Which would be likely to further increase participation in Revolver Di

[Nik Habicht]

I think it's worth pointing out that whenever you put the issue of Minor-8/Major-6 to a poll, the respondents seem to favor it roughly 2-to-1.

The detractors are louder, but they are distinctly in the minority.

But do you know if the poll is representative of either USPSA membership, USPSA revolver shooters, or match directors? I don't know there's any statistical validity to these polls.....

Would you want to take them to court against a statistician? :-)

For the record -- I'm not a detractor. I'm sceptical, based on years of running matches, that the change to 8 minor/6 major will bring in new blood in my area....

I'm just as doubtful that going to minor scoring for the division, while retaining the six round limit will increase participation....

[underlug]

I think it's worth pointing out that whenever you put the issue of Minor-8/Major-6 to a poll, the respondents seem to favor it roughly 2-to-1.

The detractors are louder, but they are distinctly in the minority.

Actually they are relatively silent when no change is left out of the poll

[Luv2rideWV]

I did not vote in this.

It would be nice to have a 627, and allowing that in Revolver Division would be a great excuse to get one. Maybe, it would be mice to see an extra guy or two participate because of this.

I am often the only guy shooting a wheel gun at the local match I attend, but a few of the old guys are talking about bringing out theirs because of me - and I eagerly await that. The sad thing is that revolvers may be going the way of the dinosaur.

On a side note, it doesn't bother me so bad that a lot of guys don't shoot revolvers because I pay so much attention to the overall combined scores. I like to see how I stack up against others. It feels good to place well against people who have an advantage.

[Cd662]

I did not vote in this.

It would be nice to have a 627, and allowing that in Revolver Division would be a great excuse to get one. Maybe, it would be mice to see an extra guy or two participate because of this.

I am often the only guy shooting a wheel gun at the local match I attend, but a few of the old guys are talking about bringing out theirs because of me - and I eagerly await that. The sad thing is that revolvers may be going the way of the dinosaur.

On a side note, it doesn't bother me so bad that a lot of guys don't shoot revolvers because I pay so much attention to the overall combined scores. I like to see how I stack up against others. It feels good to place well against people who have an advantage.

A lot of people make this comment; to play Devil's Advocate, are you folks (who hold this opinion) content with never actually shooting the Revolver division as it formally stands as long as you beat some low level people? I recently went to a Level 1 match and beat a whole bunch of Production, Limited, and Single Stack shooters who were terrible. They all had an advantage. I go to another indoor local shoot and generally win the match against guys with Production and some Limited setups, and even sometimes guys with rimfire guns and optics. Major advantage. Personally, I want to shoot my wheelgun against other wheelguns. I'm not really for the change but I think some attempt at resolving the issue is better than just saying "Oh well, its OK, I don't mind being the on guy if I beat some other people." Don't get me wrong, that's cool and has its moments but only sometimes...

[brnhp35]

because of local participation (0-1) and my skill level 8 shot minor will not affect me ..i think it may be the best option for the group as a whole though. I did just think of something though....they are going to have to find somewhere to hang more plates on the polish plate rack to make it challenging for those of you good shooters...(it will always be challenging for me)

[Blueridge]

I did not vote in this.

It would be nice to have a 627, and allowing that in Revolver Division would be a great excuse to get one. Maybe, it would be mice to see an extra guy or two participate because of this.

I am often the only guy shooting a wheel gun at the local match I attend, but a few of the old guys are talking about bringing out theirs because of me - and I eagerly await that. The sad thing is that revolvers may be going the way of the dinosaur.

On a side note, it doesn't bother me so bad that a lot of guys don't shoot revolvers because I pay so much attention to the overall combined scores. I like to see how I stack up against others. It feels good to place well against people who have an advantage.

A lot of people make this comment; to play Devil's Advocate, are you folks (who hold this opinion) content with never actually shooting the Revolver division as it formally stands as long as you beat some low level people? I recently went to a Level 1 match and beat a whole bunch of Production, Limited, and Single Stack shooters who were terrible. They all had an advantage. I go to another indoor local shoot and generally win the match against guys with Production and some Limited setups, and even sometimes guys with rimfire guns and optics. Major advantage. Personally, I want to shoot my wheelgun against other wheelguns. I'm not really for the change but I think some attempt at resolving the issue is better than just saying "Oh well, its OK, I don't mind being the on guy if I beat some other people." Don't get me wrong, that's cool and has its moments but only sometimes...

