2 Divisions for USPSA Revolver

[hopalong]

How much Interest out there for breaking out an OPEN REVOLVER Division?

Basically 8 rnd MAX and all else OPEN like the AUTOS (caliber for Major ect.)

and also Naturally KEEP the Standard revolver Division?

I know MV is quite against such a thing but if there is enough pressure, and He IS elected you know.

I still am trying to work up a Southern Championship Revolver only USPSA match but am thinking about including an OPEN division.

IF there is enough interest and we have a great turn out maybe( just maybe ) the powers that should be and the powers that be will get the hint....

Please Post comments but lets keep them within the forum guidelines.

SAM KEEN

[Airedale]

Sam,

I believe it's a great idea.

We are seeing more shooters pulling their wheelguns out and having fun.

The revolver crowd is a good bunch. An Open revolver division would be a great addition.

Dave

[Yardbird]

I would love to shoot open revolver. I certainly wish the division was available.

[Chuck D]

I'd be happy with an Open Revolver category.

You'll get TONS of flak by suggesting the creation of new divisions (and I have copies of both e-mail and good old hand written mail to prove it) and your absolutely correct in the fact that MV is dead set against it.

After the AW ban sunsetted, there was (and still is) a desire to eliminate L10 division because 80% of the country isn't "limited" by magazine capacity restrictions. Some would have us believe that there are too many divisions as it is now. Adding another one is an impossibility.

If you championed an Open Revolver category, you could use Open Division as a place to earn a classification and if you could muster enough participation ... match directors MIGHT even offer prizes for high Open Revolver division at major matches.

Maybe we could lure some of the ICORE guys this way?

[MikeFoley]

Sam I don't know if I am an outsider or insider on this one. I think you have a good idea here. I shoot revovler only as a second gun, or did until I blew mine up yesterday, but that is another story altogether that we should discuss offline until I get it resolved. I really enjoy it as a break from Limited, and the people who shoot it like you, Jerry, Jack, Dave, and others are all top notch people. It always has a place in my shooting, but never first place.

To address your question, I think there are a lot of revolver shooters who love this idea and shoot such a gun in ICORE, steel challenge, Bianchi, etc. I would support this division, but would never make a committment to shoot it. There are a lot of other guys who also wouldn't oppose it.

Here is where I see your challenge in getting this going:

#1 Out of the 2 state, 1 area, and nationals I went to, I saw you, Jerry, Jack, Bill, and a couple of other guys whose names escape me. There were only 17 competitors out of 497 at nationals and no more than 12 at any area match. Local matches have even fewer. Open revolver would dilute those numbers by dividing them into two divisions. I simply doesn't represent a large portion of the sport, maybe because it actually requires discipline and talent which I respect.

#2 Our ELECTED top brass has definite opinions about the addition of new divisions, (and about where 3Gun is going which is another all day conversation we could have). It is hard enough to get an unpopular opinion stated as it stands, and without support in numbers, and I mean people who are willing to take action, not just go along with it, the request falls on deaf ears.

What can we do to help? Where can we get volume support? I know some of the 3Gun crowd are doing their own matches. Rifle and shotgun only matches are popping up all over the calendar as are tactical, time plus, and paladin scored ones. This encourages the thought of your revolver only match with standard and open classes as a grass roots event if it is properly promoted. I would talk to S&W as a possible sponsor. I would get Jerry's input. I would talk to the organizers in some of the other sports. New ICORE clubs are forming. Some old pin shooters and silhoute guys might come out. Maybe an IDPA guy or two. Possibly someone who won't shoot revolver at a major USPSA match(like me and several other part time wheelgunners I know).

Sorry for the devil's advocate, I may be overstating the obvious, but this won't be easy. I will stand with you, but I will continue to shoot Limited at USPSA matches.

[wide45]

Why 8 round max? Open is open.

I don't favor another Revolver division. If you really want to shoot open revolver, do it in Open. If the numbers show up, you will get recognition.

[Matthew_Mink]

Hmmm, 20 or so people shot Revolver division this year at Nats, so we could possibly have 10 in each division next year at Nats. That's not good. What would be good if there were about 300 people shooting Revolver at Nats each year, then it would be a feasible idea, but we would have one more division.

[kimel]

And don't forget that >6 round revos can play in Production.

