STI Texas Multigun Championship April 11-13, 2014

[rugerp89ipsc]

We are all pussyfooting around the same issues and rumors.

I watched stages on Thursday incognito (no jersey or shooting paraphernalia) and watched ROs shoot stage 1, 12, and watched a 3GN pro shooter to thru the shoot house stage.

Stage 1....the ROs watched a fellow RO shoot the static steel and poppers to the side with the stage pistol, some tried the plate rack too. I overheard "that's how you gotta shoot it, shoot the poppers and you don't have to reload your shotgun". When we shot it, the plate rack appeared to be at a slightly different angle (perspective) but we were told we could ONLY engage the static steel with the stage gun.

Stage 12....the exact issue was observed, and I was later told by an RO that I will not name, that all you have to do is bump your handguard an inch either way for a new position.

I watched the Pro Series shooter shoot the shoot house stage twice....because the ROs never mentioned the fault line. Rumor has it, the ROs and those that shot with them may not have had to observe the fault line. Which would allow them to use a single shooting window and would explain how their stage times were superhuman.

I've heard additional rumors about steel being added to the long range stage, RO's and those shooting with RO's getting to RO for each other in a group of two buddies as they ran thru stages. I can't confirm those like what I personally witnessed and cannot give them weight until someone does......but some people either shot the match of their lives, or took a gun off the table in exchange for their soul!

There were some great ROs there who I want to, again, thank for their hard work and thankless efforts. I'll be an RO twice this year and hope I do a job that resembles what you did! Unfortunately there was an RO or two with a power trip and no working knowledge of major match rules or the match rules from the match they were an RO for. If you are suffering from Napoleon Syndrome, don't be an RO.....your help isn't wanted! To the rest of the ROs, I hope you were not judged by others due to the actions of the few.

I'm fully aware my post here may ruffle some feathers....the people who matter know me and what I'm about, and if I ruffled your feathers....you aren't one of them!

So stage 1 was tossed and did not effect scores. While tossing a stage is stinks, especially for the ROs who ran it all week in the sun, it happens and has happened on more than one major match I have shot. It's much better to not have to toss a stage, but by tossing the stage, these issues are officially addressed and dealth with.

Stage 12, name names or atleast email staff with the name so that issue can be addressed. Being told in person at the match at the time it occurred probably would have been the most effective and best way to deal with this issue. One of the hardest aspects to a major match is finding enough people to staff it and them being up to speed to run it. It is difficult with a large match to monitor and QA every RO through the whole match. Obviously some ROs are stronger than others and they get put on point and are part of a chain of command, so to speak. But if a competitor does not approach the match directors or range officers with an issue at the time it occurs, it is a lot harder to police and correct. I am not saying it's easy to complain over the internet, but it sure is a lot harder to address that issue after the match over the internet.

Which Pro series shooter did you watch run the shoot house 2x. I ran a large number of ROs through the house and all of them observed the charge line with was painted brightly and installed Wednesday morning I believe. What's the super human time?

Again, rumors on the long range, who said what? Who was witness. Also, what is the minimum number of ROs allowed to run each other through a stage. Numerous ROs had to run the whole match in a day, others due to work or child care had to work in during match day. The range is not own by the club and we do not have free reign over the facility. There are a limited number of hours to shoot ROs through the match. What is the correct SOP (standard operating procedure) for getting all the ROs through the match? There were several ROs that did not even get to shoot the match, but just worked it. I appreciate your postive notes, but the complaints would be more helpful with so more suggestions on what you deem was the correct way to do things.

No worries on ruffling feathers, hopefully you see this as a positive attempt to engage your concerns while looking for more insight.

[abn-rgr]

What I saw on stage 12 was Friday. I hadnt shot the stage yet. When I received the brief on Saturday is when I realized there was something wrong. If you want names it was the guy in the green RO shirt. I'm sorry I didn't remember the names of 40 something RO's. I only personally know about 5 of them. When you cut a bunch of range officers loose and tell them to shoot a stage based on the stage description there is way too much open to interpretation. The match director or range master should be briefing it the same to all range officers. I personally am not saying that any range officers cheated. But when you put on the stage description to change positions I would game it and only move an inch as well. Thats all I will speak on as that is what I personally witnessed. Before someone starts the crap about try running a match if you think its so easy, been there done that.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

I'm not gonna toss a pro under the bus, but a green shirt RO on Thursday around 3:00 told me he was getting a reshoot for going over the fault line in the house. Either he got preferential treatment where I would have gotten procedurals, or the RO never told him about a fault line.

