Does 3 gun need a governing body?

[kurtm]

Hey Jesse, you are going to have to be more direct for Mr. Zeljkolucic. Sarcasm doesn't cross over languages very well, and English is not his native language.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Hey Jesse, you are going to have to be more direct for Mr. Zeljkolucic. Sarcasm doesn't cross over languages very well, and English is not his native language.

Yeah I kinda figured that.

Mr. Zeljkolucic.

Not many matches in the USA use USPSA 3 gun rules anymore. Furthermore nobody uses any IPSC rules. Heck when an IPSC shotgun match is held here half the shotgunners don't even attend. Same for the IPSC world pistol shoot. Americans don't care cause the rules are so different and complex than our US rules. So the chances of IPSC influencing anything 3-gun in the US is zero to not a chance.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[kurtm]

There you go! Making friends on many continents. Direct is aways best

[gunfighteruk]

As one of the British organizers of our stunted version of multigun ( 12g/,22 carbine(no handguns) & staged 223)we had to come up with our own rules based on Gary Welborn's Pro/am format.

We have joined 3GN at Club level & it's funny that they show google image of my house rather than our main range as the venue on the 3GN website !

Having said that our matches are very popular most selling out in only a few days although we are limited on range space/time.

Any other Euro competitors send me a PM as im keen to get some thing going , i know Italy & Poland shoot 3 gun so a big central European match is possible.

Ipsc has taken a backseat over here with the "outlaw" shotgun & multigun matches bringing out double & triple the number of shooters.One set of rules would not work due to local laws outside of the USA. But we keep on stealing your good ones.

http://four4islands.org

Edited March 9, 2014 by gunfighteruk

[Neomet]

At the risk of having virtual stones thrown in my direction I will say here as I did in a discussion about how we should grow USPSA that I am not a huge fan of large growth in this sport. Yeah, I said it. The reason is I don't believe we have the infrastructure at ranges to support it. Most ranges have 4 or 5 bays available for local matches. How many people do you think you can stack into that space for your local matches? I live at arguably the epicenter of the practical shooting universe here in Phoenix and frankly we are reaching the point where people are starting to not come to matches (handgun and to a lesser extent 3G) because of the amount of time it takes to shoot 4 stages. The MDs here are all great about emphasizing resetting stages quickly and we run rolling squads with a 1 1/2 hour window to start shooting but at some point sheer volume will defeat even the best laid plans of mice and men. Last handgun match we had 94 competitors. Last 3G we had 90 and these are our normal, albeit great weekend matchs. Don't even talk about Tuesday Night Steel which is running between 180 and 200.

I realize not all clubs have this issue but if you do increase participation this is the light you are seeing at the end of that long tunnel of your work.

As others have already pointed out we are already at the point where anything above a local match is filled as quickly as fingers can type the application out. Been feeling the love going around lately around that issue? I don't see that improving with increased participation.

In the end I would ask the question of why do you want to grow? How does it improve what we are currently doing? We will always be a relatively obscure portion of the shooting universe. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. We love the sport. Makes no difference if 2,000 other people or 2,000,000 love it too. It isn't just this sport, I routinely see this almost reflexive urge to make whatever people or organizations have bigger, larger, without any analysis if it is actually a good thing or not. Explain to me how growing the sport improves it for the majority of us shooting it now and maybe I will get more interested in which governing body, if any, can best facilitate that. Until then this is a non-starter for me.

Clearly I am speaking from the perspective of someone in an area where the sport is already successful. Geez, it is way too late and I will probably kick my own butt in the morning for blabbing on so much. Ah well.........

[kurtm]

Nope, I agree completely this is something I said a while ago as well, but I didn't do it near as concisely. Great post!

[TXMXRACER]

At the risk of having virtual stones thrown in my direction I will say here as I did in a discussion about how we should grow USPSA that I am not a huge fan of large growth in this sport. Yeah, I said it. The reason is I don't believe we have the infrastructure at ranges to support it. Most ranges have 4 or 5 bays available for local matches. How many people do you think you can stack into that space for your local matches? I live at arguably the epicenter of the practical shooting universe here in Phoenix and frankly we are reaching the point where people are starting to not come to matches (handgun and to a lesser extent 3G) because of the amount of time it takes to shoot 4 stages. The MDs here are all great about emphasizing resetting stages quickly and we run rolling squads with a 1 1/2 hour window to start shooting but at some point sheer volume will defeat even the best laid plans of mice and men. Last handgun match we had 94 competitors. Last 3G we had 90 and these are our normal, albeit great weekend matchs. Don't even talk about Tuesday Night Steel which is running between 180 and 200.