[spook]

With the 8 rounds per array in USPSA, I'd just compete with my 8 shooter in Open Division. I wish we had that rule in IPSC, but no....we have 9 rounds per array

[Flexmoney]

With the 8 rounds per array in USPSA, I'd just compete with my 8 shooter in Open Division. I wish we had that rule in IPSC, but no....we have 9 rounds per array

Sad to say...we were saddled with the 9 round per array rule here too, I think (with the new rule book).

I don't mind if USPSA and IPSC want to "get the rule books closer together", but I would like to see them pick the best option.

[spook]

Flex, oh yeah I forgot. I agree. 8 rounds was clearly the better option

[Bubber]

Sam, I would favor a Open Revo Division. I would shooot ICORE every week if there was a match around but USPSA is the game in town. I travel 300 miles round trip once a month to shoot an ICORE match in Northwest Arkansas because it is ICORE and because of the competition there in Revolver. Also Dr. Evil (Mike Lutrell) sets up some chalenging stages.

Wide 45. I have been shooting my open revo in open since I moved to Oklahoma in 2002. But there is no way that anybody knows it is a revo except fro the people in my squad. The way the stages are set up with 9 and 10 hits available from each shooting position it does not lend well for comparisons. I have switched to a 625 so that I can be placed in a Revo Division and thus get the revo numbers up.

In the local Tuesday night Steel Match in Mesa they would recognise my Revo as a revo and I could be caompared against other revo shooters there but alas it is now 1100 miles away.

Just on a side not Oil Capitol Practical Shooters, in Tulsa, will be having an ICORE match this Sunday (Dec 5). I will see if it would be feasible to have it semi monthly or even monthly. I promised myself I would not start another match but if I want to shoot Open Revo I guess I'll have to do some work.

And also Sam I am still interested in your Revolver championships next spring. In Duncan they have a Revolver State Championships where I was able to shoot my Open Revo. But the USPSA would only recognize the 6 shot revos, still had fun though. Well that is about enough from me sorry for the long rant. rdd

[SmittyFL]

Sam,

I love revolver, but I just don't think we have the support for it. I'm one of those "please, not another division" people. If it were up to me we would go back to just Open and Limited. (but we won't go there) When I started shooting we had a group of guys we called the Secret Revolver Society, we would call each other the night before a monthly match and all shoot revolver in Limited division. It was a blast and we had a lot of fun with it.

If there were more folks shooting revolver at big matches I would shoot it once in a while. There are probably a lot of folks like me, the ol' can't get a job without experience and can't get experience without a job thing. I wish to hell we could get ICORE down in this neck of the woods, I'd for sure skip a USPSA monthly match to shoot ICORE. And if you get your match going, I'll do anything I can to make it.

We barely get anyone shooting revolver at majors now, another division is only going to divide that up further. I wish we had 100 revo shooters at the Nat's but until we do, I don't think another division is a good idea. They should let you shoot an Open revolver in L-10 division.

My Opinion of course.

Smitty

[Carmoney]

ICORE seems to be shot only in certain areas of the country--nothing within a half-day's drive for me (Iowa), that's for sure.

I think in order to get more revolver shooters cranking along in USPSA competition, we need (1) the guys at USPSA to make sure that the revolver division is not short-shrift when it comes to prizes, plaques, etc., at major matches, and (2) much better support from the industry.

Mike

[JohnRodriguez]

Sam, I'm amazed that you even got this topic this far, but you might want to be careful and not badmouth the powers that be, or you might get talked down to like I did.

I got my B open card with a open revo, like i've always told stage designers, give me enough distance to reload between boxes and I can keep up with the bottom feeders.

Ol' bubber is like some of the really good kickboxers I knew 10 years ago, real nice and polite, get them in a ring and they will turn into a animal on you. Bubber can woop it up on you with a wheel gun.

As far as the more than 8 shots, their is only one 10 shot revo out there that I know of and it is a .32 H&R magnum, so it's not IPSC legal. The really nice thing about a open revo, and six shoot is that you always take all your brass home.

The one thing that would help the open revo cause would be changing the scoreing system from HF to time+, everyone but the ICORE and IPDA guys would have to learn how to shoot A's and not spray and pray.

Hopefully this would be kicked out of the forum

John

[shred]

FWIW about 8% of Steel Challenge entries (22) were in Revolver-Open in 2004. Slightly more than were in Revolver-Iron (and 8-shots can play in Revo-Iron to boot)

In high-round-count IPSC matches, it takes a "special" sort of person to play the revolver game, let alone open Revo, so the numbers will probably never be there.

