Retroactive Rules Decisions / Cheating

[Jaxshooter]

I am not suprised at all by the lack of integrity of people today. Young people growing up today see it from the top officials of government right on down the chain and think it is allright because nothing is ever done about it. If there are no consiquences for actions that break the rules whether they pertain to life or a game people have the attitude it is acceptable. It is not acceptable and should not be condoned under any circumstances. What we are teaching the youth of today that it is ok to cheat as long as you acheive the end result you are after.

[Steve RA]

^{Wow, that is what Smokey Yunick also said.}

[ChuckS]

I disagree with the moving to Open part. The shooter should be moved to the division his equip fits into first. Now that might end up being open but. Heavy optic would. Have worked here.

At the DPMS tri gun years ago a shooter had 10 in the shotgun In this case he was moved from tac ops to open

Jay

Here is the rule:

7.5.1 If a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

[J.Schmitt]

I disagree with the moving to Open part. The shooter should be moved to the division his equip fits into first. Now that might end up being open but. Heavy optic would. Have worked here.

At the DPMS tri gun years ago a shooter had 10 in the shotgun In this case he was moved from tac ops to open

Jay

Here is the rule:

7.5.1 If a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

Thats the part I disagree with, that is a USPSA rule, While this was a USPSA match this is not entirely a USPSA discussion. This could have happened at any number of major matches. That rule is written right there in 7.5.1., that is a fact. That does not make it the most viable option, nor does it make it the correct on face value.

I'll throw it a little with Jesse here, I thought the discussion had concluded that a 1X and true irons were equal with neither being an advantage over the other.

Jay

[Religious Shooter]

So if I purposely shoot HM Lim with a magnified optic.

If I get found out and the worst that can happen is I get into the division that I was supposed to shoot at?

Is that really a punishment?

[Nik Habicht]

So if I purposely shoot HM Lim with a magnified optic.

If I get found out and the worst that can happen is I get into the division that I was supposed to shoot at?

Is that really a punishment?

You think you can be competitive in Open with HML equipment?

[GrumpyOne]

I am not suprised at all by the lack of integrity of people today. Young people growing up today see it from the top officials of government right on down the chain and think it is allright because nothing is ever done about it. If there are no consiquences for actions that break the rules whether they pertain to life or a game people have the attitude it is acceptable. It is not acceptable and should not be condoned under any circumstances. What we are teaching the youth of today that it is ok to cheat as long as you acheive the end result you are after.

This^^^^A man has nothing if he doesn't have integrity.

[J.Schmitt]

So if I purposely shoot HM Lim with a magnified optic.

If I get found out and the worst that can happen is I get into the division that I was supposed

shoot at?

I didn't see that anyone suggested he intentional showed up trying to use the wrong equip.

Edited May 6, 2013 by J.Schmitt

[Religious Shooter]

So if I purposely shoot HM Lim with a magnified optic.

If I get found out and the worst that can happen is I get into the division that I was supposed to shoot at?

Is that really a punishment?

You think you can be competitive in Open with HML equipment?

??? Did you read the post right above where it was suggested that you don't go to Open but you should go to the appropriate division instead?

[Religious Shooter]

I didn't see that anyone suggested he intentional showed up trying to use the wrong equip.

But don't you see that that would be the result of your rule change? There wouldn't be an incentive to follow the equipment rules because there essentially wouldn't be a penalty for cheating.

With the current USPSA rules there is somewhat of an incentive to read the rules and follow them. If you don't follow them you go to Open, etc.

[J.Schmitt]

yeah, I suppose that I am still under the impression that shooters are among the last of the bastion. I guess without the whole story I am counting on a mistake and not an intentional. If there is something intentional I really think a full blown DQ is in order, Open would be too 'nice'. I'm really wanting some whole story here.

Jay

[Nik Habicht]

So if I purposely shoot HM Lim with a magnified optic.

If I get found out and the worst that can happen is I get into the division that I was supposed to shoot at?

Is that really a punishment?

You think you can be competitive in Open with HML equipment?

Ah, never mind -- I thought you were arguing for something more severe than a move to open....

