Retroactive Rules Decisions / Cheating

[D.Hayden]

Did any match staff actually witness the illegal equipment?

Not sure how you could take the win away, based on competitors observations?

We already don't allow video/photographs into arbitration.. but maybe this would be an exception to that, since it would be more obvious (more like the NFL replay rule)

[Chuck Anderson]

Did any match staff actually witness the illegal equipment?

Not sure how you could take the win away, based on competitors observations?

We already don't allow video/photographs into arbitration.. but maybe this would be an exception to that, since it would be more obvious (more like the NFL replay rule)

Lots of staff witnessed it. Just a question of if they actually figured out what they were seeing.

[martyg00]

Just to clarify for everybody - the OP is talking about me.

I willfully admit and accept the fact that I used, and was informed that the use of, my superhuman speed, cat like agility, expert gun handling skills, and devastating good looks in an effort to deliberately advance myself at my latest match. While I will agree that all of these traits SHOULD put me in at least open, there are currently no rules against my having these abilities and utilizing them in whatever division I choose.

There were several times when I heard, "That out to be illegal", "Wow, did you see that?", and "That's not even fair!" I heard all of those comments both while I was shooting and again when the shooting was over.

I just can't turn it off, gentlemen and I won't apologize for the awesomeness portrayed after the beep. Like Lady Gaga, "I was born this way."

Thanks, and I hope there are no hard feelings.

I don't see anywhere in this post that anybody admitted to using equipment that was/ is illegal in the division he shot. If that was the case and he self reported later, collected his award and went to the prize table, all I see in this post is someone rubbing our noses in it.

I've drawn my own conclusions and everybody else can also.

Marty

A-7424

[jlamphere]

Just a guess, but maybe latech's post containes bit of sarcasm?

[Chuck Anderson]

I I wasn't at this match, but as I understand it, the competitor was unaware of the equipment rule and there was in fact some confusion regarding the application of a rule change to allow 1x sighting devices in HM Limited during the 2012 shooting season.

Sorry, but this is not true. There was no rule change that affected 1x or red dots in HML. It's never been legal. There was no change. This is not an excuse. Might have been in a different sport, but not USPSA.

[Doug H.]

The only IPSC match I ever shot, the Pan Am Shotgun match at Rock Castle, there was an equipment inspection at Registration. The Officials actually looked at each shotgun to make sure that it met the rules for the Division that the shooter was in. Perhaps we need to do the same thing for a national match here. It could be done on the shooter's first stage so that everyone is GTG from the start.

Doug

[Chuck Anderson]

Just to clarify for everybody - the OP is talking about me.

I willfully admit and accept the fact that I used, and was informed that the use of, my superhuman speed, cat like agility, expert gun handling skills, and devastating good looks in an effort to deliberately advance myself at my latest match. While I will agree that all of these traits SHOULD put me in at least open, there are currently no rules against my having these abilities and utilizing them in whatever division I choose.

There were several times when I heard, "That out to be illegal", "Wow, did you see that?", and "That's not even fair!" I heard all of those comments both while I was shooting and again when the shooting was over.

I just can't turn it off, gentlemen and I won't apologize for the awesomeness portrayed after the beep. Like Lady Gaga, "I was born this way."

Thanks, and I hope there are no hard feelings.

I don't see anywhere in this post that anybody admitted to using equipment that was/ is illegal in the division he shot. If that was the case and he self reported later, collected his award and went to the prize table, all I see in this post is someone rubbing our noses in it.

I've drawn my own conclusions and everybody else can also.

Marty

A-7424

I hope the conclusion you drew was that Latech is completely full of it and not the subject of this thread. Completely a different person we are talking about. He's just being (trying to be?) funny.

[Chuck Anderson]

The only IPSC match I ever shot, the Pan Am Shotgun match at Rock Castle, there was an equipment inspection at Registration. The Officials actually looked at each shotgun to make sure that it met the rules for the Division that the shooter was in. Perhaps we need to do the same thing for a national match here. It could be done on the shooter's first stage so that everyone is GTG from the start.

