Does 3 gun need a governing body?

[alma]

One more thought. Has anyone done a side by side comparison to map out commonalities and identify differences between the various 3 Gun rule sets?

Jason Tielke did one a few years ago. See if this link still works: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AllOHAfJZi57dG9qUU5WTjBXR0hoYnhnVkxiLTJoZEE&usp=sharing

The link works but the document is not being shared publicly.

[davehorn]

Ken, of the rules you have listed, two aren't worth a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin getting it on.

I don't know about rules, but I want that painting!

[LoganbillJ]

What barriers are you seeing that prevents someone from entering? The ability to read the rules for said match? Its easy, read rules, understand rules, attend match. No one should get a surprise when they get to a match because they thought 1x optics were allowed in Irons.

I don't really see how you can make it easier for someone to play. I shot my first 3 gun match with pump shotgun with a 5 rd tube, Taurus 9mm pistol, and an AK47. I had a blast and have been shooting ever since. Yes, I upgraded my equipment very quickly after, but I shot with what I had available.

MD's cannot build better competitors. They only enable them the opportunity to become better competitors. It is up to the shooter to make that decision and put in the effort.

In your earlier post you stated you want standardized weapon abandonment. In your last, you say it is ok to be creative or use a trash can for a dump bucket. So which do you want?

I also see in your sig line "Skill > Gear" which pretty much sums everything up to me. Different rule sets regulating gear should have no affect on performance, correct?

[Brian Payne]

Standardizing things forces people to change from what they want to do, to meet what you think they should do. Here is a better idea. Read the rules of the match you have chosen, if you don't like how they do things, DO NOT GO! That way everyone can be happy. I can't rap my brain around people having a hard time understanding this, or this need to change something that is already working, to something that they think should be done. Here is another idea, start your own match and see how it goes. Once you do that you might be surprised at how that can open your mind to new things and may offer an opportunity to see why some match directors do things the way that they do.

As far as equipment rules, if you can't read the rules and figure out what should be used, just keep it simple. Tac Iron = AR-15 with iron sights, 12 ga shotgun with 8 round tube, chosen handgun 9mm or larger. Heavy Metal = .308 battle rifle, 12 ga. pump shotgun with 8 round tube, 1911 .45 with 10 round mags. You will be good to go in any match in the country. Heavy Metal Optic = use the same as Heavy Metal only put a scope on your rifle. Some matches allow for semi-auto shotgun and smaller caliber handgun but we are just shooting for fun right? What you have will work.

The nice thing about 3-gun is that most matches only have a rule book that is a few pages long. It doesn't take too long to read it and make sure that the match you have chosen has rules that you can live with.

[Benelli Chick]

I was just using your words. But, what I was trying to explain, is that this thing called 3-Gun that You SEE, is only as much fun as it is BECAUSE people have had a chance to change things without a "Governing Body" Bureaucracy is not something I want to see, and as soon as you get a "Governing Body", bureaucracy follows.

Example 3 - Mr Miller, Trapr and Mike P tried to grow limited division by allowing 1x/red dots...just a little while before you started 3-Gun. They said it worked, other bigger matches tried it. Now, you see this as typical 3-Gun. It was anything but before. It was a crazy idea some rednecks (I say that in jest, they run Redneck Tactical!) came up with that is now pretty well accepted across the board.

What I'm trying to say is that 3-Gun is the rapidly growing, exciting, dynamic sport that it is BECAUSE of the lack of a governing body!

2003 - 3 national level 3-Gun matches. 2008 or so - almost 10 national 3-Gun matches and that was before 3-Gun nation threw their hat in the ring.

Practiscore - wouldn't exist were it not for outlaw matches and different scoring. "Governing bodies" in shooting tell you how to score, what to bring, what targets to shoot.

As far as divisions, were it not for RM3G, and later DPMS - there would be no He-Man/Heavy Metal divisions. I agree, these are the most different divisions and it can cause confusion, but they are also the youngest divisions. They are starting to gel a bit more all the time!

You say - I mean just the fun rules should be the same - but, who says what's fun???

There's a reason almost 1/2 the shooters are voting in this poll are voting for NO governing body!

Differences creates innovation! Innovation is dynamic! THAT is why 3-Gun is fun!

My point was simple (and, yes, I'm writing again!) the reason we have many of the common sense rules that add flexibility for stage design and dynamics to matches and the sport is the ability to try something you think will work better.

I like Brian Payne and Loganbills posts very much!

The reason 3-Gun is so exciting, is the differences and the lack of bureaucracy!!!

Denise

Edited April 11, 2014 by Benelli Chick

[Doug H.]

Read the new USPSA Multigun rules and you will find they are starting to look like the Outlaw rule sets. As long as the rules are posted before you sign up for a match there should be no complaints about equipment, scoring or penalties. If you can't be bothered to read the rules, any problems you encounter are of your own making.