As to naming names on stage 12. We sat and watched the RO's shooting it, and heard first hand from an FO (that I told I wouldn't throw under the bus) that all you have to do is move 1"......but when we got there, the rules were different.

I'm also not saying ROs cheated.....but I've designed stages and helped run smaller matches. When I design a stage and am shooting the stage I designed at the end of the day, it's pretty easy to tell when something has happened, because I get there and we have to run it how the first squad ran it, and how everyone has run it all day. What I AM saying, is that the match we shot, and at least two stages I watched of the match ROs shot was different.

I hope to see a positive change and a concerted effort towards that change.

As for approaching the MD about issues at the match, here is what I'll tell you. From what I've heard of the MD while there, I'd expect then to "fine a reason" to DQ me once I became a nuissance. Then seeing an RO act like he's a buddy to a shooter he threatens to DQ and tels him to go take the ammo off his belt in order to oil his rifle at the safe table....well, it looks like reasons can be found if we don't bring a range lawyer with us. I'm not going to get tossed from the match for something stupid because now the MD has it out for me.

I posted what I physically witnessed and what rumors I heard. I cannot account for the rumors, tho I will not deny that they are present and give the chance to dispel them. I will account for what I saw tho! Since the only people around when I watched stage one were ROs, I'd ask the people present when the RO fell and his gun came out and got DQd, because the ROs in the chairs were the ones talking about taking multiple steel with the prop pistol: they did not convenienvy have their names printed on their provided RO shirts and I did not go around asking them all for their names as I did not expect for their to be issues bad enough that I would need to have their names on record later.

[latech15]

I think that most of the changes to the stages have been addressed except a few.

Stage 2 - the stage briefing said that the small steel plates on the left side of the berm had to be engaged through the ports. There was no specification that they be addressed through the back two ports and not the same port that you started out with your rifle on. I walked the stage on Thursday after watching RO's shoot pistol at that steel through the same port as the rifle. It was possible and even allowed per the WSB. By the time that I got to the stage on Friday, the farthest steel to the left had been moved further left so that you couldn't see it through that port and the RO told me that I couldn't shoot the steel through that port. That cost probably 5 seconds.

Stage 3 - "Rumor" - I was told that more no shoots were added in front of all that steel on Friday than when the RO's shot.

Stage 5 - "Rumor" - I was told that there were 10 of those head shot targets back there for the RO's (per the WSB) and there were only 9 back there when I shot it. There was still an extra target stand back there with broken off sticks still standing in it.

Stage 9 - I talked to a person who shot through with the RO's who told me that they both had no knowledge of a forward charge line in the shoot house, and that they were allowed to shoot the pistol with their rifle in their other hand. Either of those two things could attribute to the superhuman times. I shot it in 20 seconds and don't know where I could have made up any time. I would guess that the pro's might have been able to shoot it under the same rules as me and maybe shaved 2-3 seconds off of it.....not 5-6.

Stage 10 - The prop gun was not there when the RO's shot. It was right in the way of what would have been a shooting position for me had it not been there when I shot.

Stage 12 - I guess I am one of the guys who got away with little movement. I told the RO what I was planning and he said that it had to move more than that. I asked where in the WSB it was stated that the "different position" had to be a minimum distance away from the first position. Another RO came up and agreed with me that a move from holding the rifle against one of the vertical portions of the step vs the flat portion was indeed a different position and that is how I shot it. It was probably about an inch of actual movement.

My issues are two fold - Moving things around after some people have shot it one way making it easier or harder for a different group is wrong. Allowing RO's to add caveats into and out of the WSB's is another one altogether. I experienced both, I shot some stages easier than some others and some harder. I know that all the IF's in the world aren't worth the paper that they are written on, but as I see it, If we had all been on equal ground, I would have ended up about $1k better off at the prize table. That is nothing to scoff at.

