Retroactive Rules Decisions / Cheating

[diablodawg]

So here's the scenario: At a major multigun match, a well-known shooter is participating in a smaller than average division. He is confused as to the rules and competes with equipment that should take him out of his stated division and inherently offers a massive competitive advantage. Here's the problem- he is the only one on his squad shooting that division and there is no equipment check during the match. How is he going to be found in or out of compliance if he isn't checked by anyone?

Second part: Now suppose some of the other members of the division observe him using (innocently at this point) said advantageous equipment on the second to last stage. They point out his mistake and inform him he is not abiding by the rules of his stated division. So far so good- someone is screwed up and corrected. The other members do not inform match staff (big mistake here.) Is there is requirement to self-report? I couldn't find on in USPSA MG rules, other than bringing discredit to the sport.

Part Three: He shoots the remaining stages and stays mum about the division infraction. Only when scores are posted at the final banquet do shooters realize he did not self-report, and bring it up (finally) to the match staff. Since all scores are in and certified they are told 'there's nothing that can be done.' Shooter is talked to by match staff and claims the rulebook, dated the first of the year for example, was not updated several weeks before. Said shooter ends up winning the division by a large margin and refuses to acknowledge the discrepancy publicly. Following this, he accepts the trophy and items from the prize table. At what point is this considered cheating? What should the recourse be?

In my opinion, I think there should be three rules changes:

1: Mandate equipment check by match officials.

2: Competitors acknowledge during the safety waivier signing, they understand and have read the latest rules.

3: Anyone found to have been in blatant violation of the rules after the fact (talking major competitive advantage, not 1mm too-long magazines, for example) should be admonished /banned from competition.

Thoughts?

[remoandiris]

1. IPSC has equipment check requirements at each stage and it doesn't take long. Since MG has more equipment, possibly have the check at just the first stage and a rule that equipment changes after the initial check must have RM approval.

2. IMO, competitor's are required to understand the rules. Period. Doesn't matter if a change was implemented 1 day prior.

3. Once a competitor is found to be in violation of division rules, bump to the applicable division or shoot for no score.

You know the shooter cheated. Others at the banquet know he cheated. It is likely his reputation with those people is beyond repair. He may not care. IMO, staff made the wrong decision by saying there is nothing to be done. There are plenty of delays in posting scores and in this case, I think competitors would have understood.

[Matt S]

To summarize, or re-phrase to make certain I understand: A shooter is entered in the wrong category - either willfully, or accidentally - and he/she shoots the match using the wrong equipment for the declared category (or division) - even after the shooter was informed of their 'error'. Additionally, the match staff - who may have been ignorant of the 'discrepant behavior' until after the match - didn't want to address the issue in any way. Disappointingly interesting.

In my opinion only, the shooter in question is of extremely low character, and integrity. Second, the ability for this behavior to creep into the game must be stopped immediately. I do not have a fool-proof, sure-fire way to suggest, though. Possibly, we take the lead from some of the matches held in yesteryear, where you could be tapped on the shoulder at any time, and escorted to a designated area for an equipment check, gun weigh-in, chrono, etc. These notices were not pre-scheduled. We never knew when an RO would tap us.

I do like your suggestion of some sort of acknowledgement of the current rules prior to the match starting. Maybe not on the liability waiver, but next to your name on the check-in listing may be acceptable.

Last thought - in the major matches, the shooters are required to sign or initial their scorecards after each stage. These scorecards (usually) state name and division, or category. In the example you're citing above, effectively this shooter signed 'incorrect' scorecards for each stage fired. In the game of golf, if a competitor signs an incorrect scorecard, he/she is automatically DQ'd. It may sound harsh, but maybe it's something to consider.

[Sarge]

I think he cheated from the time he fired his first shot. He knew exactly what he was doing in my opinion.

If past threads are any indication according to the masses here they know a shooter should admit to wrongdoing immediately. But then again many past threads say nothing like this ever happens when we all know it happens more than we want to admit.

[StraightUp_OG]

Unsportsman like conduct should be enforceable right up to the prize table. DQ IMHO

“Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching.”

