Jesse Tischauser Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I don't know 3GN's balance sheet but I do know the company itself isn't making money after paying salaries. That and am certain that those salaries weren't as big as the $50,000 check Tommy and Keith won the first two years in existence. Nobody's getting rich off of 3 gun guys. Not Chad, Pete, competitors manufacturers nobody. It's tiny compared to the hunting and tactical world. So keep fighting to keep it in the dark! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 So as of now only 104 people have voted for or against an organization. BFD! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Jesse, I think I understand where you are coming from. You see 3GN as the future of our sport. You feel that because it is televised, it is the pinnacle of competition and where the best should naturally be playing. I am guessing that you enjoy the format of the matches and find that your skill set allows you to do well in them. That is all well and good for you. Many of us feel differently. This may be hard to believe, but some shooters could care less about being on television, and prefer matches that do not cater to being filmed. Some of us are not even motivated by prize tables or even cash prizes. For those of us that prefer our matches to be ran differently from the format that 3GN is promoting you can expect little support or even outright resistance. You feel the need to make 3GN out to be a benevolent nonprofit, I could care less if they make a profit, but benevolent they are not. If the operators of 3GN are not able to turn a decent profit I am not going to shed a tear for them any more than you would stay up nights worrying about my business ventures. Fortunately there is no way that anyone is going to take over the sport of three gun, not USPSA, and certainly not 3GN. As long as people are free to put on matches and attend them, there will always be "outlaw" 3gun matches. I bet when the you look at the big picture there are more outlaws than there are conformists in our sport. To bring this whole waste of intent resources back on topic, I feel that any national governing body, even if it was directly in line with my personal whims and desires for the sport would be a waste of time and effort. We don't need an organization to add another needles level of manegment to try and control what the match directors are and should be doing for the sport. What the sport needs are more matches put on by more people, not more organizations telling people how to run the matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 great response to some inane comments stlhead, DITTO Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Well said, Stlhead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I need my head examined for continuing this discussion. There is no changing your mind or anyone else on the "outlaw" bandwagon. However, I will address your post because you don't understand where I'm coming from at all. You and several of the other fortunate 3 gunners have been playing this and other gun games a long time and have enjoy what has been done in the past. I started four years ago. It upsets me that I didn't start 15 years earlier when I was legally able to buy a sidearm at age 21. The reason I didn't start until I was 35 was that I didn't know anything other than bullseye, trap, skeet, sporting clays and high power existed. An organization of sorts helps get the word out to new shooters as will a television show. I get PMs and emails and answer question on forums now more than ever from guys that want to get started because they saw 3 Gun on 3GN, Shooting USA, Shooting Gallery, Guns and Gear or any of the other TV shows that are covering the game more than ever before. I don't see 3GN as the pinnacle of the sport. I think the pinnacle is yet to come. I'm not very good at the pro series as can be seen by my 17th place ranking. I also don't feel that the pro series matches that are televised are even a good representation of the sport I enjoy. I personally enjoy a good mix of all the things we do from long range to cab to slugs to long pistol etcetera. The pro series is TV 3 gun. It's fast and furious in an attempt to catch the eye of the viewer with some excitement. If I was in charge I would be turning the upcoming Regional Series matches into the TV show and the Pro Series. I think all the cool stuff we do at the outlaw match in the natural terrain by shooting out of cool positions and off platforms and basically anything you can't do at the gun club or out on your farm is what attracts people to the sport. I know that's what attracted me. When I saw the Iron Man match video of the shooter starting with a hood over jus head having to cut his hands free pick up an AK and fight his way out if a building to get his own gun I was hooked! What I think is the future of 3 gun is not 3 Gun Nation. What I would like to see is a true to the roots real pro series with shooting that encompasses all the aspects of all 3 guns with 50 of the best young guys and hopefully gals coming out of high school or college trying to shoot 3 gun for a living. Getting paid by sponsors to shoot everyday and taking home big purses from matches while I watch it all unfold from my couch every Sunday. Without an organization of sorts that will never happen because the sport is simply too small. 