How Hard Should Club Level Matches Be?

[mjl]

I have been doing our monthly club matches for about 3 years now. We now have 6 stages, which includes one classifier. Sometimes I will adopt stages from upcoming nearby Area/State matches as practice. I don't see the stages we do as being too hard, as typically there are not many tight shots, nor are there many long shots. If one was to go slow enough, even a relatively new shooter, they could get their points.

We do run a plate rack every month and about 20-30 poppers, maybe one or two swingers, and maybe a clamshell; I use the Texas Star less than once a quarter.

Does anyone worry about losing new shooters to the sport due to stage design? I'm thinking when a new shooters sees some of our top shooters (GMs to As) blazing through a stage, they get discouraged because they can not go that fast (there are a lot of golf analogies out there), but that is going to be true regardless of the stage design.

[Dr. Phil]

It might not be the exact same thing, but, I run a weekly shoot here at my house. Mostly steel. I use texas stars, sometimes double stars, and Polish Plate Racks quite often. Once a month, I do a "carry gun nite" which is as the name implies. That night is realistic scenarios I usually get from the news, magazines, etc.. I also always do a man-on-man every week. My guests are everywhere form newish shooters to well experienced folks. (IPSC, steel, etc matchs) I always ask if the courses are hard enough, too hard, etc. They always say they like the challenge, and will shoot anything i can come up with. Never any complaints! I even used a swinging Texas star for a couple weeks. They loved it! I think if the stages are fun, and challenging, yet, the "compeditive" thing is reigned in, people can really have a great time. Incidentally, my Monday Nite thing is free. No cost, no prizes, no classification on guns (ie: run what you brung). People want to have fun. We try to leave the "hero" stuff at the real matches. IMHO.

[vluc]

If you build only for new shooters, you lose established shooters who will vote with their feet and find matches more challenging. Too hard and no new people show up, so you have to find that right blend/mix to satisfy both.

Identify the new shooters and talk to them after or better still during the match, get their feedback, see what they think. Best to get it from the source than here where you find far more established shooters. Get to know your clientele.

Edited September 20, 2013 by vluc

[Rob Tompkins]

I'm the MD for a local IDPA match and have the same concern. I try to make the stages as hard as you'd see at a major match. I work to make options so hot shots can take risks for big gains (or loses) and newer shooters can go low risk but slower. When we have really new shooters I make point they should focus on hits and safety and speed will come.

[OUshooter]

I've designed stages for our local match. instead of making "a" stage hard I will make "parts" of a stage hard. I find that shooters prefer a mixed bag of shots within a stage instead of stages that should be marked with a green blue or black Diamond. Hoser stage with tight danger targets at start and finish for example.

Like stated above finding that balance is the key to keep both ends of the skill level spectrum coming back.

[B_Seehawer]

Our indoor club used to have a GM and M building the stages.

Our club now has multiple M's, A's, and a contending GM to show for it.

Even if the stages are easy (suck), you still gotta beat everybody else.

[Sarge]

I would rather they be tough enough to keep the seasoned shooters interested as opposed to always catering to new shooters. New shooters will never improve and the better shooters won't come back if you make things too simple.

[steel1212]

I'm gonna disagree with Kevin just a bit. I want the match to be fun for everybody. If the new shooter can't get through the match because of the 25 yard plates and stars or every stage has NS and hard cover all over it I think that's a little much. BITB comes to mind. I was upset at how hard that ended up being when the stages went up. Now I'm not saying every thing should be hose fest either. Create a fun match and your top guys will just shoot it faster if it's not covered in NS.

In the end just make it fun not a kick in the junk :-)

Edited September 21, 2013 by steel1212

[Tuflehundon]

Another thing you can do is set up the stages so that you can run them more than 1 way. Club I go to does that a lot. 1 way to run the stage is slower, but is easier for the newer shooter. For those willing to take the risk of tight no shoots or longer shots, you can run the stage a 2nd more difficult, but much faster way just from a differnt angle.

We has a stage a month or so ago were the newer shooters started at the front of the bay and were shooting steel straight on with no other targets around them, but then had to move a ways back to finish the stage and shoot the other targets. The more experienced shooter could start farther back in the bay and engage the steel at a slight angle, and there were no shoot targets behind them, so you took a risk if you missed.