I know that there is the mentality within the 3-gun community that the rule books in USPSA are way too thick and that outlaw 3-gun is way better. I disagree wholeheartedly (from a strictly rules standpoint). The USPSA rule book may be thick, but it addressed nearly every question that could arise. Had we been following those rules, 7 of the 12 stages should have been thrown out. 7 out of 12 is too many. I don't know if it is the fault of the MD, the RO's or whose so I won't address that.

What I will say is that there were a lot of RO's out there working really hard all weekend so that I could have fun this weekend. I did have fun and I will come back to this match. I met a lot of really, really good guys this weekend and I don't think that any of the changes that were made were made with a malicious intent. I think that they were made to make the match better, unfortunately, the changes that were made created vast differences in scoring opportunities. Better communication to the RO's to make sure that they followed the WSB's to the letter, and that nothing was removed or added could have eliminated all of the headache.

I would like to also join the pile on in thanking STI. I have never seen the likes of what they brought to a prize table - My guess would be somewhere int he neighborhood of 12-15 complete guns and maybe another 30 or so frame and slide kits with another pile of individual frames and slides. Wow guys, Thanks a million. DPMS, Seekins, Nightforce, Sig, and others all made significant contributions to the tables and all deserve a great thank you from us all.

Thanks,

Jeff Blackmon

[Deathtrap]

So who's the guy that won tac I have never heard of?

[M ammo]

The Ro that had his Pistol fall out of his holster on Stage ONE DID get DQ'ed.

As for Stage two, I was the RO for that stage. I did not find out until the RO shoot on Thursday that the clarification on what port the steel plates were to be shot.

I believe it was a safety decision as the plates were giving splat back, even from the posts, on the front wall.

I also LIKE, the stage descriptions to be, more clear, but then again, I like to have as much flexibility, in how to shoot the stage, to be able to go with my shooting strengths and mitigate weaknesses.

So the let me call them OPEN minded stage descriptions are a double edge sword.

I do my best to be fair, to all, in all RO’ing situations, run an efficient organized stage and Hope everyone has a fun safe experience.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Re read my post.....I said he was DQ'd. What I said was, that's when the ROs were talking about how to shoot it after seeing another shooter take the poppers or plates with the prop pistol to avoid a shotgun reload.

[B.J. Norris]

I'm pretty certain that I'm the mentioned 3GN Pro who ran the house twice(not like there were a ton of us there), so I'll chime in. The fault lines in the house were there, but weren't mentioned in the posted WSB, the quick brief I got before shooting, nor did they look freshly painted(at least when I was there). I can't recall ever being in a shoot house that had fault lines, and I know they use it quite a bit at the range, so I honestly didn't pay much attention to them. When I finished my first run (about 17.5), I was told I had to shoot from two ports... They had to go ask the RM for clarification, which is when I re-shot it, ending up with a time about 4 seconds slower than the first.

I think there we some serious issues with the WSBs that led to the problems. As most everybody has mentioned, I want to shoot the same match as everybody else. I certainly don't want to have an unfair advantage over anybody because of physical changes in the course. I strive to hold myself to a certain level of personal responsibility, and I want the score that I earned/shot, good, bad and sometimes ugly. My suggestion is that the stages need more time to be de-bugged and more people reading the WSB before anybody is allowed to shoot them. A few good RO's and shooters walking the stages can solve the majority of potential issues, just because it's a different set of eyes than the people who designed/built them. I've designed quite a few stages for USPSA matches, and no matter how hard you try, you always have a certain way you want/imagine people will shoot the stage. Sometimes, this allows for a loophole or two in the course and/or WSB that people from the outside looking in can spot in a heartbeat.

I wasn't able to make it back for the prize table, but I understand STI and the other sponsors had an awesome show of support for the sport! Thanks to everybody who made the match happen!

[EaZeNuTZ33]

I want to reiterate, that with a single exception.....all of the ROs were excellent and only added to the fun of shooting the match. We joked and had a lot of fun at the match and I'm not necessarily saying that people who scored high (ROs or people who shot with ROs) cheated or purposely did anything unethical. If it was the variances in how things were shot or scored, IMO you have to throw stages and/or scores out, because it's no longer the same match just because it's roughly in the same locations with similar shooting descriptions and targets in about the same spots.

[3gunshooter123]

So who's the guy that won tac I have never heard of?