(Possibly)-C.S. Lewis

Edited May 2, 2013 by StraightUp_OG

[Lead-Head]

What was the equipment discrepancy? As long as we are trashing this guy, we might as well get specifics.

If it was an obvious violation that he took advantage of purposefully, maybe he should be trashed.

[warpspeed]

Come on guys. You all know exactly how this is going to end. If not sure, go read the FNS-9 Competition threads and see.

Shooter had his scores posted, 1 hour passed with no one challenging them and they stand. Sorry. That's the rules.

Following this, he accepts the trophy and items from the prize table. At what point is this considered cheating? What should the recourse be?

In my opinion, I think there should be three rules changes:

1: Mandate equipment check by match officials. Should be standard practice. Sounds like ROs did not do their job

2: Competitors acknowledge during the safety waivier signing, they understand and have read the latest rules. I like it. Surprised it is not part of the application.

3: Anyone found to have been in blatant violation of the rules after the fact (talking major competitive advantage, not 1mm too-long magazines, for example) should be admonished /banned from competition. Sadly, there will never be anything close to it put in the rule book by the current BoD.

Edited May 2, 2013 by warpspeed

[diablodawg]

I guess I missed it- where is the one hour rule?

[BritinUSA]

The one hour is the period of time after the match for the competitors to verify their scores. Appeals may be made at any time during that hour:

1. 9.8.3 If a competitor detects an error in the provisional results at the end of the match, they must file an appeal with the Stats Officer not later than 1 hour after the results are posted. If the appeal is not filed within the time limit, the posted scores will stand and the appeal will be dis- missed.

[Neomet]

I am a bit confused why the ROs didn't notice the equipment violation unless they thought he was competing in the appropriate division. They should have caught the infraction. (As in the Svetlana hip hugger belt bump to Open at the Production nats.)

[warpspeed]

I am a bit confused why the ROs didn't notice the equipment violation unless they thought he was competing in the appropriate division. They should have caught the infraction. (As in the Svetlana hip hugger belt bump to Open at the Production nats.)

Depending on the violation, they may not be aware of it.

[BritinUSA]

I am a bit confused why the ROs didn't notice the equipment violation unless they thought he was competing in the appropriate division. They should have caught the infraction. (As in the Svetlana hip hugger belt bump to Open at the Production nats.)

Right, the RO's should have picked this up, the division is marked on the score-sheet. As the sheet is filled out by the scorer they should be aware of the division that the competitor is in. For example, if the division does not allow a scope and there is one attached to the gun then this is an obvious infraction.

As you mention something similar happened with the belt-loop issue at the Production Nationals.

Other issues with guns are normally picked up by the Chronoman during the chronograph stage. Was there a chrono stage at this match (if so are long guns checked at this point ?)

Edited May 2, 2013 by BritinUSA

[BritinUSA]

Second part: Now suppose some of the other members of the division observe him using (innocently at this point) said advantageous equipment on the second to last stage. They point out his mistake and inform him he is not abiding by the rules of his stated division. So far so good- someone is screwed up and corrected. The other members do not inform match staff (big mistake here.) Is there is requirement to self-report? I couldn't find on in USPSA MG rules, other than bringing discredit to the sport.

After the shooter has been told of the infraction I think the other competitors should have waited at the stage to see if he would inform the RO's of the infraction.

If not then I think a third party arbitration would be called for and the competitor DQ'ed for unsportsmanlike conduct. The DQ is warranted because by refusing to inform the RO's of what he now knows is an infraction he has indicated his intention to cheat.

If he had informed the RO's as soon as he was made aware of the infraction then he deserves the benefit of the doubt and be allowed to continue in Open.

Edited May 2, 2013 by BritinUSA

[swedge58]

Rules vs Integrity? Hmmmm. Unfortunately some have it and some don't. It's something that happens in every sport. Further more sometimes the rules seem to benefit the ones without. Are they really winners in the end???

[remoandiris]

They should have caught the infraction. (As in the Svetlana hip hugger belt bump to Open at the Production nats.)