[Sarge]

I'm gonna disagree with Kevin just a bit. I want the match to be fun for everybody. If the new shooter can't get through the match because of the 25 yard plates and stars or every stage has NS and hard cover all over it I think that's a little much. BITB comes to mind. I was upset at how hard that ended up being when the stages went up. Now I'm not saying every thing should be hose fest either. Create a fun match and your top guys will just shoot it faster if it's not covered in NS.

In the end just make it fun not a kick in the junk :-)

Corey you are right on. I'm not talking every stage and NOBODY likes long range poppers. But I have had it mentioned to me that putting retrograde movement and targets close to the 180 are problematic for new shooters. I think they should be problematic for new shooters. We can't just have targets right in front of us all the time. My point was, we can't just put 10 targets out there that 5-6 steps will cover just to keep the new guys happy. Lately my stage design crew has been purely going with loaded and holstered starts with hands at sides and I would prefer some unloaded starts, ammo on barrel, surrender, etc.... to keep it challenging. Last month we had a dumpster that we shot from. You had to sit in a chair and open the lid to shoot. When it was all said and done it was nothing more than a seated start. But the added "perceived" difficulty made it fun for most but a few new shooters thought it was a little much.

I agree with you, make it fun.

[Nik Habicht]

NOBODY likes long range poppers.

I do! Free points, and hit factor improvement, over folks who never practice beyond ten yards.....

[mjl]

I appreciate the thoughts and comments. I will keep working to get feedback from the new shooters. Our stages typically have numerous ways of shooting them. The same stage that could be easy to shoot from, say, 4 or 5 positions, could be difficult if you just want to do it from 2 positions. However, it seems that that sometimes adds a level of confusion to new shooters. I also see a problem with new shooters wanting to compete with everybody else, rather than just focusing on their own skills and progress. Of course hampering their progress is the issue that few beginning shooters practice and progress.

[vluc]

I appreciate the thoughts and comments. I will keep working to get feedback from the new shooters. Our stages typically have numerous ways of shooting them. The same stage that could be easy to shoot from, say, 4 or 5 positions, could be difficult if you just want to do it from 2 positions. However, it seems that that sometimes adds a level of confusion to new shooters. I also see a problem with new shooters wanting to compete with everybody else, rather than just focusing on their own skills and progress. Of course hampering their progress is the issue that few beginning shooters practice and progress.

Drift, but this is where you identify them and put them with established, better shooters - shooters who can explain this very thing to them. This or have a new competitor orientation and review it with them.

Got to be proactive. Explain things to them, have them running with better shooters who are willing to mentor them (which should be all of us, frankly). Gets them more interested and understanding - gets them helping setup stages and matches because that is a great place to teach them things. Next thing you know you now have a fw more helpers come match day. And I've yet to see an MD turn down match help!

[Chris iliff]

Never got the question? I don't understand the premise I guess. Is it saying that matches above club level are really hard? I think the better question is "What is a good stage?"

Once you establish that, then just build good stages. Doesn't matter what level the match is, right? Well that's my thinking.

[gacattack]

Does anyone worry about losing new shooters to the sport due to stage design? I'm thinking when a new shooters sees some of our top shooters (GMs to As) blazing through a stage, they get discouraged because they can not go that fast (there are a lot of golf analogies out there), but that is going to be true regardless of the stage design.

I'm all for having fun, but it's also a competitive activity. People who enjoy competing tend to enjoy difficult challenges. I'm in favor of variety, so as long as the match isn't completely composed of far partials, then rock and rock!

Ultimately, I believe that new shooters stick around because of the others shooters at your club. Be inviting, be helpful, and don't be a dick to new shooters. 90% of their time during a match is not during shooting.

[Tuflehundon]

Does anyone worry about losing new shooters to the sport due to stage design? I'm thinking when a new shooters sees some of our top shooters (GMs to As) blazing through a stage, they get discouraged because they can not go that fast (there are a lot of golf analogies out there), but that is going to be true regardless of the stage design.

I'm all for having fun, but it's also a competitive activity. People who enjoy competing tend to enjoy difficult challenges. I'm in favor of variety, so as long as the match isn't completely composed of far partials, then rock and rock!

