Retroactive Rules Decisions / Cheating

[Jesse Tischauser]

Chads the VP of 3 Gun Nation.

[Religious Shooter]

I think it would be a good idea for the second RO with the clipboard to just eyeball the shooter's equipment. The clipboard RO has the score sheet that has the shooter's name and division.

I don't see a real need to have a separate stage or period in the match. That just adds more time. And as noted, nothing is stopping a competitor from changing his/her equipment once the official check was done. If the eyeball check by the clipboard RO is done on each stage a competitor can't easily change to non-legal equipment after the initial review.

Just ask the NROI to instruct the RO's to have the procedure in place.

[Lead-Head]

If the shooter is who I think, He is a great guy who I respect very much. He has been a big supporter of 3-gun in several ways. I am beginning to think there is more to this, and as juicy as it is. I feel kinda embarrassed now for my previous comments that I made before I figured out who it was. Lesson learned on my part.

[ChuckS]

On the subject of equipment checks. I'm not a fan. Particularly for multigun. I've never seen it done at any multigun match. I have seen competitors bumped to other divisions but its always done by the ROs, maybe other competitors who see and report. I'm surprised he made it through 12 stages without getting called on it, I really am. I would have been curious the first time I saw a competitor with a pump gun and a rifle with a dot. Particularly one shooting as well as he did.

The legacy method ensuring rule compliance did not work. At the Nationals! There were 9 stages with rifle. That means that at least 18 match officials had the opportunity to do something about the violation. Nothing happened. A guy I work with likes to say that "hope is not a plan". Let's not just hope this won't happen again, lets make sure. NROI may need to look into this also.

Sad,,,

[warpspeed]

On the subject of equipment checks. I'm not a fan. Particularly for multigun. I've never seen it done at any multigun match. I have seen competitors bumped to other divisions but its always done by the ROs, maybe other competitors who see and report. I'm surprised he made it through 12 stages without getting called on it, I really am. I would have been curious the first time I saw a competitor with a pump gun and a rifle with a dot. Particularly one shooting as well as he did.

The legacy method ensuring rule compliance did not work. At the Nationals! There were 9 stages with rifle. That means that at least 18 match officials had the opportunity to do something about the violation. Nothing happened. A guy I work with likes to say that "hope is not a plan". Let's not just hope this won't happen again, lets make sure. NROI may need to look into this also.

Sad,,,

Chuck A - We do not need 5 divisions of multigun. 3 is more than enough. Why are we trying to grow the sport on the fringes ? Grow it in the middle.

Chuck S - The one thing I have learned lately is that the NROI is inept. This idea of having a set of rules regarding equipment is a farce. I have no doubt that even if it had been pointed out, nothing would have been done.

Edited May 4, 2013 by warpspeed

[old506]

Sounds to me that the RO's/Match staff blew it. It is a shame that the credibility of Nationals can be lost so quick.

It is also too bad that 3 gun as a whole has to be so confusing.

[Chills1994]

I guess we'll have to get ink pads and stamps made up, and stamp the back of shooters's hands with what division they are in when they sign in/register.

[Religious Shooter]

Why would they need to do that?

It's already on their score sheet what division they are shooting. Just make it standard practice that the RO with the clipboard should note what the shooter's division is (since it is written right their in front of their face) and look to see if they are within the rules.

[warpspeed]

Why would they need to do that?

It's already on their score sheet what division they are shooting. Just make it standard practice that the RO with the clipboard should note what the shooter's division is (since it is written right their in front of their face) and look to see if they are within the rules.

Send an email to John Amidon asking if he thinks that would be a good idea. Let us know what he says.

[Religious Shooter]

There's three or four Area directors on this thread. I think the request would have more weight if it came from them.

So to be crystal clear... I'm requesting the Area Directors on this thread request the NROI make it a standard practice that the clipboard RO make a visual inspection of the on deck shooter's equipment to see if the shooter is in compliance with his/her stated division.

As stated in this thread, a lot of times the RO's will catch equipment violations. How about if we just encourage that the RO with the clipboard is the primary on this?

[Chills1994]

I wasn't at the match, but what I am getting from another forum is that the divisions weren't listed on those scoresheets at that particular match.

[twodownzero]

This has so tainted our sport and insulted the professionalism of ROs that something needs to be done. We have a NATIONAL CHAMPION who used prohibited equipment? That is just so not cool that I'm shocked and embarrassed that this happened.