But.. some people have been clamoring for Open-10 (to the same deafness from on-high). Would that be so bad with a revo? Maybe we should lobby for Open-8 instead

[rhino]

I still think Open-10 is a great idea. It wouldn't be ideal for Open Division revolvers, but it would certainly be a better fit for them than the existing Open Division.

[SmittyFL]

Military Intelligence

Microsoft Works

Elevated Subway

Honest Politician

Crash Landing

Customer Service

President Kerry

Open - 10

[Precision40]

I agree, it would be nice to have an Open Revolver Division. But there is simply not enough interest in revolver as it currently stands, so financially there is no way USPSA would create a new division just for revolver. Maybe if we could get alot of the ICORE guys to switch over, it might work. But it's unlikely.

M. Voigt has made it clear that if you have an idea, send it to your A.D. At least you could have your opinion heard.

[TSOL1]

I believe you would get a lot of icore guys shooting open rev if it was an option.

Just my two cents.

[hopalong]

Well it is quite evident that there is some interest.....

Let me add a tid bit here too.

I understand that some people have not as good eyes as others and thus shoot OPEN to use the red Dot (Bubber is one of these I think)

I myself have to wear glasses/contacts to see anything past arms length.

If at all possible I will Not be shooting anything OPEN as I am slightly old fasioned (except the rifle ) and think pistols should be shot with Iron sights

Now, I suggested the Open division hoping to draw more of the ICORE shooters into USPSA, yes they are similar but different but they are both "action" type sports.

John R, thanks for the note about 10 shot guns, that is what I thought and thus why I suggested 8 rounds max. As far as the thing getting kicked off the forum as long as we keep it civil we should be good to go as we are all adults (or supposed to be) and should be able to get and give ideas, good and bad. I Really doubt scoring will ever change as that is what USPSA is about (and IPSC) And I am not worried about the powers that Be at USPSA or anywhere else as I am only a Little fish.

It is IMHO that USPSA is like (or at least the leadership that we have now) SmittyFL they wish the only two divisions out there was OPEN and Limited,

But there is the other 3 Divisions that are recognized and have to be dealt with.

I think (Opinion again) that most folks that might shoot revolver (open or standard) do not because of the stage designs that we see out there now (Smitty is that one of the reasons you shoot L instead of R ? )

Smitty by the way is pretty good with the flat gun (OK he's almost GOOD)

No he's Damn good and I enjoyed watching him shoot at the Nationals last Sept.

Another reason I suggested open R is there are some folks out there that enjoy shooting revolvers but have this nice 627 that they can't use to its full capability due to the rules and thus might start if they had a way.

I know as well as everyone else that Autos are the King and will always be I have no problem with that as I have half a dozen of them and shoot them too.

Carmoney had a point there too, if the other divisions (note I didn't say just revolver) were promoted as much as OPEN and Limited there would be more participation.

I know that when I go to the Nationals or any where else I might run into Jerry Miculek that he is supposed to beat me like a drum... but I still go and will go.

The same goes with an Auto shooter and TGO so I really doubt the intimidation factor has nothing to do with it.

Back on stage design, At this years Nationals the stages were THE most revolver friendly as any match I have been to yet, including IDPA sectionals, state matches ect. I might not have done as well as I could have, but that was MY fault not because the stages were too hard to figure out. The new 9 shots per array rule may or may not help as it is a number divisible by 3 and really compasionate stage designers cloud make it easier to shoot with even a 6 gun.

P40 I agree, it is not Finacially feesible but if it was offered maybe say 1 year as a trial, maybe the ICORE guys we mention would shoot and then we could see how much interest was really out there. and from what some of what I have heard MV does and doesn't listen to the A/Ds (kind of hears what he wants to type thing

Shred, I don't think it takes anything "special" all you have to do is pick a gun, practice, and go shoot, NO DIFFERENT than shooting L-O-L-10 or P

Smitty, biggest reason so few revolvers at Majors is same as P and L-10 (IMHO) not enough promotion and reason to shoot them (yes I opend the door on that one) even at the section matches the 3 divisions seem to be a "Oh yeah and some folks shot L-10, P and R and It all comes trickling down, if it was promoted better at the top it would get better at the smaller matches.