I shoot revolver division because I enjoy competing with a revolver. I have never actually shot anything but a revolver in USPSA competition, and have gone so far as on occasion shooting classifiers (only 1 so far) in production division with my revolver. The way I look at it if there are no other revolver shooters at a match I am working to improve my abilities against those who are competing in the match. Ultimately I want to be ready to compete against other revolver shooters when there are others at matches I participate in. Not shooting my revolver because there are no (or few) other revolver shooters just means that I will not become better with it and when the opportunity arises to compete against other revolver shooters at matches I won't be ready beacuse I have not put in the time with my revolver in preparation at matches.

I want the revolver division to grow, but there must be those dedicated few that consistently shoot revolver to interest those who might want to try the division at a match. Changes to the rules and allowed equipment won't help at all if no one comes out and competes in the revolver division to begin with. No amount of rules and equipment changes will improve the revolver division if people don't come out and compete with revolvers, be they 6 or 8 shot versions.

[Gunjack]

The idea to allow 8 shots into the USPSA revolver division is an old argument that started way before they adopted the 6 round only rule.

My experience with competing in USPSA matches with a revolver include Pre Division and Post USPSA revolver rules, plus owning 6 and 8 hole revolvers during both periods. A few of my classifiers were shot with an 8 hole prior to the transition in rules. If the stages are 8 round friendly, the 8 shot wins hands down. Two basic fundamentals apply when competing with a revolver, no wasted shots and the focus on reloads; for me, 2 extra shots would be a clear advantage. Example: Myself and a small group of revolver shooters competed in a sectional Prior to the narrowing of the rules that only allowed 6 hole revolvers; all of us used 6 shooters (because one of us didn't own an 8 shot and we wanted to be fair to him) except for one competitor... he beat us hands down on all the stages that were 8 round friendly; plus he shot minor. Yeah we won on the other stages but the spread in time was a tad to deep because of the dead stop standing reloads. Unlike the single stack division (8, 9 or 10 rds), having 8 over 6 is a huge factor in many of the stage designs.

If the rules are change to allow 8 rounds to be fired, I'll be using my 627's and put the 625's away for memory sake. In my view, allowing the 8 shots in could possibly be worse for the division because of the equipment race plus the loss of the 6 shooter ... at the very best, it leaves you right where you started, one dominate gun.

Here's another old idea .... create an Open Revolver Division, where anything goes. Would it grow the revolver interest? It would be a hoot But .... hey, I love my wheel guns but let's face it, it is what it is ... a great gun, and just like the single stack, a breed of it's own, just like the men and women use them.

Solution: Compete in two divisions, buy an STI/SVI Open Gun; now that's a blast ... and you get lot's of ammo to pop before a reload.

[Toolguy]

That doesn't work...it's too hard to get an STI to run with .38 Short Colt ammo.

[Bubber]

That doesn't work...it's too hard to get an STI to run with .38 Short Colt ammo.

Where is that Like Button? Good one.... rdd

[71Commander]

To me, shooting a 627 8-shhoter scoring minor is no different that shooting a 10 round 1911, scoring minor, while still competing in the SS DIV.

As to make all revo scoring minor, won't work. All current classifier scores would need to be thrown out. No one would be able to equal the current high hit factors while scoring minor.

[Pseudonym]

To me, shooting a 627 8-shhoter scoring minor is no different that shooting a 10 round 1911, scoring minor, while still competing in the SS DIV.

As to make all revo scoring minor, won't work. All current classifier scores would need to be thrown out. No one would be able to equal the current high hit factors while scoring minor.

Except that most target arrays are set up in 8 round groups(at the local/club level), which is how the playing field is kept level between major and minor in single stack, for the most part.

[71Commander]

To me, shooting a 627 8-shhoter scoring minor is no different that shooting a 10 round 1911, scoring minor, while still competing in the SS DIV.

As to make all revo scoring minor, won't work. All current classifier scores would need to be thrown out. No one would be able to equal the current high hit factors while scoring minor.