I realize not all clubs have this issue but if you do increase participation this is the light you are seeing at the end of that long tunnel of your work.

As others have already pointed out we are already at the point where anything above a local match is filled as quickly as fingers can type the application out. Been feeling the love going around lately around that issue? I don't see that improving with increased participation.

In the end I would ask the question of why do you want to grow? How does it improve what we are currently doing? We will always be a relatively obscure portion of the shooting universe. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. We love the sport. Makes no difference if 2,000 other people or 2,000,000 love it too. It isn't just this sport, I routinely see this almost reflexive urge to make whatever people or organizations have bigger, larger, without any analysis if it is actually a good thing or not. Explain to me how growing the sport improves it for the majority of us shooting it now and maybe I will get more interested in which governing body, if any, can best facilitate that. Until then this is a non-starter for me.

Clearly I am speaking from the perspective of someone in an area where the sport is already successful. Geez, it is way too late and I will probably kick my own butt in the morning for blabbing on so much. Ah well.........

Excellent post.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Our club went from not having enough shooters to hold a match to as Kurt thinks too many shooters to have a good match in 2-3 years.

If demand grows so must supply.

Our club now has a 3-gun director, Kurt and more bays than ever. The big problem we have is relying on volunteers to run matches.

Several people are putting on matches as a business now and it's working. They are building new ranges, awesome stages and everything it takes including the time and dedication. I think they should be compensated for it so that somebody wants to do it and do it well every month or even every weekend.

We have more clubs shooting 3-gun than ever before and more new majors than ever before. We now have an all ladies major and a non profit major that gives back to Juniors.

The more demand we see the more capitalism will kick in and make it all work.

As far as the question of why more shooters is better than what we have now for the average joe. There's the obvious things that go along with supporting the 2A by having more shooters and gun owners shooting a sport with the evil black guns everyone wants to criminalize. We also have a bunch of clubs that give away prizes at monthly matches because companies are supporting the sport more as a result of the growth in participation. The ultimate would be to have the sport grow to the point where it's on TV regularly next to other things like MMA, X Games or any of that cool off the wall stuff. Heck I dream of growth that has people opening up golf course but for 3-gun not golf. Book a tee time any day of the week with your buds. Show up at your booked time and shoot your stages and leave. That would be tits!

Edited March 9, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[kurtm]

No I don't think we have too many shooters to put on a good match, Jesse, that has never been my feeling. What we don't have are the seasoned 3-gunners that can safely help run a bigger match. It is not unusual now to have 2-3 full squads of new shooters that cant run timers cant remember to tape,and don't know anything about safety being run by one or two guys who are on their 3rd match who are now relied upon to do all that plus score. Most our seasoned shooters want to shoot together because they are "practicing" for the next 10 second time slot on tv and cant be bothered with helping out. On top of that you have guys lending all their back up gear to New shooters and not staying around to even see if they know how to use it safely. Do you wonder why I rarely shoot one of the matches I put on? I cant because as the head of 3-gun the safety of the event falls directly on me, so I am always moving about making sure things are safe. Then I got guys who interpret the stages and change them to their advantage unless someone looks over their shoulder, then i got people who wont enforce the safety rules cause its their buddy, kind of like a slug over the berm, that I get to hear about after the fact from a board member.

No Jesse, we haven't grown to big, we haven't built on a base, and the busier we get, the scarier it becomes. Besides I really don't know why you even care as you only shoot 1-2 of our club matches per year. The reason I even still put them on is because I really like this sport. I have been putting on or helping put on matches for 20 some years now, and two things are happening, less "qualified" help, and growers telling me what I'm doing wrong! Yep I'm getting burnt out, and not just with putting on matches, but with the whole new way of looking at 3-gun!

[kurtm]

Disclaimer: No I am not picking a fight with Jesse, I am not indicting him for anything, this is just the view point from the other side since he used my name directly these are just responses. It is also called a discussion, and not ment to be inflammatory or accusatory.

[joshs]

I'd like there to be an easily searchable listing of 3 gun clubs/matches like there is for USPSA or IDPA. The match announcements threads here and at 3gn/ar15.com are the closest thing available, but it's nice to be able to enter a location and see the closest matches. Other than that, I'm still fine with no governing body as long as individual matches clearly indicate which rules they will be using.