At what point in the match was the belt violation caught? I know it wasn't at the first stage. I also know it wasn't at the second stage. In other words, it is easy for things to be missed, and the further into the match it is probable the ROs will think issues have already been caught earlier.

I worked Area 1 last year and a vigilant RO working with me caught a violation on day 2. It was just sheer luck he noticed. The other ROs that day and on day 1 missed it.

Edited May 2, 2013 by remoandiris

[latech15]

Just to clarify for everybody - the OP is talking about me.

I willfully admit and accept the fact that I used, and was informed that the use of, my superhuman speed, cat like agility, expert gun handling skills, and devastating good looks in an effort to deliberately advance myself at my latest match. While I will agree that all of these traits SHOULD put me in at least open, there are currently no rules against my having these abilities and utilizing them in whatever division I choose.

There were several times when I heard, "That out to be illegal", "Wow, did you see that?", and "That's not even fair!" I heard all of those comments both while I was shooting and again when the shooting was over.

I just can't turn it off, gentlemen and I won't apologize for the awesomeness portrayed after the beep. Like Lady Gaga, "I was born this way."

Thanks, and I hope there are no hard feelings.

[Steve RA]

Out of wild curiosity and ignoring the above, what was the infraction ???

[Chuck Anderson]

Out of wild curiosity and ignoring the above, what was the infraction ???

Red dot on Heavy Metal Limited rifle.

[Steve RA]

Ok, thanks !

Seems like that would be fairly easy for an RO to spot ???

[RammerJammer]

Just to clarify for everybody - the OP is talking about me.

I willfully admit and accept the fact that I used, and was informed that the use of, my superhuman speed, cat like agility, expert gun handling skills, and devastating good looks in an effort to deliberately advance myself at my latest match. While I will agree that all of these traits SHOULD put me in at least open, there are currently no rules against my having these abilities and utilizing them in whatever division I choose.

There were several times when I heard, "That out to be illegal", "Wow, did you see that?", and "That's not even fair!" I heard all of those comments both while I was shooting and again when the shooting was over.

I just can't turn it off, gentlemen and I won't apologize for the awesomeness portrayed after the beep. Like Lady Gaga, "I was born this way."

Thanks, and I hope there are no hard feelings.

Haters gone hate...

[latech15]

Yeah, that would be fairly easy to check. Was he shooting one on each or double tapping? I wonder if they thought it was limited instead of HM limited.

[JayWord]

To answer several questions.

1. No chrono as it is not required under time plus scoring.

2. Limited Rifle allows one non-magnifying optic, HM limited does not.

3. Once the one hour score review period is up the scores are final and cannot be appealed.

Yes, maybe a RO should have caught it, but people change divisions after the labels are printed for a variety of reasons. Also, if the shooter thought he was following he rules, he may have told a RO he was in compliance if asked. If the staff would have been informed anytime during the match the shooter would have been properly placed in Open. That did not happen until it was way too late to resolve under the rules.

Jay Worden RM2 USPSA MG Nationals.

[StealthyBlagga]

The first line of defense is the RO. If match officials don't shoot 3-Gun themselves, the risk of missing equipment discrepancies is elevated considerably. Match Directors/Range Masters should do their best to distribute rules-savvy individuals as staff across the match.

If other competitors notice equipment discrepancies, they should consider it their obligation to notify a match official immediately. This is not kindergarten or jail - snitches don't get stitches in our sport. The integrity of our match results depend on us policing our own. Sorry, it's no good complaining after the protest period.

Edited May 2, 2013 by StealthyBlagga

[MarkCO]

That did not happen until it was way too late to resolve under the rules.

Would you please cite the rule you are using?

[Jaxshooter]

Since as has been stated those are the rules then the rules need to be changed. They should read that any competitor using equipment not allowed in the Division they have entered will be DQd upon discovery of the violation irrelevant to any othe rules or time limits. Who ever this was should be suspended for competition for at least 6 months if not longer and should have to return all awards received. The shooters in this Division should be moved up in the standings.