Doug

But that was not a multigun match. You can't do a first stage check at a multigun because you don't use all your gear on every stage. Someone who started on stage 1 would have their pistol, rifle and shotgun. Someone who started on Stage 7 would have their rifle and shotgun, someone on stage 3 would have their pistol and rifle. And it still wouldn't fix the problem in this case which was RO's who didn't recognize equipment that didn't meet division standards. To be on point here, he ran through your stage Doug, with a rifle that didn't meet the division rules. I'm sure as CRO you reviewed the rules prior to the match but didn't catch it. It sucks but I don't know if the best thing is to change the rules because one guy got through with equipment he shouldn't have. There are three groups that should be checking competitor equipment on every stage. Not just once a match but every time someone comes to the line. Just like we do in every other match. The competitor, the other competitors and staff. The competitor should be familiar with the rule book enough to know his gear is legit. The other competitors should be keeping an eye out. Not just for the gotcha but to try and get something resolved prior to having to bump someone. I've told guys on my squad several times on an unloaded gun start stage to make sure they only had 10 rounds in the mag. Or walked someone to a safe area to move sneaky and evil illegal grip tape. And finally the match officials should be checking as well. Every stage though. An equipment check on stage 1 doesn't work if by stage 8 the guy is using a 155mm mag and nobody looks.

[martyg00]

Just to clarify for everybody - the OP is talking about me.

I willfully admit and accept the fact that I used, and was informed that the use of, my superhuman speed, cat like agility, expert gun handling skills, and devastating good looks in an effort to deliberately advance myself at my latest match. While I will agree that all of these traits SHOULD put me in at least open, there are currently no rules against my having these abilities and utilizing them in whatever division I choose.

There were several times when I heard, "That out to be illegal", "Wow, did you see that?", and "That's not even fair!" I heard all of those comments both while I was shooting and again when the shooting was over.

I just can't turn it off, gentlemen and I won't apologize for the awesomeness portrayed after the beep. Like Lady Gaga, "I was born this way."

Thanks, and I hope there are no hard feelings.

I don't see anywhere in this post that anybody admitted to using equipment that was/ is illegal in the division he shot. If that was the case and he self reported later, collected his award and went to the prize table, all I see in this post is someone rubbing our noses in it.

I've drawn my own conclusions and everybody else can also.

Marty

A-7424

I hope the conclusion you drew was that Latech is completely full of it and not the subject of this thread. Completely a different person we are talking about. He's just being (trying to be?) funny.

Not the conclusion I drew as he said he was the gentlemen mentiond in the OP's original post. Forgive me as I am old and have trouble understanding this posting thing when people don't post under their real names and take credit for doing things they don't do.

Kind of remindes me of the Doodie Forum...... I guess I was trolled!

Marty

A-7424

Edited May 3, 2013 by martyg00

[Doug H.]

The only IPSC match I ever shot, the Pan Am Shotgun match at Rock Castle, there was an equipment inspection at Registration. The Officials actually looked at each shotgun to make sure that it met the rules for the Division that the shooter was in. Perhaps we need to do the same thing for a national match here. It could be done on the shooter's first stage so that everyone is GTG from the start.

Doug

But that was not a multigun match. You can't do a first stage check at a multigun because you don't use all your gear on every stage. Someone who started on stage 1 would have their pistol, rifle and shotgun. Someone who started on Stage 7 would have their rifle and shotgun, someone on stage 3 would have their pistol and rifle. And it still wouldn't fix the problem in this case which was RO's who didn't recognize equipment that didn't meet division standards. To be on point here, he ran through your stage Doug, with a rifle that didn't meet the division rules. I'm sure as CRO you reviewed the rules prior to the match but didn't catch it. It sucks but I don't know if the best thing is to change the rules because one guy got through with equipment he shouldn't have. There are three groups that should be checking competitor equipment on every stage. Not just once a match but every time someone comes to the line. Just like we do in every other match. The competitor, the other competitors and staff. The competitor should be familiar with the rule book enough to know his gear is legit. The other competitors should be keeping an eye out. Not just for the gotcha but to try and get something resolved prior to having to bump someone. I've told guys on my squad several times on an unloaded gun start stage to make sure they only had 10 rounds in the mag. Or walked someone to a safe area to move sneaky and evil illegal grip tape. And finally the match officials should be checking as well. Every stage though. An equipment check on stage 1 doesn't work if by stage 8 the guy is using a 155mm mag and nobody looks.

Yes, I was CRO on stage 3 and no, I didn't catch the error. I also didn't run every magazine through a gauge. We have to rely to some extent on the shooter complying with Division rules. The ROs are not going to catch everybody who is not following the rules. That's just life, but people who have knowledge of cheating (or just errors) need to speak up to range officials. I made the post above because I would like to see something that is more systematic as opposed to hoping someone catches the shooter in error.

Doug

[Flexmoney]

The only IPSC match I ever shot, the Pan Am Shotgun match at Rock Castle, there was an equipment inspection at Registration. The Officials actually looked at each shotgun to make sure that it met the rules for the Division that the shooter was in. Perhaps we need to do the same thing for a national match here. It could be done on the shooter's first stage so that everyone is GTG from the start.