??? Did you read the post right above where it was suggested that you don't go to Open but you should go to the appropriate division instead?

[Nik Habicht]

yeah, I suppose that I am still under the impression that shooters are among the last of the bastion. I guess without the whole story I am counting on a mistake and not an intentional. If there is something intentional I really think a full blown DQ is in order, Open would be too 'nice'. I'm really wanting some whole story here.

Jay

Currently, intentional cheating would be covered under unsportsmanlike conduct and would result in a match dq.....

Intentional doesn't happen often -- usually folks make a mistake, get bumped to open, which is supposed to be slightly punitive in nature -- and then learn from the mistake....

[Chills1994]

With this next weekend's Single Stack and Revo Nat's, I wonder if the equipment checks will get ramped up because of this thread???

[sperman]

I've hidden one post and edited another. It is very easy to figure out the shooter in question, but we don't need his name in this thread (or a link that includes his name.)

[Gary Stevens]

With this next weekend's Single Stack and Revo Nat's, I wonder if the equipment checks will get ramped up because of this thread???

All are instructed to closely look at the first squad's equipment each day to make sure all of it is within the rules. This gives us an opportunity to correct it before the shooter fires the first shot. Unfortunately, that sometimes doesn't get accomplished as I have had to put shooters into Open on the third or fourth squad of the match for the last two years.

Best laid plans of mice and men often go astray.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Gary Stevens

[grywlfbg]

I didn't see that anyone suggested he intentional showed up trying to use the wrong equip.

It may have been an honest mistake but once the mistake was pointed out he continued to shoot w/ the illegal equipment. That is cheating, plain and simple. There's no benefit of the doubt here. The fact that he left the most valuable prize on the table for 2nd place shows that he knew what he did was wrong but didn't come forward. I mean, come on, this is America. You can screw up hard and if you throw yourself on the mercy of popular opinion and say you screwed up and beg for forgiveness people will give it. Look at damn near every politician in office today.

The level of hero worship that goes on in this sport is laughable. The "cool kids" blatantly cheat - getting "doubles", not being DQ'd for slug on steel because it was Daddy's match, marking targets on a memory stage at SMM3G a few years ago, the list goes on. I shoot this sport because I think it's fun but the number of top shooters that I respect has gotten quite short. Not that anyone cares who I am and whether I respect them but I'm one of the "little people" who actually pay full price for my equipment and I do pay attention to how these people represent their sponsors.

Edited May 6, 2013 by grywlfbg

[EaZeNuTZ33]

I didn't see that anyone suggested he intentional showed up trying to use the wrong equip.

It may have been an honest mistake but once the mistake was pointed out he continued to shoot w/ the illegal equipment. That is cheating, plain and simple. There's no benefit of the doubt here. The fact that he left the most valuable prize on the table for 2nd place shows that he knew what he did was wrong but didn't come forward. I mean, come on, this is America. You can screw up hard and if you throw yourself on the mercy of popular opinion and say you screwed up and beg for forgiveness people will give it. Look at damn near every politician in office today.

The level of hero worship that goes on in this sport is laughable. The "cool kids" blatantly cheat - getting "doubles", not being DQ'd for slug on steel because it was Daddy's match, marking targets on a memory stage at SMM3G a few years ago, the list goes on. I shoot this sport because I think it's fun but the number of top shooters that I respect has gotten quite short. Not that anyone cares who I am and whether I respect them but I'm one of the "little people" who actually pay full price for my equipment and I do pay attention to how these people represent their sponsors.

I'm in a different part of the country, and my experience has been the opposite. The worst thing I have watched from a "big name" was not helping reset targets in one instance, and a team of shooters quietly whispering their stage strategies to each other right after the walk-thru. The ones not resetting got barked at and helped immediately after being called on it, the ones whispering their strategy weren't doing anything wrong but it "looked" secretive.....once the shooters started, they pitched in like everyone else.

Just a thought and my opinion (they're worth what you paid for them)....if the most valuable prize on the table was a gun, and the second most valuable was an upper/scope/...that was fairly close in value, leaving an item behind that required a transfer is not something I would necessarily consider an admittance of guilt. If it wasn't, then maybe it is in more of a grey area. I wasn't at the match in question.