[Religious Shooter]

I wasn't at the match, but what I am getting from another forum is that the divisions weren't listed on those scoresheets at that particular match.

Well if we are talking about the 2013 USPSA MG Nationals the shooter's labels have the shooter's name, their squad, their shooter # and their division.

The labels with that info is standard practice in a lot of big matches.

At the MG Nationals they were stuck on the top of each score sheets, the shooter's envelope and a yellow piece of paper saying "It's YOUR responsibility to correct this information. Check the label on this page. Make sure you are listed in the correct division: OPEN LIMITED...."

That label is right in front of the RO with the clipboard.

[Chills1994]

Well, I stand corrected then. That's what I get for believing any ol' thing on the internet.

Now that I know who the shooter in question is and looked at his classifier page, I am of the opinion that it couldn't have just been an accident, or just some simple oversight of the rules. But, hey, that's just my opinion.

[DougCarden]

You know, I read these threads and just shake my head. We have people having statements of fact and maligning people, the organization, and making blanket statements about stuff in which we don't have all the information and facts, relying on "some" information relayed on the internet.

I just have to wonder when it will be my turn to be the "Person of Interest" who is tried and convicted based on hearsay and conjecture. It may be me being a cop for the last 20 years, but I learned a long time ago not to open my mouth until I had all the facts and had spoken to all the parties involved, and even then you don't get the whole truth.

The person in question may have done something wrong, or just made a mistake based on what they were told. He may be a jerk that cheated. I don't know, and pretty much no one else here does either. If mistakes were made, then fix them and move on. I think people here need to get to the range more and enjoy life than pick at scabs here.....

I kept my mouth shut on the FNS thread, but this is ridiculous....calling the integrity of the NROI into question.....really?

Come on guys, we have to be better than this......

DougC

[Jesse Tischauser]

I kept my mouth shut on the FNS thread, but this is ridiculous....calling the integrity of the NROI into question.....really?Come on guys, we have to be better than this......DougC

What what did I miss about the FNS?

[RammerJammer]

To everyone that keeps trying to close this or was slamming people over the FNS posts you are creating a really dangerous Us and Them. I am a new shooter, 1+ year with a surgery thrown in the middle. In the short time I have seen nonstop shiftiness on the local level. I watch SO's switching out ammo for the chrono in a panic. I have seen a shooter DQ on a friday come back and start on Saturday, watched an MD shoot a stage over and over till he was happy with his score and tons of 'small lies' while yelling out scores pasting a stage. There is an issue in the sport. If you get crushed when questioning it just legitimizing it. Its bad enough when you get excited to watch a 'pro' just to see them skirt the rules or pitch a temper fit when they don't get their way just to get it in the end. This needs to be fixed and the only way to fix it is to talk about it in the open.

[Blockhead]

I'm requesting the Area Directors on this thread request the NROI make it a standard practice that the clipboard RO make a visual inspection of the on deck shooter's equipment to see if the shooter is in compliance with his/her stated division.

I've attended the Level 1 RO class twice with 2 different instructors. I recall this practice being specifically addressed with particular emphasis on the RO with the clipboard being the "Second Pair of Eyes".

[DrawandDuck]

To everyone that keeps trying to close this or was slamming people over the FNS posts you are creating a really dangerous Us and Them. I am a new shooter, 1+ year with a surgery thrown in the middle. In the short time I have seen nonstop shiftiness on the local level. I watch SO's switching out ammo for the chrono in a panic. I have seen a shooter DQ on a friday come back and start on Saturday, watched an MD shoot a stage over and over till he was happy with his score and tons of 'small lies' while yelling out scores pasting a stage. There is an issue in the sport. If you get crushed when questioning it just legitimizing it. Its bad enough when you get excited to watch a 'pro' just to see them skirt the rules or pitch a temper fit when they don't get their way just to get it in the end. This needs to be fixed and the only way to fix it is to talk about it in the open.

Sounds like you need to find a new group to shoot with.....Are you speaking of USPSA matches?

[Nik Habicht]

There's three or four Area directors on this thread. I think the request would have more weight if it came from them.

So to be crystal clear... I'm requesting the Area Directors on this thread request the NROI make it a standard practice that the clipboard RO make a visual inspection of the on deck shooter's equipment to see if the shooter is in compliance with his/her stated division.