Doug

But that was not a multigun match. You can't do a first stage check at a multigun because you don't use all your gear on every stage. Someone who started on stage 1 would have their pistol, rifle and shotgun. Someone who started on Stage 7 would have their rifle and shotgun, someone on stage 3 would have their pistol and rifle. And it still wouldn't fix the problem in this case which was RO's who didn't recognize equipment that didn't meet division standards. To be on point here, he ran through your stage Doug, with a rifle that didn't meet the division rules. I'm sure as CRO you reviewed the rules prior to the match but didn't catch it. It sucks but I don't know if the best thing is to change the rules because one guy got through with equipment he shouldn't have. There are three groups that should be checking competitor equipment on every stage. Not just once a match but every time someone comes to the line. Just like we do in every other match. The competitor, the other competitors and staff. The competitor should be familiar with the rule book enough to know his gear is legit. The other competitors should be keeping an eye out. Not just for the gotcha but to try and get something resolved prior to having to bump someone. I've told guys on my squad several times on an unloaded gun start stage to make sure they only had 10 rounds in the mag. Or walked someone to a safe area to move sneaky and evil illegal grip tape. And finally the match officials should be checking as well. Every stage though. An equipment check on stage 1 doesn't work if by stage 8 the guy is using a 155mm mag and nobody looks.

Maybe the first "stage" of rotation could be a 10 minute equipment check ?

[Flexmoney]

When I am the 2nd RO (clipboard), I like to call out the shooters name and division to the 1st RO (timer). I try to do that as common practice. Both to make sure I have the right shooter/score sheet and to remind myself and the other RO what equipment the shooter should have.

[BritinUSA]

Maybe the first "stage" of rotation could be a 10 minute equipment check ?

That was my suggestion too. I know that in 3G they don't have all their guns 'on' for every stage, but they will have them on-hand and if everyone knows that the first stage has an inspection then everyone can be prepared for it.

Do the same thing for handgun Nationals and it solves all of these issues as the competitor can be moved into the correct division or fix the issue before a shot is fired so they can compete in their chosen division.

[Tactica]

To the specifics of this particular competitor or situation, I'm going to stay out of that... I like to give folks the benefit of the doubt and I trust the range staff did the best they could with what they were given and could work with at the time. A call was made, the match is over. So be it. Perhaps it's more prudent to talk about how the sport should grow and how matches can better learn to avoid repeating potential mistakes?

Moving on...

In general, competitors can have different ammo and/or backup gun in their bag and go to it without permission if they are trying to cheat... but we still have a Chrono and equipment checks at USPSA majors. The chrono station is a separate stage and every squad runs through it as we all know as there is still value in the procedure and checking.

Same equipment check stage could be done at 3-gun match, and it would have a same benefit.

It doesn't mean it would catch all problems or someone who hypothetically, wanted to blatantly cheat. Equipment checks would be a move in the right direction to catch accidential equipment oversights though. It would also be a statement toward integrity to the competitors who have paid large sums in fees, ammo, travel and time commitment to these matches. It would show that the coordinators are putting in their best foot foward in an attempt at due diligence to avoid easily rectified issues.

I agree with Doug in that regard, that a formalized equipment check process has its benefits at 3-gun majors. Simply put, stage RO's are focused first on safety, second on getting folks through their stage consistently, and then scoring fairly, by division, with equipment inspections included... but the equipment by division is one of the many things they are responsible for noticing as opposed to a stage dedicated to that work and oversight - like a chrono stage at a USPSA major match.

Fellow competitors may likely feel a whole lot more empowered about mentioning something to the RO when equipment violations were observed as well. If there was more structure to the equipment checking process at these events, a formal standard or expecation would be a benchmark not only in rule, but in a specific inspection and measure. If a violation were to occur after said inspection, the 'oversight' or 'accident' would be much harder to justify at that point.

Just my thoughts,

Edited May 3, 2013 by Tactica

[Jaxshooter]

I agree with Gary Stevens. It is too bad that you can't post the cheaters name on this forum. But if you want to know who it is just check the results from the Multi Gun Nationals.

[co-exprs]

I I wasn't at this match, but as I understand it, the competitor was unaware of the equipment rule and there was in fact some confusion regarding the application of a rule change to allow 1x sighting devices in HM Limited during the 2012 shooting season.

Sorry, but this is not true. There was no rule change that affected 1x or red dots in HML. It's never been legal. There was no change. This is not an excuse. Might have been in a different sport, but not USPSA.