As for RO's...go after the shooter or the match director, but most of the matches I've been to, the RO's were volunteers! I RO'd my first big match last year. I read the rules and thought I knew them fairly well, but I wasn't perfect at it. At one point a somewhat big named shooter had to show me the difference between a shotgun chamber being clear, and a shotgun being cleared with the mag tube empty.....my shotgun didn't allow an empty chamber AND loaded tube after the bolt handle was racked to empty the chamber.

I've met the shooter in question twice, and wouldn't have expected anything intentional like this after first impressions.

Competition, regardless of the sport and type of people who participate, will always bring the best and worst out of people. A referee DIED after being in a coma recently, from injuries sustained at a soccer game after getting sucker punched by a 17 yr old kid after calling a foul...and this is constantly becoming the "norm" in suburban areas, in multiple sports. From what I've seen in one year, and I know my time and experience is limited, 3-gun and other shooting sports is still better than other sports in this aspect. That said, there's always a bad apple!

[justaute]

Well said. This has to be my favorite post on this forum.

I used be a competitive athlete in other popular sports and started shooting USPSA a couple of years ago. This "sport" is addicting. However, the more I'm involved in this "sport", the less respect I have for this community as a collective, notwithstanding the fact that there are a lot of great people in it. It's pretty sad.

The level of hero worship that goes on in this sport is laughable. The "cool kids" blatantly cheat - getting "doubles", not being DQ'd for slug on steel because it was Daddy's match, marking targets on a memory stage at SMM3G a few years ago, the list goes on. I shoot this sport because I think it's fun but the number of top shooters that I respect has gotten quite short. Not that anyone cares who I am and whether I respect them but I'm one of the "little people" who actually pay full price for my equipment and I do pay attention to how these people represent their sponsors.

Edited May 7, 2013 by justaute

[ClutchUSMC]

I don't know where you guys shoot but I have seen the likely match winner DQ'd and have personally DQ'd my practice partner/best friend in major matches in the last 12 months. In fact I often get more scrutiny now that I have the go fast shirt than I did when I was on team UnderArmor and I'm not good enough to be anyone's idol.

[STI91]

Don't want to hijack but just a thought in regard to what justuate is alluding to. What about the shooter's sponsor? Do you think they would condone this kind of behavior to represent their corporation? That was my first thought last year when I personally watched a very-well known shooter, sponsored by one of the biggest manufacturers, condone verbally belittling a beginning shooter on a relatively difficult stage. I lost all respect for the shooter AND the company in that moment and would think twice before buying their product just because of that incident.

[remoandiris]

Don't want to hijack but just a thought in regard to what justuate is alluding to. What about the shooter's sponsor? Do you think they would condone this kind of behavior to represent their corporation? That was my first thought last year when I personally watched a very-well known shooter, sponsored by one of the biggest manufacturers, condone verbally belittling a beginning shooter on a relatively difficult stage. I lost all respect for the shooter AND the company in that moment and would think twice before buying their product just because of that incident.

I had a similar situation at a major last year. Well known worldclass shooter dropped multiple f-bombs after having a bad stage. Next time I'm in that situation, the shooter will be DQd for unsportsmanlike conduct. I'll give you one, even 2, but not every third word for 2 minutes in a very loud, clear voice that spectators have no choice but to hear. That behavior just doesn't belong. I later found out the shooter has a reputation for a bad temper.

[beltjones]

I strongly doubt the sponsors will recognize that a couple of lost sales here and there are the result of the behavior of one of their shooters.

If you don't like what the shooter did, perhaps you should tell the sponsor directly.

[beltjones]

Also, I get that there is hesitation to strip the shooter in question of the title, but at the very least, if I were on the BOD, I would get the shooter's side of the story, and then let them know they wouldn't be invited to compete ever again.

[Nik Habicht]

Also, I get that there is hesitation to strip the shooter in question of the title, but at the very least, if I were on the BOD, I would get the shooter's side of the story, and then let them know they wouldn't be invited to compete ever again.

So getting the shooter's side of it -- that would just be a mere formality then, to justify the preconceived decision to never invite the competitor again?