[GWelborn]

I’ve been a big fan of USPSA pistol for many years but am not a fan of USPSA MG. As a MD/shooter of both USPSA and Wildcat MG I prefer the flexibility of the modified IMG rules. USPSA has been unsuccessful at growing/promoting MG at the local or regional level. The rule set has historically been too rigid and inflexible. While I’m throwing rocks at my USPSA, I’ll throw in my personal pet peeve. The USPSA MG and Handgun Nationals seem to have found a permanent home on the West coast.

On the subject of growth, it seems we are a victim of our own success. Our local matches have also grown to the point where further growth will affect the quality of the experience. Our Club like many others has worked for years to bring our numbers up and now we want to stop the growth??? Let’s look for another solution. In a democratic society numbers matter. Local club matches are where most of us got our start. It still supports the most shooters and brings in most new shooters.

“Back in the Day” NTPS in TN ran a two day format for their local pistol matches. Some wanted to shoot on Saturday and others on Sunday so they compromised and shot both days. What a great solution. Twice the shooting. The format allowed NTPS to handle 100 shooters easily and shoot two guns each day! There are some problems to overcome. You’ll likely need two sets of leaders working together. I’m sure you have noticed that shooters are an independent bunch especially MGers. A two day format may not work in every local but it will for some. There must be other clubs out there using a two day format now. We are shooting a two day MG at our local club ORPCI in April. We’ll see what happens.

Major matches are a different animal. The Brownells Rockcastle ProAm had ~1200 hits for 500 slots. That kind of response is exciting but again I don’t like turning perfectly good shooters away. We need everybody. Perhaps some of our more learned/experienced shooters can offer up solutions for continued growth. I don’t have one…… Maybe we could just host more matches?????????

[Jesse Tischauser]

I'd like there to be an easily searchable listing of 3 gun clubs/matches like there is for USPSA or IDPA. The match announcements threads here and at 3gn/ar15.com are the closest thing available, but it's nice to be able to enter a location and see the closest matches. Other than that, I'm still fine with no governing body as long as individual matches clearly indicate which rules they will be using.

There is http://3gunnation.com/club_series/club_directory

[Jesse Tischauser]

No I don't think we have too many shooters to put on a good match, Jesse, that has never been my feeling. What we don't have are the seasoned 3-gunners that can safely help run a bigger match. It is not unusual now to have 2-3 full squads of new shooters that cant run timers cant remember to tape,and don't know anything about safety being run by one or two guys who are on their 3rd match who are now relied upon to do all that plus score. Most our seasoned shooters want to shoot together because they are "practicing" for the next 10 second time slot on tv and cant be bothered with helping out. On top of that you have guys lending all their back up gear to New shooters and not staying around to even see if they know how to use it safely. Do you wonder why I rarely shoot one of the matches I put on? I cant because as the head of 3-gun the safety of the event falls directly on me, so I am always moving about making sure things are safe. Then I got guys who interpret the stages and change them to their advantage unless someone looks over their shoulder, then i got people who wont enforce the safety rules cause its their buddy, kind of like a slug over the berm, that I get to hear about after the fact from a board member.

No Jesse, we haven't grown to big, we haven't built on a base, and the busier we get, the scarier it becomes. Besides I really don't know why you even care as you only shoot 1-2 of our club matches per year. The reason I even still put them on is because I really like this sport. I have been putting on or helping put on matches for 20 some years now, and two things are happening, less "qualified" help, and growers telling me what I'm doing wrong! Yep I'm getting burnt out, and not just with putting on matches, but with the whole new way of looking at 3-gun!

I don't care to discuss our clubs problems on the internet. I was just using our clubs growth as a talking point.

How many seasoned veterans does a club need on a squad at any match? What defines seasoned shooter that is able to run a squad? USPSA RO certification? A few majors shot? These are things all these new clubs need to know.

It all boils down to volunteers and I am all for compensating individuals that help make it all go round even at the club level.

[Bryan 45]

I agree with a lot of what both Kyrt and Gary posted above. As one of two match directors at out club, too fast (and unexpected) growth can be dangerous. We had our first local 3 gun match last May and at only our 4th match, 114 shooters showed up. We have a great group of guys that volunteer to help, but with 20+ shooters on a squad, we ran short of people we know we can trust to be mixed in with the new shooters.

We've considered what Gary mentions NTPS did to allow more shooters, but then you're stretching already thin experienced match staff to a thread.