Except that most target arrays are set up in 8 round groups(at the local/club level), which is how the playing field is kept level between major and minor in single stack, for the most part.

A gun holding 10/11 rounds is an advantage on that 8 round array which includes 2 or 4 poppers over a gun that holds 8/9.

[Pseudonym]

To me, shooting a 627 8-shhoter scoring minor is no different that shooting a 10 round 1911, scoring minor, while still competing in the SS DIV.

As to make all revo scoring minor, won't work. All current classifier scores would need to be thrown out. No one would be able to equal the current high hit factors while scoring minor.

Except that most target arrays are set up in 8 round groups(at the local/club level), which is how the playing field is kept level between major and minor in single stack, for the most part.

A gun holding 10/11 rounds is an advantage on that 8 round array which includes 2 or 4 poppers over a gun that holds 8/9.

This is going off topic, but are you saying that in single stack as a whole, minor with the higher capacity is at an advantage over major? Or are you being specific to the type of stage you described. If that is the case would not minor with an 8 round revolver have a greater advantage over 6 rounds, when you are shooting 8 rounds from a single position?

[Pseudonym]

As to what would increase revolver turnout at the local level I do not think there is a single answer to that. I have realized I am getting old and things are not the same as they once were and that applies to firearms as well. I can almost guarantee everyone over the age of 40-50 started shooting in close to the same way I did. The first gun I shot was a rimfire rifle hunting squirrel on the weekend with my grandfather. The first handgun I shot was my grandfathers Colt New Service revolver, the first handgun I purchased when I came of age was a revolver. This just is not the way I see things are going in the shooting industry now. Most peoples first gun purchase now is an autoloader of some configuration or another, you just can't argue with the firepower for dollar an autoloader brings. I would even be hard pressed to make an argument that a revolver is that much more reliable over modern day auto pistols. If given my choice I still love to shoot my revolver, but with the younger kids at the match, they just do not have the same memories and fondness for the wheelgun as that is not what they have grownup with as the foundation of their shooting experience. That is my thought on why we do not have more revolver shooters, they have been replaced as the starting foundation, just like cellphones, e-mail, etc., have replaced taking a drive for 5 minutes over to a friends to talk, or writing letters to loved ones.

A Luddite

Edited July 23, 2013 by Pseudonym

[kneelingatlas]

they have been replaced as the starting foundation, just like cellphones, e-mail, etc., have replaced taking a drive for 5 minutes over to a friends to talk, or writing letters to loved ones.

A Luddite

Yes, I'm young, I like 9mms and I hate kittens!

[Blueridge]

As to what would increase revolver turnout at the local level I do not think there is a single answer to that. I have realized I am getting old and things are not the same as they once were and that applies to firearms as well. I can almost guarantee everyone over the age of 40-50 started shooting in close to the same way I did. The first gun I shot was a rimfire rifle hunting squirrel on the weekend with my grandfather. The first handgun I shot was my grandfathers Colt New Service revolver, the first handgun I purchased when I came of age was a revolver. This just is not the way I see things are going in the shooting industry now. Most peoples first gun purchase now is an autoloader of some configuration or another, you just can't argue with the firepower for dollar an autoloader brings. I would even be hard pressed to make an argument that a revolver is that much more reliable over modern day auto pistols. If given my choice I still love to shoot my revolver, but with the younger kids at the match, they just do not have the same memories and fondness for the wheelgun as that is not what they have grownup with as the foundation of their shooting experience. That is my thought on why we do not have more revolver shooters, they have been replaced as the starting foundation, just like cellphones, e-mail, etc., have replaced taking a drive for 5 minutes over to a friends to talk, or writing letters to loved ones.

A Luddite

I believe that higher capacity auto pistols appear to many as better. I was talking to a man a few years ago who advised me that he stopped shooting USPSA matches because there was not enough shooting in them. He had competed in open division and felt that a 32 round required stage max was too low. In addition he had no interest in shooting the other divisions because he did not want to have to reload more often. He only wanted to shoot and not worry about improving his reloading skills.

The revolver division with its capacity limit of 6 (and soon to be 8 I am sure) will have a hard time drawing shooters that prefer the capacity that auto pistols have. There are those who enjoy shooting 8 shot revolvers in competition, and the change to allowing 8 shot versions over the 6 shot I hope will be attract them to participate in the division. I hope that this helps the division grow and that other changes, such as more revolver focused (but not necessarily only) matches, keeps the possible trend going.