Ultimately, I believe that new shooters stick around because of the others shooters at your club. Be inviting, be helpful, and don't be a dick to new shooters. 90% of their time during a match is not during shooting.

I'd agree with this. I have helped build a few stages and love putting in a plate rack. I will hear a few people complain, but they always know when I help build a stage. I learned a lot about shooting by practicing the plate rack. Recently shot a texas star for the 1st time, and a weighted texas star. They were hard the 1st time, but I liked that it was hard and that I was learning something new.

[motosapiens]

When I went to my first USPSA matches, and was really really slow, I was not at all discouraged by the faster shooters. I just wanted to be like them.

I don't think there is anything wrong with a couple long-distance poppers, but it wouldn't be much fun for newer shooters to have 12 of them on a single stage. I think people will just suck up mikes on paper targets, and hardcover hits and no-shoots (within reason), but the tendency with steel is to keep shooting at it until you hit it, which could be a long time if there are several difficult shots.

Tufflehundon's suggestion is also a good one, design the difficult shots so there is also a way to take them more easily, even if it involves running a long ways and shooting through a low-port that is closer.

At any rate, if someone is just not ready for a normal uspsa stage, and would be discouraged by it, we also have IDPA matches at our range and another nearby range. Those matches may be more appropriate in some instances. That's how I started, and after 5-6 idpa matches, and starting to get into the top third of the field, I tried out uspsa and went straight to the back of the pack again, lol.

Edited October 22, 2013 by motosapiens

[AICS308]

Kind of strange I was just thinking about this last weekend after shooting the ORSAAP match. I've been shooting USPSA for about 18 years off and on. I don't think too much about the match being too difficult but it must be FUN. I shot in a squad of mostly older guys, myself included. We had some good stages that were a challenge. The only issue was way too much steel. I think we had steel on every stage. This is purely personal opinion and not being critical.

I bring this up only because after shooting with new shooters and less experienced shooters I saw a lot of faces that we're not having much fun blazing away at the steel. I know, I know you have to shoot everything to get better but it has to be fun. The only way to increase attendance with new shooters is for them to be challenged but not beaten down.

Again this is personal preference but a good stage breakdown for a local match should be a balance of a variety. For example:

1 classifier

3 run and gun paper stages, these are fun for every level of shooter

2 stages with a mix of paper, poppers, and steel.

In my experience if a shooter has 3 stages that are fun whether they shoot good or bad they will be back for more. If a club is to grow it is imperative that new shooters return and become regulars.

[blaster113]

I think you have to make the stages challenging enough for the average B class shooter. The C/D shooters have to practice more if they found it a little hard, and the higher classed guys just have to shoot it that much faster. I model most of my stages after what I've encountered at Area matches and the past few Nationals and go from there. Stuff like shooting positions, target arrays, target presentations, movers, etc. I make my stages challenging but not ridiculous. I've been told that if half the shooters zero the stage then it was too hard. If they didn't zero the stage but thought it was a little hard then some practicing is in order. If the stages are easy for the new guys then how will they get better?

the shooters in our small local club have a wide range of experience and skill levels, from experienced Masters down to brand new shooters.

[Graham Smith]

the shooters in our small local club have a wide range of experience and skill levels, from experienced Masters down to brand new shooters.

Same here and what we try and do is balance things. It's not about hard vs easy, it's about degree of challenge. A COF can be both simple and challenging.

You can create hoser stages that pose the challenge of "how fast do you dare go?" by simply sticking in a few tight shots between no-shoots or using hard cover areas.

You can create stages that mix slower shots (longer or tighter) with hoser shots. That forces the faster shooters to keep altering their pace.

You can create situations where shots can be taken from multiple locations, close and far. Shooters have to choose to get the target from 50' or take the extra steps to move to where it's only 30'

There are a lot of things like this you can do that challenge the top shooters and still allow the lower shooters shots that they can make.