3GN just happens is the best vehicle to get the sport there right now. Plus I think the guys that own, film and work for 3GN are good people and despite the fact that they aren't doing it for fun I think their hearts are in the right place and are actually trying to leave the sport in a better place than when they left it. As for wanting to be on TV or shooting for prizes I don't think anybody shoots for those reasons. I constantly see people act like winning a prize or being on TV to promote your sponsors is a terrible thing. Yet I don't see anybody turning down their trip to the prize table or walking away from a sponsorship because they want to pay more $ to shoot. We all shoot 3 gun because we like two things, shooting and competing. Prize tables and being on TV helps all of us do more of the shooting and competing simple as that. Without the TV show or a prize table at every match you wouldn't see half as many shooters traveling around the country having a blast shooting 3 Gun. Jesse, I think I understand where you are coming from. You see 3GN as the future of our sport. You feel that because it is televised, it is the pinnacle of competition and where the best should naturally be playing. I am guessing that you enjoy the format of the matches and find that your skill set allows you to do well in them. That is all well and good for you. Many of us feel differently. This may be hard to believe, but some shooters could care less about being on television, and prefer matches that do not cater to being filmed. Some of us are not even motivated by prize tables or even cash prizes. For those of us that prefer our matches to be ran differently from the format that 3GN is promoting you can expect little support or even outright resistance. You feel the need to make 3GN out to be a benevolent nonprofit, I could care less if they make a profit, but benevolent they are not. If the operators of 3GN are not able to turn a decent profit I am not going to shed a tear for them any more than you would stay up nights worrying about my business ventures. Fortunately there is no way that anyone is going to take over the sport of three gun, not USPSA, and certainly not 3GN. As long as people are free to put on matches and attend them, there will always be "outlaw" 3gun matches. I bet when the you look at the big picture there are more outlaws than there are conformists in our sport. To bring this whole waste of intent resources back on topic, I feel that any national governing body, even if it was directly in line with my personal whims and desires for the sport would be a waste of time and effort. We don't need an organization to add another needles level of manegment to try and control what the match directors are and should be doing for the sport. What the sport needs are more matches put on by more people, not more organizations telling people how to run the matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Nice post Jesse, I'm sure more than a few folks thought you were one of the "6 pay roll folks", your post really clears up many misconceptions and I find myself agreeing with you more than not. I would like to point out....and NO I AM NOT PICKING A FIGHT!!!!.... that shooting shows HAVE been showing 3-gun matches for a very long time. The first time I was on a cable show was in 1997 at SMM3G. You had to look hard, but most major 3-gun matches were covered in some way by Shooting USA, NRA T.V. and several others that escape my "old guy" memory. Every DPMS Tri Gun Challenge was on T.V. as were the old Ft. Benning matches. SMM3G was seen many times, and SOF even made film a time or two. Hell I even made the T.V. over Italy durring the first ever European Shotgun Championships in 2003. The showes were there, even if you missed them, but let,s be honest here....your 3-Gun bears probably did more to jump start the growth than a dedicated 3GN show. It is folks like you who are all over the face-book interweb ( no slight intended at all) that has really sparked the interest. This is a new phenominon as us Dinosaurs never did that, nor was it available Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 First off, I am not trying to argue with you Jesse, or even change your opinions, and I will admit that the chances of me changing my positions are very slim, but we should be able to have a civil discussion about the sport we all enjoy so much, and greater understanding of our fellow shooters motivations can't be a bad thing. You bring up my favorite blind stage EVER as a motivation for you to start shooting 3 gun. No organizing body would ever let a stage like that happen. Hot stage guns (that you did not get a chance to handle or even SEE prior to the start) off safe littering the stage, abandoning guns "pointing in a safe direction" firecrackers under your ass, drag a dummy, hot pistol re-holstering, oral instructions screamed at you while you have a hood on your head and your hands zip tied together. A stage briefing that warns the participants not to be a "Buddy f*#ker" and a lot of shooting. That stage had nearly everything I like to see in a stage, and it is the farthest thing from what 3 gun nation, USPSA, IDPA, or the NRA would ever let fly. Even outlaw has become less outlaw over the last few years. The best stage I shot last year was not at a three gun match, it was at a long range tactical match, and it was brilliantly simple and seriously fun. We need less rules, more experimentation, more crazy match ideas, and less "Buddy f*#king". I am not advocating that we get people shot, but you can take safety too far. There needs to be some balance, and a national organization is not going to bring creativity and balance. I want the matches to be fun first, because if it is not fun why do it? You want to grow the sport, I can respect that. I also would like to see the sport grow, but not the same way that you do. From what I have read you would like to see 3 gun look like other professional sports, with a few participating, and the great masses watching on TV. I would like to see matches all over the country (or world) put on by many diverse people and groups, where a great number of people participate. With a great diversity in matches, and the great communication provided by the internet, we would be able to pick and choose the shooting experience that we enjoy and attend the matches that interest us. If you like big stages, high round counts, over the top physical challenges? Then the Ironman, the Hard as Hell, and the Montana multi gun are your tickets. If you dig natural terrain, interesting stages, and unsighted pistol fire with an epic all shotgun stage? Then a trip to the RM3G should be on your list. If you like steel challenge and 3GN that will be your choice. Personally, I want to see matches with