I think that in the grand scheme of things it comes down to what part of the challenge of USPSA a competitor prefers. The challenge of the auto pistol allows you to focus more on the shooting, while the revolver adds more to the challenge by requiring a higher number of efficient reloads along with a more complex breakdown of stages due to this.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Blueridge

[pskys2]

As to what would increase revolver turnout at the local level I do not think there is a single answer to that. I have realized I am getting old and things are not the same as they once were and that applies to firearms as well. I can almost guarantee everyone over the age of 40-50 started shooting in close to the same way I did. The first gun I shot was a rimfire rifle hunting squirrel on the weekend with my grandfather. The first handgun I shot was my grandfathers Colt New Service revolver, the first handgun I purchased when I came of age was a revolver. This just is not the way I see things are going in the shooting industry now. Most peoples first gun purchase now is an autoloader of some configuration or another, you just can't argue with the firepower for dollar an autoloader brings. I would even be hard pressed to make an argument that a revolver is that much more reliable over modern day auto pistols. If given my choice I still love to shoot my revolver, but with the younger kids at the match, they just do not have the same memories and fondness for the wheelgun as that is not what they have grownup with as the foundation of their shooting experience. That is my thought on why we do not have more revolver shooters, they have been replaced as the starting foundation, just like cellphones, e-mail, etc., have replaced taking a drive for 5 minutes over to a friends to talk, or writing letters to loved ones.

A Luddite

Agreed and to take it a step further, how many of us grew up with Revolvers blazing away on the TV/Movies? Now if they show up it's usually a prop to highlight "Grampa" Detective, etc...

[dcloudy777]

Speaking of TV... my idea to "revive" the revolver in action shooting is to pair it with the "redheaded stepchild" of multigun, the pump shotgun to create:

The ADAM-12 70s Cop Show 2-Gun League!!!

[pskys2]

Speaking of TV... my idea to "revive" the revolver in action shooting is to pair it with the "redheaded stepchild" of multigun, the pump shotgun to create:

The ADAM-12 70s Cop Show 2-Gun League!!!

Cool, the A12 gun league. But you must wear bell bottom hip huggers and the gals have to wear tie dyed bare midrift shirts. Wait that might not look the best now?

[dcloudy777]

All joking aside, I think a revolver/pump gun match would be awesome... I've even drawn up a rule set!

[sperman]

Speaking of TV... my idea to "revive" the revolver in action shooting is to pair it with the "redheaded stepchild" of multigun, the pump shotgun to create:

The ADAM-12 70s Cop Show 2-Gun League!!!

Cool, the A12 gun league. But you must wear bell bottom hip huggers and the gals have to wear tie dyed bare midrift shirts. Wait that might not look the best now?

You also must have very poor trigger finger discipline.

[scottyinAZ]

as a somewhat die hard revolver guy in az, shooting icore, uspsa, steel challenge and most anything else I can find with a revolver I would like to add into this a bit. I shoot a 627-4 in super as my main gun and by far my favorite. I have shot uspsa matches with a 625. I enjoy the 625, I enjoy the matches. I don't enjoy 30+ round stages that are mainly set up with 7-8 shot shooting areas with a 625. having to do a standing reload in every shooting box takes away the fun, the flow, the feeling of shooting well.... for me at least. having constant standing reloads just takes the wind out of the sails. I don't care about how it stacks against autos, limited 10 or anything else as much as it just feels wrong and kinda stupid to have to stand there, in a shooting box or window, and reload. only to take 1 or 2 more shots, then run off and reload again. if I could shot my 8 shot minor in uspsa I would be shooting a lot more uspsa matches and I would want to travel to more area matches. matter of fact I let my uspsa membership expire because I didn't want to shoot area matches with a 625. its just too choppy for me to have fun doing it. now im in a scramble to get a uspsa legal 8 shot gun running so I can go play again. my current 8 shot has ports in the barrel so its not legal in the "new" uspsa rules. I WANT to go shoot uspsa again with a revolver. before I just lost the will. it wasn't fun enough to make it worth my time and effort. not to mention that after shooting 120+ rounds of 45 major loads from a 625, my hands hurt and its hard on the joints. the 8 shot minor has minimal recoil. its cheaper to load and shoot also. 45 bullets are so expensive now. I do think that more people will participate with the 8 shot guns. and I think the die hard 6 shot guys will keep at it and it will motivate them more, now the goal is to kick the 8 shot guys butts with a 6 shot. when I shot 6 shot I hear a lot of comments from other shooters about how hard it must be to reload 7-8-9 times per stage. I like to reload, its fun and gets the heart pumping, but to stand there and reload in every shooting box sucks. uspsa is an 8 shot minimum game. period. they are not going to configure all uspsa matches to meet the wants of 25 people. 8 shot game = 8 shot gun. minimum. I don't see the logic in it any other way.