If you put a 8" plate at 45', you have just challenged the top shooters but you've also given the lower shooters something that they are going to have a lot of trouble with. If they have to stand there and take 4-5 shots to hit something, they are going to get frustrated. That's no fun and it slows the match down.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Graham Smith

[CHA-LEE]

When I create stages I try to create shooting challenges that are very "doable" for new shooters or lower level skilled shooters, but also add variables that test the higher skilled shooters. For example, an array of fully open targets set at 15 yards that are completely visible/available from one shooting position to the next. The new or lower skilled shooters can successfully engage these targets from a solid standing position. The higher skilled shooters can shoot it on the move if they want. Every skill level shooter is happy with a stage setup like this. Adding the ability to engage some targets on the move help in making it a fun shooting challenge for all skill levels.

The thing you need to do is review the results from the match. If you have a stage were 40 - 50% of the shooters have shooting penalties, then its probably too hard of a shooting challenge for the average skill level attending the match. But keep in mind that the average skill set of the attending shooters does change over time. If you properly produce shooting challenges that gently force shooters to actually shoot better then the average skill level will raise over time. Then you need to adjust the shooting challenge difficulty as needed to keep pace with the improving skill of the shooters. Realistic shooting challenges also need to be used or you will be doomed before you start. So leave the 25+ yard head shots out unless you want a bunch of disgruntled shooters.

As a match director myself, I always try to have a good mix of stages with shooting challenges that test a wide range of skills (Shooting, Moving, Gun Handling, etc). I really try to avoid using "Follow the Leader" type of stages where everyone is basically forced to shoot the stage the same way with a bunch of run/stop/shoot/run/stop/shoot positions. USPSA is suppose to be based on Freestyle shooting where the shooter is able to formulate their own plan for tackling the stage. When I setup a stage that enables many different valid stage plans to be used that is a huge WIN for me as I know it is fun for the competitors to figure out the best plan as well as shoot.

In the end its all about making the match fun and challenging. If you create a stage that is so difficult that competitors actually fear shooting it because they know they can't make the shots required, that is a huge failure from a match management perspective. You have to think of a match as an entertainment item that customer want to buy, because its fun and challenging. Nobody likes to be forced into a "No Win" scenario type of stage where who wins the stage is who has the least amount of shooting penalties.

[EkuJustice]

I think the shots need to be doable for the shooters at the match. You can also have stages where there are more ways to shoot them and you have basically a safe way to shoot them where its pretty straight forward and easy but slower with more shooting locations. Then have a more "pro" way it can be shot where positons can be eliminated but the shots are farther, tighter etc in order to do so, If you have every shooter regardless of division and skill level shooting the same way then its not really a good stage. Let the shooter shoot it how they want and don't try and force everyone to shoot it the same way.

[ummm]

I'm a newer shooter (only B class, shooting 18 months now), and I very much prefer challenging stages. Even though I'm a beginner, I have voted with my feet and don't attend a local match which consistently features easy stages.

Bring out 50 yard poppers and double texas stars and prone polish plate racks and no-shoot nightmares. I find that "hard" is much more engaging, and therefore more enjoyable, than "easy". I'm not sure "too hard" is even possible. So what if I miss, or have a slow time? As long as it's fun!

"Smooth seas do not make skillful sailors"

--African proverb

Edited October 29, 2013 by ummm

[cnote]

I think the shots need to be doable for the shooters at the match. You can also have stages where there are more ways to shoot them and you have basically a safe way to shoot them where its pretty straight forward and easy but slower with more shooting locations. Then have a more "pro" way it can be shot where positons can be eliminated but the shots are farther, tighter etc in order to do so, If you have every shooter regardless of division and skill level shooting the same way then its not really a good stage. Let the shooter shoot it how they want and don't try and force everyone to shoot it the same way.

+1

Spent some time talking with the team who took the stages for the prod nationals and actually set them up. He stated that they attempted to make the stages (shot distances- angles, etc ) challenging enough for a mid level B shooter to be torn between posting up or shooting on the move. He stated the GM's will shoot it like a GM, the C/D shooter will slow down, and competators will learn what they really are capable of. Worked the match and saw a lot of attempts at hosing targets go down the drain, and others doing the same by going too slow.

[bigkyle72]

Im pretty new to the sport and I say make it hard! Never going to get better if I'm not pushed. What is the worse that can happen? It takes a forever to clear a stage? No big deal, make it hard. Push shooters.

Edited November 9, 2013 by bigkyle72