stupid physical challenges, obstacle courses, three gun stages where you ride a mountain bike, American Ninja crazy shit. If it's fun and challenging, it will go on Youtube and people will watch it, and want to do it. The GoPro is what will grow our sport, along with kick ass stages that make people want to join the fun, just like you did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R-Bros_JLR Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 If it's fun and challenging, it will go on Youtube and people will watch it, and want to do it. The GoPro is what will grow our sport, along with kick ass stages that make people want to join the fun, just like you did. This is a great point, and one worth repeating. I also agree with the point that we need more people putting on more matches rather than more people trying to organize things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I want American ninja crazy shit too! Man, I wish I had shot ironman that year.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) You want to grow the sport, I can respect that. I also would like to see the sport grow, but not the same way that you do. From what I have read you would like to see 3 gun look like other professional sports, with a few participating, and the great masses watching on TV. I'm not sure what pro sport your thinking of that's only watched on TV and not played by the masses. NFL MLB NBA NHL PGA etcetera. The reason there are pro sports is because of the popularity of it with the masses. I'd love to see more 3 gun from top to bottom. I think they both rely on each other. The sport definitely needs more clubs at the local level. I still don't see a club match in Louisiana for crying out loud! The masses are the core of any sport. All of our big regional matches that have been around for more than a year or fill in minutes so we need more of those too. Then at the top level we still don't have a match that tests all the skills we see in the game and there definitely isn't a match that all the top guys feel like they must attend. More organization within the sport will help all of these things more than hurt them. There are still outlaw USPSA type matches. That monster match, ProAm, etcetera. Just cause there is organization doesn't mean matches have to lose individuality. Heck if you look at the rule sets of the big outlaw matches they all use most of the same rules with less than 10 or so changes to scoring, shotgun capacity, penalties, or supporting devices. We are trying to line out the rules for the Generation III Gun match now. I'm gonna go through all the big matches rules and make a list of differences to learn what all the disagreement is really about. None of the differences make any one match better or worse than the other. It just makes them different cause nobody can agree. Edited January 9, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Wearing two hats here so bear with me. As an Area Director I would love to see all MG matches under the USPSA umbrella. As a competitor I'd be bored to tears. I do think there needs to be a national organization to push three gun at the club level. But I definitely don't think all three gun matches need to be a part of it. Where a national organization can help is really at the club level. New clubs starting out can really benefit from having a set of rules that have been vetted instead of trying to come up with stuff on they fly. It can also help with getting the club even started depending on the Club policies. It's a lot easier sell to a bunch of trap shooters to say you want to bring in a sport that is run by a national org as opposed to showing the a set of rules written on a bar napkin and say you want to run around their range with a bunch of guns. As for the guys saying three gun only needs a two page rule book, or a ten. Good luck. The reason those short rule books exist is because the RM has discretion in everything else. That leads to inconsistent decisions or just falling back on USPSA rules. I saw both happen this year. In fact I had three different RMs at major matches ask me how the USPSA rule book would handle a certain situation or two. Not slamming them. A ten page rule book doesn't cover everything the gamey bunch of weasels that shoot three gun will come up with. Short answer, national orgs (spellcheck tried to change that to ogres, hmmm) aren't bad. But I wouldn't want to see all three gun governed by one or even two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glock3422 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 3gn is a strange mash up of everything that has come before. There is some IMGA, IDPA, PPC, USPSA and two anywhere. You take the simplicity of two anywhere and add a laundry list of penalties that can not be consistently applied topped off by the always popular, FTE. Add to that, the Heavy exception. My main problem with 3gn is with the scoring. The notion of firing a gun at a target that counts two anywhere is a waste of ammo and puts speed ahead of marksmanship. Shooting 31 cent bullets is bad enough, but having to replace them with 41 cent bullets is painful. The notion that a target beyond 40 yards is somehow "long range" and deserves a higher penalty is laughable. I would wager that you could take all of the 3gn ROs, give them a rules test, and a sizeable number couldn't get 80% right. That is just too complicated. If you have to have special ROs for the big money matches, the general membership is being short changed. Don't get me started on mandatory reloads. Being charged more money for a classifier stage that is a waste by itself adds insult to injury. How about making classifiers optional? Prize tables are good for the 20% and not so good for the 80%. Match fees for all sorts of matches seem to be getting out of hand and the justification is the prize table. Stop the insanity. I saw competitors claim handguns off of a big match prize table and then put them back when they found out how much the shipping FFL was going to charge them. We have some local guys running a rifle match that actually said