racegun9 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Playing devils advocate for a bit: What rule would these clubs be breaking? "matches shall be open to any person eligible for Uspsa membership"? As far as I know they are open to any Uspsa member if you pay the correct match and or range fee's. I haven't seen any USPSA rules establishing fee's. In a perfect would it would be great if anyone could go anywhere and pay $10 bucks. The world isn't perfect. If the match fee is $250 to go to the nationals can I come and play if I only think its worth $50. If your local match fee was $20 could I come and say your only worth $5. No one is being excluded but they may not like (or can afford) the price to play sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I just think it is sad that people run, and advertise USPSA matches and then try to rationalize and defend the fact that they don't follow the USPSA rules. What rule are we breaking if we charge a non club member that wants to shoot a USPSA match at our club and he is charged $250.00 for the match which also gets him a membership to the club? That could be interesting and legal...... Match Fee -- members $20 Match Fee non-members: $100 -- bonus included: Range membership, so your subsequent matches for the year will cost $20..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I just think it is sad that people run, and advertise USPSA matches and then try to rationalize and defend the fact that they don't follow the USPSA rules. What rule are we breaking if we charge a non club member that wants to shoot a USPSA match at our club and he is charged $250.00 for the match which also gets him a membership to the club? That could be interesting and legal...... Match Fee -- members $20 Match Fee non-members: $100 -- bonus included: Range membership, so your subsequent matches for the year will cost $20..... What if a club membership base is already full? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racegun9 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 How can matches limit the number of competitor's and still follow the rule: "matches shall be open to any person eligible for uspsa membership" I think its sad and they should be kicked out of USPSA as MarcCo would put it. They should be made an example of. Bye Bye Rio Salado It's not always so black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gcountry Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I just say, if we're going to revoke the status, lets do it now so nobody sees my classifier score from yesterday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I just think it is sad that people run, and advertise USPSA matches and then try to rationalize and defend the fact that they don't follow the USPSA rules. What rule are we breaking if we charge a non club member that wants to shoot a USPSA match at our club and he is charged $250.00 for the match which also gets him a membership to the club? That could be interesting and legal...... Match Fee -- members $20 Match Fee non-members: $100 -- bonus included: Range membership, so your subsequent matches for the year will cost $20..... What if a club membership base is already full? I guess you would get put on a wait list. Just like some USPSA matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 If they want to stop our sanctioning then so be it. We will continue to have matches we just wont be sending any classifiers or $$ to USPSA and they wont be called USPSA matches. LOL. Does that mean the match fee will go down to $2.00? No, I need lunch money! Why? I'm just going to take it from you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 How can matches limit the number of competitor's and still follow the rule: "matches shall be open to any person eligible for uspsa membership" I think its sad and they should be kicked out of USPSA as MarcCo would put it. They should be made an example of. Bye Bye Rio Salado It's not always so black and white. I did not say they should be kicked out. That is not my place. But the rules should be followed, or clubs should not advertise that they run USPSA matches, with this topic or any other where they don't follow the rules. No examples except to follow the rules. I've shot many matches at Rio Salado, don't have a membership there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 How can matches limit the number of competitor's and still follow the rule: "matches shall be open to any person eligible for uspsa membership" I think its sad and they should be kicked out of USPSA as MarcCo would put it. They should be made an example of. Bye Bye Rio Salado It's not always so black and white. I did not say they should be kicked out. That is not my place. But the rules should be followed, or clubs should not advertise that they run USPSA matches, with this topic or any other where they don't follow the rules. No examples except to follow the rules. I've shot many matches at Rio Salado, don't have a membership there. What rule is not being followed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racegun9 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 How can matches limit the number of competitor's and still follow the rule: "matches shall be open to any person eligible for uspsa membership" I think its sad and they should be kicked out of USPSA as MarcCo would put it. They should be made an example of. Bye Bye Rio Salado It's not always so black and white. I did not say they should be kicked out. That is not my place. But the rules should be followed, or clubs should not advertise that they run USPSA matches, with this topic or any other where they don't follow the rules. No examples except to follow the rules. I've shot many matches at Rio Salado, don't have a membership there. I haven't been allowed to shoot Area 2 and I'm a Uspsa member? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Not going to play your game of Clintonian English BK. If you require people to join your club to shoot a USPSA match, you are not following the rules and agreements that were agreed to when the club was started. You don't follow the rules, you are not supposed to advertise as a USPSA club. You can abide by the rules, or not, that is a choice you and your club must make. If you don't like the rule and want to maintain the integrity that comes with doing it the right way, ask for an exemption from Strader or get your AD to make a motion to change the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 How can matches limit the number of competitor's and still follow the rule: "matches shall be open to any person eligible for uspsa membership" I think its sad and they should be kicked out of USPSA as MarcCo would put it. They should be made an example of. Bye Bye Rio Salado It's not always so black and white. I did not say they should be kicked out. That is not my place. But the rules should be followed, or clubs should not advertise that they run USPSA matches, with this topic or any other where they don't follow the rules. No examples except to follow the rules. I've shot many matches at Rio Salado, don't have a membership there. I haven't been allowed to shoot Area 2 and I'm a Uspsa member?Have you registered in time before it sold out and received a slot and showed up and been turned away because you are not a member there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) Not going to play your game of Clintonian English BK. If you require people to join your club to shoot a USPSA match, you are not following the rules and agreements that were agreed to when the club was started. You don't follow the rules, you are not supposed to advertise as a USPSA club. You can abide by the rules, or not, that is a choice you and your club must make. If you don't like the rule and want to maintain the integrity that comes with doing it the right way, ask for an exemption from Strader or get your AD to make a motion to change the rule. Our club is a members only club.Non-members can visit the club 3 times after that they must join the club. I guess I will bring this up at our next club meeting see what happens. In the end the match fee for a non-member will end up paying $250.00 to shoot the USPSA match and will get a free membership to the club. All within the rules and agreements of USPSA. "The right way". That way we don't have to get an exemption or get the rule changed. Edited October 28, 2014 by bkeeler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parallax3D Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Well, even PASA Park does not allow non-members to shoot local club matches. Then again, the membership fee for PASA is only $40, (increased from $25, 2 years ago.) If you come in and are not a member, you pay the $40 to shoot the match, and get PASA membership with it. The problem is when the club has a $275 annual membership,(remember Bruce, they just increased it this year.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racegun9 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 How can matches limit the number of competitor's and still follow the rule: "matches shall be open to any person eligible for uspsa membership" I think its sad and they should be kicked out of USPSA as MarcCo would put it. They should be made an example of. Bye Bye Rio Salado It's not always so black and white. I did not say they should be kicked out. That is not my place. But the rules should be followed, or clubs should not advertise that they run USPSA matches, with this topic or any other where they don't follow the rules. No examples except to follow the rules. I've shot many matches at Rio Salado, don't have a membership there. I haven't been allowed to shoot Area 2 and I'm a Uspsa member?Have you registered in time before it sold out and received a slot and showed up and been turned away because you are not a member there?I have been able to get a slot and sometimes not. I doubt I was the first one in line with the app. Sent next day air any of times.I usually don't travel to a match if I don't have a slot. I understand the reason for slots. But I don't see how if follows the "open to all members" rule that some think are so black and white. I also think more and more local clubs will end up with slots. Only so many bays and time to invest at a local level too. I know our club is reaching that point and how will this fit the rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Our club is a members only club.Non-members can visit the club 3 times after that they must join the club. That dog won't hunt. Every club I shoot at around here IS a members' only club. Yet at every single one I can shoot a USPSA match without having to be raped for a "membership" fee. I just can't help myself to the club's facilities after the match is over. Your BoD acts as if they were being asked to open your club 24/7 to the general public. Truthfully, I'd switch sports before putting up with bullshit like that if I had no other option to shoot UPSPA in the local area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExtremeShot Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Truthfully, I'd switch sports before putting up with bullshit like that if I had no other option to shoot UPSPA in the local area. Good for you. But some of us take our USPSA sport seriously and do what we have to do to shoot matches...including paying for a club membership that we prefer to not pay. That is the price to have a USPSA match at this particular club. In the mean time we USPSA shooters continue to fight the fight. The only thing you out of town do-gooders are going to get accomplished is messing up the most serious USPSA club in the St. Louis area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racegun9 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Our club is a members only club.Non-members can visit the club 3 times after that they must join the club.That dog won't hunt.Every club I shoot at around here IS a members' only club. Yet at every single one I can shoot a USPSA match without having to be raped for a "membership" fee. I just can't help myself to the club's facilities after the match is over. Your BoD acts as if they were being asked to open your club 24/7 to the general public. Truthfully, I'd switch sports before putting up with bullshit like that if I had no other option to shoot UPSPA in the local area. Do any of them have a bylaw in the club charter that non-members can only visit 3 times? Do you know of any clubs having $5 ipsc match's and $1.00 steel match's to try to offset the costs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) Our club is a members only club.Non-members can visit the club 3 times after that they must join the club. That dog won't hunt. Every club I shoot at around here IS a members' only club. Yet at every single one I can shoot a USPSA match without having to be raped for a "membership" fee. I just can't help myself to the club's facilities after the match is over. Your BoD acts as if they were being asked to open your club 24/7 to the general public. Truthfully, I'd switch sports before putting up with bullshit like that if I had no other option to shoot UPSPA in the local area. never mind............ Edited October 28, 2014 by bkeeler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Antichrome Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Not going to play your game of Clintonian English BK. If you require people to join your club to shoot a USPSA match, you are not following the rules and agreements that were agreed to when the club was started. You don't follow the rules, you are not supposed to advertise as a USPSA club. You can abide by the rules, or not, that is a choice you and your club must make. If you don't like the rule and want to maintain the integrity that comes with doing it the right way, ask for an exemption from Strader or get your AD to make a motion to change the rule. Our club is a members only club.Non-members can visit the club 3 times after that they must join the club. I guess I will bring this up at our next club meeting see what happens. In the end the match fee for a non-member will end up paying $250.00 to shoot the USPSA match and will get a free membership to the club. All within the rules and agreements of USPSA. "The right way". That way we don't have to get an exemption or get the rule changed. Truthfully, I'd switch sports before putting up with bullshit like that if I had no other option to shoot UPSPA in the local area. Good for you. But some of us take our USPSA sport seriously and do what we have to do to shoot matches...including paying for a club membership that we prefer to not pay. That is the price to have a USPSA match at this particular club. In the mean time we USPSA shooters continue to fight the fight. The only thing you out of town do-gooders are going to get accomplished is messing up the most serious USPSA club in the St. Louis area. If the club doesnt follow the USPSA rules, then its not a USPSA match. Its false advertising. Representing themselves as a USPSA club, but not following the rules, is fraud. Requiring shooters to break USPSA rules and join a club is extortion. Any shooter who condones these practices is part of the problem. The Section Coordinator and Area Director should address this immediately, or be removed from office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Not going to play your game of Clintonian English BK. If you require people to join your club to shoot a USPSA match, you are not following the rules and agreements that were agreed to when the club was started. You don't follow the rules, you are not supposed to advertise as a USPSA club. You can abide by the rules, or not, that is a choice you and your club must make. If you don't like the rule and want to maintain the integrity that comes with doing it the right way, ask for an exemption from Strader or get your AD to make a motion to change the rule. Our club is a members only club.Non-members can visit the club 3 times after that they must join the club. I guess I will bring this up at our next club meeting see what happens. In the end the match fee for a non-member will end up paying $250.00 to shoot the USPSA match and will get a free membership to the club. All within the rules and agreements of USPSA. "The right way". That way we don't have to get an exemption or get the rule changed. Truthfully, I'd switch sports before putting up with bullshit like that if I had no other option to shoot UPSPA in the local area. Good for you. But some of us take our USPSA sport seriously and do what we have to do to shoot matches...including paying for a club membership that we prefer to not pay. That is the price to have a USPSA match at this particular club. In the mean time we USPSA shooters continue to fight the fight. The only thing you out of town do-gooders are going to get accomplished is messing up the most serious USPSA club in the St. Louis area. If the club doesnt follow the USPSA rules, then its not a USPSA match. Its false advertising. Representing themselves as a USPSA club, but not following the rules, is fraud. Requiring shooters to break USPSA rules and join a club is extortion. Any shooter who condones these practices is part of the problem. The Section Coordinator and Area Director should address this immediately, or be removed from office. Get it done then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racegun9 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 So some clubs can charge non-members a smaller amount every time they come to a match And they are good to go with the rules, but if you charge non-members a one time larger fee That is very bad and against the rules? Just trying to figure who we need to throw out of Uspsa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 We charge everyone the same price, members and non-members. Just easier for me to abide by the rules I guess. Sure, we give a discount for working (set-up, stage design, etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Do you all check weight of singlestack guns,production guns, mag lengths, check distance of gun and mags from the inner belt? If not your not following the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Do you all check weight of singlestack guns,production guns, mag lengths, check distance of gun and mags from the inner belt? If not your not following the rules. Grasping for straws again? Care to site the "rule". It says "should" not must, but no matter, I check anyway when I am the RM and I frequently make people move gear. I made 2 shooters get new holsters the last match I was the RM. But that is a weak strawman argument at best. I will tell you what I tell my kids...just because someone else does something wrong has no bearing on your integrity and does not give you a pass to do something wrong. The American way has become...do what you want and blame someone else or use their actions in attempt to justify your wrong. Sorry, that argument will never work with me, but you will fit right in at most public schools. Your stance is clear, so is mine. Since you refuse potential solutions, I will cease the dialog with you on this topic. I hope you have a great day and I wish your club luck in future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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