Doug

[MarkCO]

Read the new USPSA Multigun rules and you will find they are starting to look like the Outlaw rule sets.

Yep, and we can thank USPSA BOD members who also shoot 3Gun, heck, I'll even call a few of them 3Gunners. Now if we could just get the "pistol" ROs to understand 3Gun and follow those rules, we'd have...wait, is that a trick?

[CJW]

Bureaucracy is not something I want to see, and as soon as you get a "Governing Body", bureaucracy follows.

That is TRUTH in a nutshell. I have one Homeowners Association already. I'd prefer not to have another one running my recreational time.

[gondo]

I was just using your words. But, what I was trying to explain, is that this thing called 3-Gun that You SEE, is only as much fun as it is BECAUSE people have had a chance to change things without a "Governing Body" Bureaucracy is not something I want to see, and as soon as you get a "Governing Body", bureaucracy follows.

Example 3 - Mr Miller, Trapr and Mike P tried to grow limited division by allowing 1x/red dots...just a little while before you started 3-Gun. They said it worked, other bigger matches tried it. Now, you see this as typical 3-Gun. It was anything but before. It was a crazy idea some rednecks (I say that in jest, they run Redneck Tactical!) came up with that is now pretty well accepted across the board.

What I'm trying to say is that 3-Gun is the rapidly growing, exciting, dynamic sport that it is BECAUSE of the lack of a governing body!

2003 - 3 national level 3-Gun matches. 2008 or so - almost 10 national 3-Gun matches and that was before 3-Gun nation threw their hat in the ring.

Practiscore - wouldn't exist were it not for outlaw matches and different scoring. "Governing bodies" in shooting tell you how to score, what to bring, what targets to shoot.

As far as divisions, were it not for RM3G, and later DPMS - there would be no He-Man/Heavy Metal divisions. I agree, these are the most different divisions and it can cause confusion, but they are also the youngest divisions. They are starting to gel a bit more all the time!

You say - I mean just the fun rules should be the same - but, who says what's fun???

There's a reason almost 1/2 the shooters are voting in this poll are voting for NO governing body!

Differences creates innovation! Innovation is dynamic! THAT is why 3-Gun is fun!

My point was simple (and, yes, I'm writing again!) the reason we have many of the common sense rules that add flexibility for stage design and dynamics to matches and the sport is the ability to try something you think will work better.

I like Brian Payne and Loganbills posts very much!

The reason 3-Gun is so exciting, is the differences and the lack of bureaucracy!!!

Denise

I bet your a cool chick!

[phidelt208]

3 gun Need a rule set for sure! a governing body not so much.

The rules should be set standard, and set by real shooters with shooters interest not folks who want to make it fun TV viewing.

[gose]

Pretty much all rule sets are only a few pages long. Is it really that big of deal to spend 10-15 mins to read through them before you go to a match?

Or is your laziness and/or lack of reading comprehension reason(s) enough to come up with one standardized rule set that still will be far from perfect and takes away freedom and opportunity to experiment from the MDs?

[alma]

Imagine playing basketball and every court you go to has a slightly different set of rules. Just saying that the rules are posted at the door of the gym and you are just lazy for not reading them doesn't change the fact that it's stupid.

I get that some modification in rules is required at different levels just like highschool, college, and the NBA will have slightly different rules, but the core game is still the same.

[CJW]

Meh. I prefer baseball to basketball. When you show up at a new park, you read the grounds rules because they vary from place to place. Not a big deal.

[Mike P]

Imagine playing basketball and every court you go to has a slightly different set of rules. Just saying that the rules are posted at the door of the gym and you are just lazy for not reading them doesn't change the fact that it's stupid.

I get that some modification in rules is required at different levels just like highschool, college, and the NBA will have slightly different rules, but the core game is still the same.

Team sports and 3-gun is a crappy analogy.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Mike P

[alma]

Imagine playing basketball and every court you go to has a slightly different set of rules. Just saying that the rules are posted at the door of the gym and you are just lazy for not reading them doesn't change the fact that it's stupid.

I get that some modification in rules is required at different levels just like highschool, college, and the NBA will have slightly different rules, but the core game is still the same.

Team sports and 3-gun is a crappy analogy.

What about golf then?

[slowsure]

Ken, of the rules you have listed, two aren't worth a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin getting it on.

WHAT?????!

Tell me about this dolphin.

[Moltke]

Skill > Gear is just a reminder to myself not to get wrapped around the axle on gear when there's so much more to shooting.

Skill > Rules may be more appropriate here?

Anyway, I realize a lot of good stuff has come out of the different 3 gun hubs around the country, and the more ideas the better, but national professional sports have standards not just similarities between venues.