the 6 shot uspsa guys are hard core into it and hats off to them. I don't have the patience to do it. most of our icore club only shoots icore. they don't want to stand and reload. or they shoot 8 shot guns in other classes, just because they enjoy their gun and shooting. they already know they are not going to be real competitive. but uspsa has so many little niche divisions, why not loosen up the revolver rules a little so others may enjoy the sport more often?

thank you

Scott Shepherd

[kneelingatlas]

I love it Scotty!

[toothguy]

as a somewhat die hard revolver guy in az, shooting icore, uspsa, steel challenge and most anything else I can find with a revolver I would like to add into this a bit. I shoot a 627-4 in super as my main gun and by far my favorite. I have shot uspsa matches with a 625. I enjoy the 625, I enjoy the matches. I don't enjoy 30+ round stages that are mainly set up with 7-8 shot shooting areas with a 625. having to do a standing reload in every shooting box takes away the fun, the flow, the feeling of shooting well.... for me at least. having constant standing reloads just takes the wind out of the sails. I don't care about how it stacks against autos, limited 10 or anything else as much as it just feels wrong and kinda stupid to have to stand there, in a shooting box or window, and reload. only to take 1 or 2 more shots, then run off and reload again. if I could shot my 8 shot minor in uspsa I would be shooting a lot more uspsa matches and I would want to travel to more area matches. matter of fact I let my uspsa membership expire because I didn't want to shoot area matches with a 625. its just too choppy for me to have fun doing it. now im in a scramble to get a uspsa legal 8 shot gun running so I can go play again. my current 8 shot has ports in the barrel so its not legal in the "new" uspsa rules. I WANT to go shoot uspsa again with a revolver. before I just lost the will. it wasn't fun enough to make it worth my time and effort. not to mention that after shooting 120+ rounds of 45 major loads from a 625, my hands hurt and its hard on the joints. the 8 shot minor has minimal recoil. its cheaper to load and shoot also. 45 bullets are so expensive now. I do think that more people will participate with the 8 shot guns. and I think the die hard 6 shot guys will keep at it and it will motivate them more, now the goal is to kick the 8 shot guys butts with a 6 shot. when I shot 6 shot I hear a lot of comments from other shooters about how hard it must be to reload 7-8-9 times per stage. I like to reload, its fun and gets the heart pumping, but to stand there and reload in every shooting box sucks. uspsa is an 8 shot minimum game. period. they are not going to configure all uspsa matches to meet the wants of 25 people. 8 shot game = 8 shot gun. minimum. I don't see the logic in it any other way.

the 6 shot uspsa guys are hard core into it and hats off to them. I don't have the patience to do it. most of our icore club only shoots icore. they don't want to stand and reload. or they shoot 8 shot guns in other classes, just because they enjoy their gun and shooting. they already know they are not going to be real competitive. but uspsa has so many little niche divisions, why not loosen up the revolver rules a little so others may enjoy the sport more often?

thank you

Scott Shepherd

+1, I think everything you wrote is right on the money. I shot the last local USPSA match with my 627, I haven't shot a USPSA match in years. I really had a lot of fun. When I can, I want to come back because it was fun.

[EkuJustice]

Going to 8round minor would basically make the current 625 obsolete overnight as with 8roujd neutral stages the elimination if the standing reload will more than make up for minor scoring. Revolver will never be a vibrant division and is basically done by the same group of diehard guys. Making their equipment obsolete will not help the division