The one and only issue I see with "for profit" 3 gun is that the goal of the entity running the match is now financial gain. As a small business owner, I run my business to maximize profit while maintaining a relationship with my customers that is good enough to keep them calling me back. That's the great thing about being a volunteer match director. We can put together the stages that we enjoy shooting, ones which really test skill, mobility, and equipment, and if it doesn't appeal to the majority of shooters, they're free not to come back. Now, for some of these for-profit matches to be filling registration in a matter of minutes or hours, they must be giving the customer what they want, but in order to maximize profit, they also need to maximize the number of shooters. And in my opinion the kind of stages that maximize number or shooters are usually not that fun. That's why we do this, right? For fun!

Edited March 9, 2014 by Bryan 45

[Jesse Tischauser]

Ive been a big fan of USPSA pistol for many years but am not a fan of USPSA MG. As a MD/shooter of both USPSA and Wildcat MG I prefer the flexibility of the modified IMG rules. USPSA has been unsuccessful at growing/promoting MG at the local or regional level. The rule set has historically been too rigid and inflexible. While Im throwing rocks at my USPSA, Ill throw in my personal pet peeve. The USPSA MG and Handgun Nationals seem to have found a permanent home on the West coast.

On the subject of growth, it seems we are a victim of our own success. Our local matches have also grown to the point where further growth will affect the quality of the experience. Our Club like many others has worked for years to bring our numbers up and now we want to stop the growth??? Lets look for another solution. In a democratic society numbers matter. Local club matches are where most of us got our start. It still supports the most shooters and brings in most new shooters.

Back in the Day NTPS in TN ran a two day format for their local pistol matches. Some wanted to shoot on Saturday and others on Sunday so they compromised and shot both days. What a great solution. Twice the shooting. The format allowed NTPS to handle 100 shooters easily and shoot two guns each day! There are some problems to overcome. Youll likely need two sets of leaders working together. Im sure you have noticed that shooters are an independent bunch especially MGers. A two day format may not work in every local but it will for some. There must be other clubs out there using a two day format now. We are shooting a two day MG at our local club ORPCI in April. Well see what happens.

Major matches are a different animal. The Brownells Rockcastle ProAm had ~1200 hits for 500 slots. That kind of response is exciting but again I dont like turning perfectly good shooters away. We need everybody. Perhaps some of our more learned/experienced shooters can offer up solutions for continued growth. I dont have one Maybe we could just host more matches?????????

Jeremy Moore from The a Shooter Source runs a two day club match down in TX. You can shoot one day or shoot both days in different divisions. I haven't had the pleasure to attend but I hear it's awesome and is drawing close to it over 100 shooters per weekend. He charges $40 per shooter and I'm pretty sure he's not doing it to break even. With that kinda deal you can afford to pay for a bunch of targets and cool props and make damn sure your customers are happy with the match. I'm pretty sure Tarheel 3-gun is a similar business model. I think it's great! I wish I had a match like that nearby.

[kurtm]

You need at least two people who know how to score, two people who can run a timer, and at least 2 others that know enough to say hey take that to a safe area...no no ammo in the safe area, no don't unbag pointing it at your buddy...etc. if you don't have that things get hairy for the folks putting on the match, and brother we ain't even close as it is, now throw in the fact that those who do know this stuff like to shoot big matches as well and on big match day, if it coincides with local match day you are even more short handed. Its all great to say grow, grow, grow, but you need a core of 15-20 dedicated 3-gunners and the staff IMHO

Edited March 10, 2014 by kurtm

[Sgtsvi]

The NTMG matches are awesome and getting better each month. We are getting a large number new shooters each month that seem eager to learn. The best part is the family that owns the range collects the brass to sell and they feed all the shooters at club matches. We have had brisket, fajitas, and chili so far and they are good cooks. The food is better than many major matches I have paid to shoot. I tell all the new shooters, if they can shoot well at these matches, they can shoot anywhere. Last month we shot out to 700 yards for bonus.

[MarkCO]

I can not honestly answer the OP at this time, maybe in a few years. With some of the stuff I have seen from USPSA, less and less of a fan, not of the ruleset per se, but of how it is being run. 3GN has made changes to rules and other structure which to me, has been unprofessional, maybe learnign prcocess. Outlaw matches have some MDs who have many of these same issues, so it seems equal opportunity decline in many areas.