they raised the price of the match so that some series would consider them for inclusion. They took a $25 match to $35, added cold food and a T shirt and got to $100 in three years, with no prize table. Everyone got a bottle of sight paint from one of the 27 sponsors listed on the shirt. I have no idea where the rest of the sponsor merchandise ended up. This is nothing new, just taken to a new level. The skill set and follow through of the people running these matches, in my experience, does not justify the price charged. If you try to talk to them about how to improve what they are doing, they become defensive. If you won't listen, you can't learn. Rather than getting big headed about how many shooters you have, think about the shooters who started with you and aren't there any more. There are probably several reasons why and you should always want to know what they are if you want to be successful in the long term. IDPA could be a lesson on how not to treat customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Thank you Chuck, for weighing in on this subject, and your candor. And thank you Jesse for continuing to discus this in a productive manner as well. I just wasted 15 minutes typing up a huge post that was nothing more than a rehash of what has already been said. Instead of puking out the same thoughts in a different order I am going to try and do something productive. I am going to spend a little time working on stages that will inspire the next generation of 3 gun shooters. Jesse you can noodle out a way to bring club 3 gun to the masses, and Chuck can rub his hands together and do that Dr. Evil thing that we all know he does in his secret bat lair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Damnit Talley, I told you about that in confidence. Now Jesse's gonna want to come spend the night at the Lair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSnSC Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) Our club signed up with 3 Gun Nation to hopefully get some exposure and more shooters to the range. Not sure how much that has really helped, but it hasnt hurt. Edited January 10, 2014 by LSnSC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgtsvi Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I pretty much shoot 3 gun exclusively as USPSA doesn't charge me up any more. As much I like seeing the sport grow, I selfishly don't want it grown to the point where I can't get into matches because they fill up in 30 seconds. I think both sides of this discussion have valid points, but will probably not pull each other over to their side. I just read the rules for each match and try to play by the rules to the best of my ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actionshooter Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 I think this has been a great discussion and IMO have seen valid points on both sides. I have not really been a fan of 3GN (or any other governing body) but I do see the benefits they are bringing to the sport. A larger number of shooters will give us more matches and more choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowsure Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 (edited) Our local club just restarted 3G again. We have not signed up for 3GN, IDPA, USPSA or any other organization. We are a small no frills club just trying to have some 3G fun. I really don't see the helping hand of any organization at the club level. I have just seen more work on the part of match staff/organizers to send scores/money for the shooters to be able to shoot that organizations style match. I'm not sure the value added is worth the hassle of being associated with any org. If one of the organizations wants to come out and help setup on the morning of our reentry to 3G or donate some Texas stars, plate racks etc....I'm all ears. Edit to add: in the interest of "promoting the sport" as a lot of people like to say. Edited January 11, 2014 by slowsure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 I agree with slowsure. I was looking at starting a USPSA club for three gun. But there was no advantages to it and a lot of cons such as loosing the ability to set the stages how you want, having to use specified targets and having to deal with shooters who are USPSA attorney types when it comes to the rule book. It would be different if there were benefits to being affiliated with such an organization but at the club level I don't see it.Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 So as of now only 104 people have voted for or against an organization. BFD! Perhaps if it were a simple yes or no poll it would have gathered more responses. I did not vote due to the ops interjection of each choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 (edited) When I think about starting our local club last year...If I had to use USPSA rulebook, or 3GN rules, I do not think I would have bothered. Instead used a hybridization of Blue Ridge and Pro-am. Does leave a lot to the MD interpretation, but I have yet had a shooter quote a rules 5.6-1 when trying to argue something (does not happen much at our matches). 4-5 pages of rules are useable. A book, or rules/targets that are made for TV I think would be a pain at our locals. Edited January 11, 2014 by Lead-Head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnivelingDramaQueen Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) Very soon you have IPSC multigun rules http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=16553 Edited March 7, 2014 by ZeljkoLucic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) Very soon you have IPSC multigun rules http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=16553 That should gain traction in the US like IPSC pistol and shotgun rules did.Good to see IPSC taking notice of 3-Gun Edited March 7, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnivelingDramaQueen Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Next General Assembly IPSC is in Florida and when we get a new IPSC discipline MULTIGUN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now