As stated in this thread, a lot of times the RO's will catch equipment violations. How about if we just encourage that the RO with the clipboard is the primary on this?

The clipboard RO should be watching the shooter running the stage -- let's remember he has an important job to do there, and no time to check the on deck shooter's gear.

But there's no reason all ROs shouldn't be encouraged to pay attention to the shooter's gear during each run, or whenever else they notice something.

At make ready would seem to be a good time for that -- as the ROs should be watching the competitor prep his gun(s)....

Fellow competitors also need to do their bit -- if you see someone switching guns, breaking a safety rule between stages, or running a piece of gear that's not modified appropriately for the declared division, mention it to a match official. If you see it, say nothing, and want to complain about it later -- because you think it should have been someone else's job to notice -- I don't have a lot of sympathy for you, as you're part of the problem....

[RammerJammer]

To everyone that keeps trying to close this or was slamming people over the FNS posts you are creating a really dangerous Us and Them. I am a new shooter, 1+ year with a surgery thrown in the middle. In the short time I have seen nonstop shiftiness on the local level. I watch SO's switching out ammo for the chrono in a panic. I have seen a shooter DQ on a friday come back and start on Saturday, watched an MD shoot a stage over and over till he was happy with his score and tons of 'small lies' while yelling out scores pasting a stage. There is an issue in the sport. If you get crushed when questioning it just legitimizing it. Its bad enough when you get excited to watch a 'pro' just to see them skirt the rules or pitch a temper fit when they don't get their way just to get it in the end. This needs to be fixed and the only way to fix it is to talk about it in the open.

Sounds like you need to find a new group to shoot with.....Are you speaking of USPSA matches?

Thats what I had been thinking but if it goes on at nationals repeatedly with skirts and guns and optics etc then is it not everywhere? I haven't been to a national competition yet but the reactions on here when it is brought up lead me to believe there is a standing do not speak of it rule. My only exposure is IDPA and within the southeast and what I see on here. I will be starting USPSA next month, location and scheduling has kept me away so far but I would like for there to be a rules culture like golf where it is horrifying to break the rules.

[BritinUSA]

I don't think its right to assume that honest mistakes are the same as cheating. Svetlana's skirt and belt position is legal in IPSC Production but not in USPSA Production. As this error was not picked up until later in the match by RO's and she was bumped to Open as per the rules.

The situation at MG seems to be different. Other members of the squad noticed the problem and informed the competitor, according to information posted here, he chose to continue to compete in the wrong division.

One case is a mistake whereas the second appears more deliberate. Both issues would not have happened if there was a first stage inspection.

[old506]

I have a hard time having the competitors point out rules violations, I am more inclined to be willing to give someone a procedural for it. A snitch, especially if they are wrong, can effect the match too. It amazes me what happens any time there is controversy on the range, you immediately have the competitor and RO hashing it out and then you get other competitors jumping in too. It happens regularly and usually is a mess.

It seems the breakdown, in this case, was at the RO/Match staff level. I wonder if all the RO's even know/knew the rules? An optic on a rifle where there isn't supposed to be one is about as obvious as it gets. Then you wonder if an RO noticed it and overlooked it, not maliciously, more like, "the person has it so it must be o.k."? To get through that many stages there was obviously a major breakdown, especially when this is supposed to be the showcase multi-gun event for USPSA for the year.

I think 3 gun divisions need to be paired way, way back. Is it really a "National Title" when there are only a handful of competitors in the event?

[Religious Shooter]

The clipboard RO should be watching the shooter running the stage -- let's remember he has an important job to do there, and no time to check the on deck shooter's gear.

??? Why wouldn't he/she have any time. They don't have time for a glance?

As far as I can tell the RO with the timer is the primary in watching the shooter. The clipboard RO was doing other stuff --- watching the flying clay targets get hit/missed, watching the primary RO call for procedurals, etc. At the start the timer RO should be looking at the shooter during the LAMR with his/her gun handling and in at the same time the clipboard RO can glance at the shooter's equipment and given the division that's written on the label see if their compliant.

What could be more simple?

And if you take a look at Blockhead's post... from the class he took it apparently is already encouraged. If it's already encouraged... why wasn't it caught? The RO's either were either complacent or they weren't taught?

[Gary Stevens]

While the RO crew has a responsibility, and a large one at that, the shooter is responsible for their equipment. Unless NROI provides a shooter the equipment they use, it can only be the resposibility of the shooter.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Gary Stevens