What we are experiencing is not only profit and TV time driven by many in the sport, but more of a general shift in the "customer" base. I'll not name names because it is not the person, but the personality that really matters. Most of the guys I "respect" in the sport from having watched, listened and learned from them, I would honestly leave my family with them, or give them the keys to my house, with no qualms. Some of the "new" types, not even close. When the average competitor starts to be so self consumed that the old "personality" of 3Gun is destroyed, the whole sport loses some appeal for me. I hear a company say on one hand they want to support the "amateurs" then see their product being sold by the pros from prize table pick-ups. I see guys with NO resume seeking sponsorships and guys with decent resumes switching sponsors so often it will be a good guess to see what shirt they wear next match.

Some of you will get this, and some will not, but that is okay.

A governing body based on principles: Love of the sport, Integrity and old school sportsmanship...I might be able to get behind that.

Like Kurt, said, I am not indicting any one person, nor Organization, but the direction the sport is headed in some areas does concern me. The "base" issue is only one of them.

[GM2B]

I'd like there to be an easily searchable listing of 3 gun clubs/matches like there is for USPSA or IDPA. The match announcements threads here and at 3gn/ar15.com are the closest thing available, but it's nice to be able to enter a location and see the closest matches. Other than that, I'm still fine with no governing body as long as individual matches clearly indicate which rules they will be using.

There is http://3gunnation.com/club_series/club_directory

I emailed 3GN about the other 5 or so additional local 3 gun matches that take place monthly in Florida and they never added them! So if you want to shoot 3 gun in FL let me know i can tell you where and when! They are only showing 3GN affiliated clubs not "Outlaw" local matches.

[TRUBL]

On the one hand....I really like what 3 gun nation is doing for the sport as far as getting new shooters exposed to this game. Been really great in that respect!! On the other hand.....no to have one governing body over the sport of 3 gun I would not go for.

Having the the 'IMGA' rules set up as a base to run a match is great!! Using the the safe rules from the USPSA as a base is great!! Having a not for profit club pay dues, send money in for each person that shoots a match.....for a loose covering? Not really for that.

Welcome to the age of internet.....you get the word out amongst friends and shooters in the state that you are having a 3 gun match.....and you will get people to attend. Do it right.......and they will return again and again and it will grow, do it wrong and it will die. What is the governing body going to do, either way to affect the outcome? Not much.

What you need is a ram rod....someone that is going to pick up the mantle and run with it. And that person is going to help....volunteers. I ran succesful matches for years with some of the best volunteers in MN, we had some of the matches around.....I was the leader....but it my friends, the volunteers that actually made it happen. The governing body did nothing to help it become a success......nor it say anything when we decided to drop it all together.

One thing about volunteers.....when I volunteer to do something, I do not expect to be compensated...EVER. It kind rubs me the wrong way that someone would come out to 'volunteer' expecting a handout, as far I'm concerned.....they are worthless and they can hit the bricks. On the other hand.....as a leader, I gave all I could to make sure that the guys that volunteered for me were compensated. AND....as the leader???EXPECT NOTHING.....if you aren't doing it for the love of the sport, if aren't doing it to give back to the sport.....maybe you should question why you are doing it.

I like the fact that for an outlaw 3 gun match, that if feel justified, can make sense of it....we can modify or massage a rule to fit a stage or maybe to comply with our clubs activies.....granted, A) it would be the same for everyone and the people would know of the rules well before coming to the match.

If the club is paying to have this governing body to cover them......look to see what you are getting in return......is it some prizes??? is that all?? Well....a club can maybe buy those prizes with what they are paying to the governing body......and with out any hassle.

I guess I don't see an up side to the question asked.

BTW......great comments from Mark P and Kurt M!!!

[Jesse Tischauser]

One thing about volunteers.....when I volunteer to do something, I do not expect to be compensated...EVER. It kind rubs me the wrong way that someone would come out to 'volunteer' expecting a handout, as far I'm concerned.....they are worthless and they can hit the bricks. On the other hand.....as a leader, I gave all I could to make sure that the guys that volunteered for me were compensated. AND....as the leader???EXPECT NOTHING.....if you aren't doing it for the love of the sport, if aren't doing it to give back to the sport.....maybe you should question why you are doing it.

We all love the sport but loving the sport doesn't pay for your day off work Friday to setup the local club match for Saturday. If you want help you gotta pay for it sometimes.

All the major 3 gun matches compensate the staff. Free rooms, free match fees, walk thru the regular or sometimes even the private RO prize table.

Are you suggesting everyone should volunteer to RO for nothing but the love of the sport?