That would be Justin Morris a good local shooter, but also a close friend of the MD and also one of the shooter to shoot early from what I have been told

[kurtm]

Hey deathtrap, the beauty of this sport is that you never know who has been out there practicing. You might not believe it but not everyone brags all over Facebook and YouTube when they knock a couple of plates down semi-fast.

Edited April 14, 2014 by kurtm

[M ammo]

Hey deathtrap, the beauty of this sport is that you never know who has been out there practicing. You might not believe it but not everyone brags all over Facebook and YouTube when they knock a couple of plates down semi-fast.

What is this,,,,,((Practice)) thing you speak of ?????????

[kurtm]

Well I found an economy sized can of it at a little mom and pop gun shop. The unfortunate part is I set it down next to my 1/4 full beer and now I can't find either one.

[TRUBL]

Hey Kurt.....I buy it at Pick n Save:

[M ammo]

Hey Kurt.....I buy it at Pick n Save:

practice in a can.png

And I have not,,, Pick N save,, in Texas,,,,

[myankuskie]

As a WWII class shooter, I shot to have a good time, and that goal was accomplished. I really didn't have any issues with the ROs on any stages, in fact, I found them to be friendly and helpful. I was not aware of any of the stage issues that others described, so I will not address them. I thought the match sponsors were more than generous, and the prize tables were full of great items.

My issue lies with how the prize table for WWII class was lumped in with Heavy Tac. The match information on the website stated that a STI pistol would be awarded to each winner of each class. That was not the case for WWII. There was only one pistol on the HT table, and that went to the winner of HT. I would have rather seen a separate table for WWII with only 3 items on it. One match pistol and any other two items for the 2nd and 3rd place shooters. I paid just as much money as everyone else did to shoot the match, and even though I did not win my class, the winner should have been treated the same as any other class winner.

[Deathtrap]

Good point Kurtm. I must be practicing with the wrong people

[Brian Payne]

Hey deathtrap, the beauty of this sport is that you never know who has been out there practicing. You might not believe it but not everyone brags all over Facebook and YouTube when they knock a couple of plates down semi-fast.

This is hitting the nail on the head. I am amazed at the number of really good shooters that show up for matches and "come from out of no where" to place very high. These humble few are my hero's.

[lmccrock]

STi stepped up big time as well; the table went deep in Tac and they also gave all the ROs a frame and AR lower. It was cool watching the WW2 guys rocking the Garands.

RO here. Not to diminish what STi did, but the AR lower was provided by Dreadnought with special engraving for the match. I have changed uppers a couple times but been using the same Bushmaster 1995-ish A2 lower (with a 2004 JP trigger upgrade) for a long time. Time for a new complete lower to see how many sponsors' parts I can get in one rifle.

[doubleaay78]

To help clear up a couple of 'rumors' mentioned above:

Stage 5: there were 10 paper rifle targets with hard cover when we shot the stage on Friday.

Stage 8: there were 5 offhand static steel targets when we shot the stage on Saturday.

[Bill Sahlberg]

BJ, thanks for speaking up. The horses mouth is always better to listen to than the horses ass :-)

[shred]

STi stepped up big time as well; the table went deep in Tac and they also gave all the ROs a frame and AR lower. It was cool watching the WW2 guys rocking the Garands.

RO here. Not to diminish what STi did, but the AR lower was provided by Dreadnought with special engraving for the match. I have changed uppers a couple times but been using the same Bushmaster 1995-ish A2 lower (with a 2004 JP trigger upgrade) for a long time. Time for a new complete lower to see how many sponsors' parts I can get in one rifle.

Whoops.. the RO I talked to just said STI so I thought they meant both came from there. Dreadnought has always supported the match since day 1, so that is awesome as well..

[cajunautoxer]

what happened to stage one?

had to be thrown out due to "communication" errors

Well some may say communication error, but one of the guys in my squad said when he helped RO'S Thursday they were told go shoot and to read the stage discretion sheet to know how to run the stage

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[mike cyrwus]

So who's the guy that won tac I have never heard of?

That would be Justin Morris a good local shooter, but also a close friend of the MD and also one of the shooter to shoot early from what I have been told

screw what you been told, what you SEE is what matters. I dont like the insinuation there, its bush league, it sucks. There, thats my post for this year.

[mike cyrwus]

Good point Kurtm. I must be practicing with the wrong people

HA! ok, Ill do 2 posts this year. This one is too funny not to laugh at. Ha!