Team sports or individual sports, whatever the case may be its still relevant (Colt 3 Man 3 Gun). I'd like to see 3Gun as mainstream, more than what it is now, something widely accepted and well known. Maybe something that is even shot at an Olympic level.

Never going to grow like that if its not unified at the very least on what the rules are.

[Glock3422]

"Anyway, I realize a lot of good stuff has come out of the different 3 gun hubs around the country, and the more ideas the better, but national professional sports have standards not just similarities between venues.

Team sports or individual sports, whatever the case may be its still relevant (Colt 3 Man 3 Gun). I'd like to see 3Gun as mainstream, more than what it is now, something widely accepted and well known. Maybe something that is even shot at an Olympic level.

Never going to grow like that if its not unified at the very least on what the rules are."

3 Gun is not and will never be a professional sport. Some people get some support, but only JM and the AMU get paid to shoot.

Extend your analogy to baseball. T ball, little league, high school, college, minors, majors. They all use a bat and a ball, and each has different rules. Would you like to see a major leaguer coming to bat swinging aluminum? You wouldn't be able to find a pitcher.

You really need to adapt to the matches you think are worth your time and money, or only shoot the ones you agree 100% with. Your view is, thankfully, in the minority and outlaw 3 gun is safe.

There is substantial push back from sponsors for more and more product. It doesn't make sense that they keep doing it at greater levels. Almost everything on the prize table is converted to cash shortly after the match. That product competes with the product the manufacturer, distributor, and dealer would have otherwise sold. It is an unsustainable model. There will always be prize tables, but the glory days are waning.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Glock3422

[bigbrowndog]

The "glorification" of our sport by the vocal minority, is nothing more than drum beating to try and get more people to notice THEM, so THEY can make more money from YOU!! Our sport is politically incorrect, socially unacceptable by mainstream media and public, and is NEVER going to be like NASCAR, or OLYMPICS, or XGAMES, or anything else that is acceptable to the masses of the World.

Face it we are a niche community, a niche sport, we are a miniscule percentage of a percentage point. Sure we can drive some innovation that we will benefit from, and others may benefit from, but as a whole 3 gun/multigun is nothing compared to the average gun owner in America, if we were such a driving force,.... then the highest selling gun would be a 1911 or Glock or AR or Benelli M1/2 or something other than a HIGH POINT!!!!!

The only thing you can control is yourself, and for some of you thats a full time job, (just kiddin") since the only thing you can control is you, then take responsibility for your actions and READ the F'in rules. STOP trying to get everyone else to attend to your shortcomings. KMiller said he's shot the same equipment since he started shooting, basically he has. I normally shoot in the most heavily convoluted division there is HM or HO, but I also shoot TO, 1X and Standard division, so I need to know all the rulesets except for OPEN, and that may change because I was offered an open SG to shoot the other day!! It isn't hard to read, and its well worth the effort.

RTFR!!!!!! stop complaining, go volunteer ( by definition), practice, buy good equipment, support those that support us, and RTFR!!!!!

Trapr

[Dan Sierpina]

Geeze, Trapr, there you go, making complete sense out the whole situation.

[Jeff F]

I and all the people I shoot with would rather not have a standard set if rules. We tend to have a sold out full match every month and every time we get a new shooter they want to come in and say that laying on the ground and shooting is to hard. They don't do it like that where I shoot on a regular basis.

My answer is then don't shoot our match! We have a lot of fun and it gives us plenty of trigger time for the major matches with rules?

[Solvability]

I voted in favor of 3 gun nation rules and now wish I said - let diversity rule - I like some standard classifiers that 3gun nation rules so we can rate our local performance vs multi regional shooters. The rules we are seeing in major matches are pretty reasonable and not that challenging for us to adapt to.

[Jetskidawg]

I completely agree w/ Bryan45's post (#130). Find a game you like with rules that align with your style of competition and gear, and go have fun.

[shooterrdy]

I voted 3 Gun Nation I think they are moving in the right direction. They do allot to advertise the sport and without advertisement for the sponsors there would be no Prize table donations. I would like to see the rule sets narrowed down some clubs rules are just a joke allowing

people without a rule book to make calls about rules that change year to year has proved to be a problem.

A choice actual rule books would be a good thing.

[kurtm]

Shooterrdy makes a good point, before 3-gun nation there never were any prize tables. It wasn't until 2010 or so that any match had a prize table because there was no advertizing. Manufacturers didn't know anything about 3-gun until it was on T.V. I guess all the stuff on those big tables at the end of matches in the olden days was just the end of match gun show.

If anything 3GN has hurt prize tables for "other matches" as it funnels away some of the sponsorship from established matches. As for a ruling body, it will never happened as long as every match fills up and has a wait list. There is no reason for M.D.s to change a thing.