[TRUBL]

One thing about volunteers.....when I volunteer to do something, I do not expect to be compensated...EVER. It kind rubs me the wrong way that someone would come out to 'volunteer' expecting a handout, as far I'm concerned.....they are worthless and they can hit the bricks. On the other hand.....as a leader, I gave all I could to make sure that the guys that volunteered for me were compensated. AND....as the leader???EXPECT NOTHING.....if you aren't doing it for the love of the sport, if aren't doing it to give back to the sport.....maybe you should question why you are doing it.

We all love the sport but loving the sport doesn't pay for your day off work Friday to setup the local club match for Saturday. If you want help you gotta pay for it sometimes.

All the major 3 gun matches compensate the staff. Free rooms, free match fees, walk thru the regular or sometimes even the private RO prize table.

Are you suggesting everyone should volunteer to RO for nothing but the love of the sport?

Jesse....you just don't get it. Run some matches, help set up some matches. If you feel that your time is too important, just shoot them. However....you really only have one side of the sport then. I've been in the sport for a number of years....I've run HUGE matches, I've volunteered for HUGE matches....was SUPER suprised at how much I've gotten for doing both.....but NEVER, not once did I EVER expect anything nor did I do a match or volunteer for personal gain. My reasoning for volunteering was for nothing but love or passion (for) of the sport.

Evidently, you only know part of the story.....and from that I see why you'd think that a governing body for 3 gun is the snizzle. Well....play the other sides.....then form your opinion, till then....you've been nothing but one sided. I've played the game from ALL angles, what I do....the volunteering, the shooting, the manufacturing......has always been because I have a passion for the sport.

So yes, Jesse.....look up the volunteer...as a noun: a person who FREELY offers to take part in an enterprise or undertake a task. In the case of a non profit club.....yes, if you aren't doing it for love of the sport and you want to be compensated.....you are in it for the wrong reason.

[Jesse Tischauser]

One thing about volunteers.....when I volunteer to do something, I do not expect to be compensated...EVER. It kind rubs me the wrong way that someone would come out to 'volunteer' expecting a handout, as far I'm concerned.....they are worthless and they can hit the bricks. On the other hand.....as a leader, I gave all I could to make sure that the guys that volunteered for me were compensated. AND....as the leader???EXPECT NOTHING.....if you aren't doing it for the love of the sport, if aren't doing it to give back to the sport.....maybe you should question why you are doing it.

We all love the sport but loving the sport doesn't pay for your day off work Friday to setup the local club match for Saturday. If you want help you gotta pay for it sometimes.

All the major 3 gun matches compensate the staff. Free rooms, free match fees, walk thru the regular or sometimes even the private RO prize table.

Are you suggesting everyone should volunteer to RO for nothing but the love of the sport?

Jesse....you just don't get it. Run some matches, help set up some matches. If you feel that your time is too important, just shoot them. However....you really only have one side of the sport then. I've been in the sport for a number of years....I've run HUGE matches, I've volunteered for HUGE matches....was SUPER suprised at how much I've gotten for doing both.....but NEVER, not once did I EVER expect anything nor did I do a match or volunteer for personal gain. My reasoning for volunteering was for nothing but love or passion (for) of the sport.

Evidently, you only know part of the story.....and from that I see why you'd think that a governing body for 3 gun is the snizzle. Well....play the other sides.....then form your opinion, till then....you've been nothing but one sided. I've played the game from ALL angles, what I do....the volunteering, the shooting, the manufacturing......has always been because I have a passion for the sport.

So yes, Jesse.....look up the volunteer...as a noun: a person who FREELY offers to take part in an enterprise or undertake a task. In the case of a non profit club.....yes, if you aren't doing it for love of the sport and you want to be compensated.....you are in it for the wrong reason.

Thanks for clarifying. I'm glad we can agree then that anyone that "volunteers" to RO or setup a match and takes a free match fee in return or a trip down the prize table is no longer a volunteer by definition.

[TRUBL]

Big difference between "freely" and "expecting".......so no.....you and I do not agree.

But.....that wasn't the point anyways, the point is......I see no up side that governing body for 3 gun from a club level standpoint or major match stand point. whether it be IDPA, USPSA, 3G Nation, etc, etc. For all the costs that could or would be incurred by the host club (especially a not for profit club) to be a member of the governing body there has to be an upside.....what it is? No one has even mentioned that part. And that if may also be the same for a Major Match as well. And that was the intent of my original post. To look at it just from a shooter standpoint is only part of the discusion.