Fomiester, was closest I think. Needs work

Matt, GOOD shooting at E.TX but it seems to me that there was not but around 50 production shooters at Nats and besides AUTOs HAVE an OPEN division to shoot in.

The Ideas so far seem to all be the same generally, I will see what I can stir up as far as the REVOLVER only match but you had better bring a bunch of bullets to shoot......

Keep the comments and suggestions coming, I will compile it all and send a letter and maybe a phone call or two to at least MY A/D.

I really doubt there will be any chance of an OPEN REVOLVER division, or much more participation in standard revolver as Fomiester says but is it worth a try to see how much interest is out there and could it help USPSA, I think so, it may be what REVOLVER division really needed in the first place.

Thanks for the comments, and WIDE45 thank you too all comments are noted.

SAM KEEN / HOPALONG

[Gary Stevens]

While not totally addressing your wishes, I floated an idea to the BOD and MV about creating "Optional Divisions", similar to the Manual Operated Rifle Division we have in 3-Gun. Manual Operated Rifle Division is not mandatory in a 3 gun, but is optional if they want to use it.

My concept was to create some "Optional" handgun divisions, such as Open Revolver, Open 10, Limited 9 (for the good old single stack 45 guys), etc. My thought was to allow Match Directors to use these optional divisions if there were a demand in their local area for them, but not mandate them on anyone else. This way we would have a sounding board to find out if there is interest in any particular division without creating a pig in a poke.

To say that this concept met with a less than warm reception would be a understatement

Gary

[SmittyFL]

Sam,

It's not the stage design. I don't really think that matters much, you can have a good stage with three targets total or 20 targets as long as you have a good stage designer. Plus it's wheel gun against wheel gun, so that doesn't factor in for me at all.

To me (and this is only my stance) I want to go up against the best and most competition possible. As it is now, that's either Open or Limited. I know if Jerry is there I would be going up against the best, but it's not the same as having close to 100 folks in your division. I'm sure you had a good time at the nationals, but wouldn't it have been more fun if there were 60 revolver shooters? I like shooting it at monthly matches every once in a while just to see how many square guns I can beat, but I feel if I'm going to spend the time and money to go to a big match, I want to shoot against a bunch of folks in the division.

That's what I meant in my earlier post, there are probably a bunch of guys like me. That would shoot revolver if there were more revolver shooters but won't because there aren't many revolver shooters.

I feel the same about L-10. I would love to shoot my single stack against like guns. And I would shoot it more if L-10 were Single Stack only. I just don't see the point of taking a full house limited gun and downloading it to get in a smaller division. If you've got the equipment, go up against the best. (don't start any flames, it's just my worthless opinion)

[MikeFoley]

Gary, great concept, and thanks for admitting that the reception isn't always warm between the AD and the Pres. You are always forward and honest, and that is always a good thing, except to those that are afraid of it for whatever reason.

Sam, this may be the vehicle to introducing new divisions accross the country so they can grow in numbers and become divisions at larger events. I can easily see MDs using them in pre-registration numbers to determine prize allocation, etc.

Smitty, you are a lot more into multiple divisions than you think. Like me, you have all the guns for most divisions and like to shoot them. Like me, you shoot Limited most of the time because you will shoot it at larger matches, and get to compete with nearly half of the shooters there. What we are doing may perpetuate the cycle somewhat, and I anticipate there are many others like us. I only shoot these guns once in a while and pick up my Limited gun every time I go to a match where my performance is measureable. It is the same at local matches, I shoot where the competition, practice, and learning are one. I cannot say I would shoot the other divisions if all things were equal, but certainly think they have a place in the sport, and add class to it in a lot of ways. Just look at production, millions of people have a production gun at home, and there are world class guys like Sevigny shooting it very well. You and I cannot get the hammer to follow on a Glock or revolver I bet.

[Carmoney]

Hey Sam, tell you what--you get together a nice revolver-only 2-day match down there, with an unofficial open division, as well as a "regular" USPSA revolver division, and make it so we can all shoot both divisions, maybe a man-on-man shoot-off to wrap up the match, some nice plaques (paid out by class on the regular revo and Lewis on the open), and I'll go get a C-More and put it on my 627, and Young Sam and I will drive (or fly) down there and shoot it with you southerners, and maybe even bring along a few other farm-boy revolver shooters with us from the midwest!

Yee-ha!!

Carmoney