up ALL of our matches not just USPSA the BOD will not do it,because of issues in the past with our non for profit status. Edited October 27, 2014 by bkeeler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 We have tried for years to open up ALL of our matches not just USPSA the BOD will not do it,because of issues in the past with our non for profit status. I don't understand that. My club is a 501C3 and we have non-members all the time for all different kinds of matches. Most matches charge non-members more $$ than members. I think your BOD doesn't understand what 501C3 means. Heck, our range even sells targets to shooters outside of matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 I just think it is sad that people run, and advertise USPSA matches and then try to rationalize and defend the fact that they don't follow the USPSA rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racegun9 Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 There are also things called by-laws that vary greatly from club to club. Its not always so simple to get them changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 I just think it is sad that people run, and advertise USPSA matches and then try to rationalize and defend the fact that they don't follow the USPSA rules. What rule are we breaking if we charge a non club member that wants to shoot a USPSA match at our club and he is charged $250.00 for the match which also gets him a membership to the club? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 With rationalization like that, I'm starting to lean toward Sarge's position on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 I did not make the by-laws of our club. I wish it wasn't that way. So I guess we won't renew our USPSA sanctioning. Which I really don't have anything to do with. But sounds like it is heading in that direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I would hate to see this happen we have a lot of USPSA members that shoot the matches. If these two clubs stop having USPSA matches it would pretty much destroy USPSA in this area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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