Sterling White Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Mark and Kurt in agreement! Say it isn't so Keep it simple and keep it basic as they have pointed out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 I will edit my post ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 they covered it so well I didn't even post!!! what are the odds of all three of us agreeing to anything?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Agree with Kurt on this one. Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
springy Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Ken, I think you're making this far more difficult than necessary. Step 1. Sign up for match of shooter's choice Step 2. Read the rules for that match. Step 3. Go shoot match in accordance with rules. Whether it's gear, scoring, targets, or divisions, the game of 3 gun is about adapting. Sometimes this is in planning for a match, at other times it's on the clock, but I feel it's an important and enjoyable part of our game. If a shooter finds this need to adapt too cumbersome or difficult, they certainly have the option of only shooting the matches that use their preferred set of rules. You're saying that figuring out what the rules are is the same as figuring out how to shoot a stage, and that is what makes 3gun "enjoyable"? Seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 No, he is saying that if you are not smart enough to read the rules and adapt to them you are not smart enough to safely enjoy the sport of 3 gun. We do this shit for fun, why try and make it harder than it has to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 I'm not a big fan of reading for enjoyment, but implementing the different sets of rules can be fun. The only real differences in any sets of rules are either equipment allowances/restrictions or scoring. I enjoy the challenge of having to change equipment based on the rules of a given match, and also like the scoring changes. Shooting some matches that are 2 anywhere on paper, then going to Blue Ridge or TFD and using Horner scoring mixes things up. (I personally prefer the Horner scoring.) I don't find it a burden to have to shoot Alphas to have a clean run, it's just part of the game. These variances from one match to another is what I find enjoyable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 No, he is saying that if you are not smart enough to read the rules and adapt to them you are not smart enough to safely enjoy the sport of 3 gun. We do this shit for fun, why try and make it harder than it has to be. Why try making it harder than it has to be? You mean like having multiple rule sets? I can see keeping a unique 3 gun match unique because its fun that way, but it should still be about performance & improving yourself in a sport, competing and doing your best - which is the "fun". Standard divisions / scoring / targets are things that everyone here would comfortably and quickly adapt to; and new shooters would quickly learn too. Its a great way to grow the sport. Instead of continually changing the way you do things, or the gear you use, or the way you shoot, you can optimize your performance at "3 gunning". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 (edited) Instead of continually changing the way you do things, or the gear you use, or the way you shoot, you can optimize your performance at "3 gunning". If you shoot Open, Tac or Limited, that is just crazy talk. At 2 matches (BR3G and TFD3G in Tac and Lim) you have to put a plug in your SG magazine tube to allow no more than 8 in there. Otherwise, there is no change that requires anything but shooting the targets. I've run the same configuration for 4 years hitting almost every major match. Never had to do anything different, even though I read every ruleset for every major before I show up. The guys that are getting toasted are in the Heavy divisions where there at least 4 different pistols, 2 different shotguns and 2 different rifles. But then we all know only the rich and famous shoot the heavy categories. Edited April 10, 2014 by MarkCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Maybe the SSM DQs give the best example of why common rules are a good thing. The same safe actions which would be perfectly legal at man matches (including the previous year's SSM) was the root cause of the vast majority of DQs. Some may having not read the rules, some may have not understood the rules, but others may have just been doing the actions which were programmed into muscle memory and which came thoughtlessly during the heat of a run. I attended a recent match and heard 4 different opinions on how much time a miss would be penalized. The shotgun tube example is annoying but perhaps the least of the concerns. What are the most contentious differences between various 3 Gun rules? My guess is that the differences are relatively minor, somewhat arbitrary, and unlikely to greatly change the overall match in a significant way when switching one ruleset out forms another. If that is the case then why not come to a consensus that still allowed local MDs the flexibility to run stages the way they want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Because there are about a dozen people who want to be king and "have it their way." I think if you will go read the rules almost every match requires guns to be "completely empty" or on "safe", no different than SMM3G. The difference was in a stage gun that was handled differently in 2013 when it could be shot empty and in 2014 when you still had to pop the mag. I might not be the slowest competitor around, but when the match staff puts the rule on the table AND in the dump barrel...that was my first clue something might be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 How many different rules are there? I can think quickly of: FN rules 3GN rules Outlaw rules USPSA rules So where am I allowed to dump a gun when I'm done? Barrel? Table? Ground? Reholster? What is the scoring criteria? 2 hits? Hit factor? Points down? Steel must fall? Hits can be called? Are 1x optics allowed in Irons everywhere? What counts as a .30 rifle? .308? .300BLK? Standard penalties for FTEs? Misses? Long range steel? FTN? Points down? Target size / color / scoring values? This isn't hard stuff so why so complicated and different from place to place? The unique / fun aspects of a match don't have to do with these things anyway. It has to do with innovative and creative courses of fire, tough shots mixed in with everything else. Physically demanding movement while shooting or getting to a shooting position - drag a sled, run to some spot, shoot fast on the move, whatever else. Any match director should be able to make interesting courses of fire using standard targets types, a single scoring method, unified division sets and basic safety rules. There's no reason to make the sport harder for shooters with varying rules, gear, targets, target presentations, and "safety rules". We can make it about the shooting, or we can make it about a bunch of other stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Ken, let me guess, you