In April 2012 one of the shooters flew used a red dot on top of his 308 to shoot HM Limited at the USPSA Colorado State Multigun match. When the subject was brought up we were informed that there was a BOD vote in late 2011 to allow red dots and that it simply wasn't published yet, but legal. I don't think it changed the standings, only the % spread, but my point is that if the rule never officially changed, the perception was that it had and hence the confusion. After that match I fully expected red dots to be legal when the new rule set came out and purchased a prismatic just for that rifle and division in 2013. When the new rules were released, I mounted up irons.

If your comment were true, and nothing happened to cause any confusion in the rules for 2012, then I am left to assume that the choice of illegal equipment was with the malicious intent to crush those who they would likely beat anyways and that as high visibility, sponsored shooters, their sponsors support such behavior. If this is the case, then I agree that all shooters should go through tech inspection to keep the unscrupulous gamers honest. I don't however believe this to be the case. I believe these competitors took the time to mount up red dots and flew to these matches under the impression that it was in fact legal. Thus there was confusion, evidenced by people being misinformed. Granted, when the new rules were released, this man should have read them fully, but I don't beleive the Pro level shooters, I have come to look up to for their skill and accomplishments in our sport, got there on the backs of others. I think that the vast majority of us show up with the appropriate gear with the intent to play by the rules and honest mistakes are sometimes made. I also agree with you that the rules don't need to be changed because of one man's honest mistake. What he does with the information afterwards is his choice, but I'm choosing to give the benefit of the doubt. Anything less at this point would be hipocracy on my part, as I have made mistakes and been give the benefit of the doubt too. I think the new rules are fine the way they are and I agree that USPSA has to draw the line somewhere on arbitration and challenges.

Edited May 4, 2013 by co-exprs

[Chills1994]

Outside of any posts by the "alleged cheater", I'd like to see this thread closed/locked. I'm sure by now somebody has made him aware of this thread. I'd reckon Linda would have access to the email addresses of the shooters. She could email him the link to this thread, just to be sure.

[MJMayman]

Trying to pigeon hole the individuals's conduct into an existing rule, or blame the overworked staff for what happened is inappropriate in this case and is not what I see as the main issue here. This is a man without honor, totally lacking the qualities we want our sport to project. He should be treated accordingly.

[Chills1994]

He should be allowed to come forward and speak for himself and/or rectify the situation before this internet dog pile gets any worse.

You, know, 6th Amendment and all that.

[MarkCO]

Several things stated in post #66 are inaccurate...but they are also irrelevant to the issue with HM-Lim in this match.

[Bryan 45]

Trying to pigeon hole the individuals's conduct into an existing rule, or blame the overworked staff for what happened is inappropriate in this case and is not what I see as the main issue here. This is a man without honor, totally lacking the qualities we want our sport to project. He should be treated accordingly.

I do not know any more than what I have read here, but I have known this shooter for several years and have always respected him and will continue to do so at least until I hear his side of the story.

[latech15]

Since as has been stated those are the rules then the rules need to be changed. They should read that any competitor using equipment not allowed in the Division they have entered will be DQd upon discovery of the violation irrelevant to any othe rules or time limits. Who ever this was should be suspended for competition for at least 6 months if not longer and should have to return all awards received. The shooters in this Division should be moved up in the standings.

As a new competitor to 3gun, I think that penalty is a tad steep when considering new shooters. I understand that this particular instance was by an experienced shooter who should have known better and when he/she was informed of the violation, they did noting with the information, knowing and not saying is just as bad as trying to hide it in my opinion.

I agree with the sentiment, but I think that a bump to open is sufficient penalty unless you had proof that he tried to intentionally skirt the rules.

This all leads back to the point that we need ONE set of rules for three gun. All of this changing and studying that is required is stupid in my opinion. One set of rules works for pistol, why wouldn't it work for 3G?

[Jesse Tischauser]

Wow this is juicy! Just like the 3GN finale debacle of 2011. I believe the shooter in that case made the decision to give up his spot in the shoot off. The officials at the match made the call that he won during the run and by the rules that was official. The shooter did the right thing and forfeited his spot.

Like I said in that instance the only way to make it right is for the shooter to do what's right. I'd bet money he does too.

[Chills1994]

[Chills1994]

latech wrote

...This all leads back to the point that we need ONE set of rules for three gun. All of this changing and studying that is required is stupid in my opinion. One set of rules works for pistol, why wouldn't it work for 3G?

Maybe some of you guys can refresh my memory, but didn't the NRA (represented by Chad maybe?)get together with USPSA HQ and/or IDPA HQ a few years back and try to hash something out as far as 3gun/multigun goes?

I don't know if Chad is or was the brain behind the 3gun nation idea, or if he is strictly the mouthpiece???

EDIT: USPSA isn't the only pistol game in town

Edited May 3, 2013 by Chills1994