shot a good bit of USPSA or IDPA before 3Gun? 3Gun "was" more organic than the pistol sports. It was just common sense, good sportsmanship. The range lawyers/Nazis were not trying to catch every little trick, just hang out with friends, shoot guns and have fun. No one really got spun up about the little stuff. It is different now, with a different crowd. Maybe with the newer crowd, more direction would be beneficial. But then, I don't see any complication in any of the rulesets. Heck, I was a Rangemaster for three different rulesets last year and it did not seem complicated. If skill is greater than gear, is skill also better than a ruleset? But then last night I had carrot cake for desert, the night before I had ice cream and tonight I have not yet heard the choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 And then there are the rules that no one thinks about until it becomes an issue like whether you can shoot off of that tree that is out of bounds as long as your feet stay in. Maturing the rules in a standard way with an accepted governance process to ensure voices are heard has advantages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 One more thought. Has anyone done a side by side comparison to map out commonalities and identify differences between the various 3 Gun rule sets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 One more thought. Has anyone done a side by side comparison to map out commonalities and identify differences between the various 3 Gun rule sets? Jason Tielke did one a few years ago. See if this link still works: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AllOHAfJZi57dG9qUU5WTjBXR0hoYnhnVkxiLTJoZEE&usp=sharing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Ken, of the rules you have listed, two aren't worth a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin getting it on. Which is a good enough reason for the other two to exist. My opinions are certainly different enough from others to be an example of justification for multiple rule sets to exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowsure Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Ken, of the rules you have listed, two aren't worth a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin getting it on. WHAT?????! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 I started in April 2012 with 3 Gun and haven't been doing this all that long compared to some of you guys but I've been very active since then. I decided I'd be better off learning how to shoot a pistol first so I focused on USPSA and now I'm changing gears to refocus on 3 Gun, trying to participate in TACIRONS & TACOPS and hit as many major matches as I can. I'm no range Nazi and want to have a good time, grow the sport, get better, etc. The things I listed above are the differences I've seen personally as I've only shot from PA to SC and and there's alot to keep track of depending on where you go. Things like scoring, divisions, targets, presentations, penalties, DQ's, etc could be easily standardized and it wouldn't affect any of the unique / fun matches in any way. I don't really see what the problem is other than people are trying to hold on to reputations and empires they've built in the past based on the "cool" matches they've run. If match directors are in favor of getting more shooters to play, enabling easy entry into the sport, focusing on developing unique and interesting courses of fire, and allowing shooters to focus on the act of shooting - then standardizing makes perfect sense. I don't really care what the framework would be, I just want one set of standards to care about and build around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 The list of things I want to say on this topic are numerous, but I have been biting my lip for months. And I will keep most of it to myself, BUT... When I started shooting 3-Gun in 2003, the general consensus was you abandoned your guns on tables or in cute little putt-putt wood and carpet receptacles, both long guns and pistols. Then, you could not go downrange of your gun because it would be pointed at you and you don't want a gun pointing at anything you do not wish to destroy! There were a couple matches doing abandonment different! IF, we had just all gotten along and gone with consensus, we would still be there today! NOW, it is a general consensus, that long guns are dumped muzzle down in barrels. The pistol is still falling into place. A bathroom wastepaper basket with a cube to keep the pistol pointing into the ground is my preferred way. Some matches have there little wooden ramps in ammo cans, very few people put it down flat anymore because it's so easy to knock off the safety that way. So, what I am saying with this ONE of MANY examples is IF we had gone with consensus, and everyone did the same thing, we wouldn't have gotten to this much better place we're in now!!! USPSA works/argues/debates on the rules all the time, and the "outlaw" matches pushed them into better rulesets!!! DIFFERENT is NOT BAD!!! The New Ideas, that all these horrible, disagreeable outlaw matches have created have made a positive change in 3-Gun rules for many! 3GN took their rules from Outlaw matches and tweeked!!! RANT OFF!!!! And I won't tell you everything I really think on this topic! Denise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 AND...if we had followed consensus on DQ's, the SMM3G debacle would be happening EVERYWHERE!!!!! You had to empty your gun completely, safety on - not okay - now it is!!! Common Sense has ruled because of those self-centered, reputation conscious, empire driven match directors!!!! Whoops, example #2. Really, I m shutting up now!! Denise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Well I have played this game for a very long time and I can honestly say that the gear I am using right now is the exact same gear I ran in 1998. I have never had to change it for any match. Hell it is the same gear I run over seas in IPSC matches. People make way too much about gear being different.....IT ISN'T. Read the rules and go play. So you might have to plug your shotgun, big deal, you might need chamber flags, so what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 True words from one of the innovators! Gets some Denise!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Thanks to another innovator, Kurt or Kirk or whatever your name is! Or are you the other Miller brother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Guess I hit a nerve? I was not implying that match directors are being malicious however people make decisions based on their goals so what are the goals? I hear and read that folks want to grow the sport so why not reduce barriers to entry? Want to get more shooters? Make it easier for them to play. Want to build better competitors? Give them standards. Still don't see how standardizing the things I listed above stops creativity or you from using a trash can as a dump bucket, but then maybe I haven't been around long enough I guess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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