Clearing House for New Division Ideas

[beltjones]

I have some ideas to change certain divisions, and I know everyone else does too. Let's throw a bunch of ideas at the board and see what sticks.

Idea 1: Replace L10 with Modified. With the rising popularity of optics on carry guns, it might make sense to give these people a place to play, and also use "the crucible of competition" to shape how these products are marketed in the future.

Idea 2: At the same time, replace Single Stack with "Browning." The idea is to have SS 1911s compete with the Hi-Powers. You could limit the 1911s to 10 round magazines and limit the Hi-Powers to 13.

What other hare-brained ideas does everyone have?

[lee blackman]

Limited-Optic Division: Optics must be mounted to slide, and co-witnessed. Because I'm seeing more and more carry guns like that. It used to be a custom thing, but S&W introduced a factory produced C.O.R.E. pistols already optic ready for an RMR or other similar sight co-witnessed to the iron sights.

Have a "ported barrel" option in all divisions. Basically jumping a major gun to minor (minor staying in minor) scoring if they use, but allowing the use of a ported barrel that does not extend beyond the slide. It may seem a useless option, but for those who show up with a Glock 22c or other gun that has porting as a duty sidearm and want to compete, but dont want to be thrown to the wolves in open.

[MarkCO]

Andrew, I like your Idea 1. Then again, changing L10 to anything other than 10 rounds is going to be a difficult sell right now. While I see L10 as the least relevant division, we may have several more states added to the restricted magazine capacity group and so for that reason alone, leaving it unchanged and even undiscussed for a while seems like a good path.

However, I really think SS should remain SS without tinkering. Mixing PFs and round counts is problematic and it would eventually become the Hi-Power division. There might be some nostalgia to SS, but that is okay. We also now have a small group jonesing for changing up revo in a similar vein.

Limited Optics, ported limited...go play in Open. We already have 6 divisions, Limited and Open being fairly dominant with long estabilshed division requireemnts. I for one would rather have 4 or 5 divisions, not more, and not with opening up the rules to blur the differences between them.

I have been thinking about how L10 and SS could be combined since there are some similarities, but again it becomes a delicate balance of whose toes do you step on and what is the purpose of the tinkering.

I stopped by the gunstore the other day and interviewed 20 newer gun owners/buyers...While a few seemed interested in Limited or Open, the vast majority said if they shot a match, SS or Production sounded like the division they would prefer. About half asked if they could shoot something smaller than 9mm and with 5 to 7 rounds. I doubt BUG division is viable for USPSA at this point. "Carry" guns are not really shot in USPSA in any significnat numbers, but then again, if someone wants to do so, there is no prohibition on that.

[mdschappell]

I think production needs a revamp. No single actions, but if it otherwise fits into a "box" and a particular Max weight, it should be permitted. I also find it odd that lots of internal mods that provide an advantage are allowed, but no external mods. I often thought the IDPA rules made more sense than uspsa rules. 15 rd mags would be lots of fun, too.

[beltjones]

I think production needs a revamp. No single actions, but if it otherwise fits into a "box" and a particular Max weight, it should be permitted. I also find it odd that lots of internal mods that provide an advantage are allowed, but no external mods. I often thought the IDPA rules made more sense than uspsa rules. 15 rd mags would be lots of fun, too.

There are no SAs allowed. Or do you mean DA/SAs? Or maybe you mean XDs?

[mdschappell]

Sorry, that's what I meant..... don't allow single actions.

[jester121]

Big Boy Division -- min 225 power factor, catering to 50 AE/S&W, 44 magnum, all the .45x variants, hot 10mm loads, etc.

One shot per target, each hit counts for 2x what Major scores, to make up for less capacity and more expensive ammo. No steel calibrations permitted, if you touch the popper it's going to fall for sure.

[Racer377]

Big Boy Division -- min 225 power factor, catering to 50 AE/S&W, 44 magnum, all the .45x variants, hot 10mm loads, etc.

One shot per target, each hit counts for 2x what Major scores, to make up for less capacity and more expensive ammo. No steel calibrations permitted, if you touch the popper it's going to fall for sure.

Not quite that extreme, but I had a half-baked idea that Vis in DVC ought to get more weight. Maybe a major plus scoring or some sort of HF weighted by PF or something along those lines. This might open up gun selection options having a 3rd variable to consider. Maybe 45 limited guns would actually be viable? Maybe Revo would start seeing guys shooting 629s and redhawks with full bore 44 instead of the ubiquitous 625? Maybe 40 would be an option in Open? If nothing else it would be interesting to see how the capacity vs. power dynamic shapes up.

[polizei1]

I only shoot single stack...but from a complete competitive stand-point, I don't see how striker fired and DA/SA are in the same division. To me, that seems like the competitive advantage goes to the DA/SA guys. However, I understand it comes down to the shooter.

I know it's "lame," but I would actually like to see a .22 division in USPSA. There would be issues with steel, but maybe instead of falling steel, just use static like Steel Challenge. I also think this would be good for junior shooters and women (and men) who like the low cost and low recoil of the .22 vs. 9mm, .40, etc.

Edited February 5, 2013 by polizei1

[Joe4d]

separating guns by triggers make no sense, especially when you throw striker fired guns in the mix. Just look at the scores of IDPA SSP and ESP... No reason guns like the Hipower shouldnt be able to shoot production.

[sperman]

I think production needs a revamp.

[sarcasm]

yeah. Production is really struggling. We need to change it up to try and attract some shooters to that division.

[/sarcasm]

[MarkCO]

I know it's "lame," but I would actually like to see a .22 division in USPSA. There would be issues with steel, but maybe instead of falling steel, just use static like Steel Challenge. I also think this would be good for junior shooters and women (and men) who like the low cost and low recoil of the .22 vs. 9mm, .40, etc.

Not lame at all, just no place for it in USPSA. It is called Rimfire Challenge, and there are some change in the works to make it a little more dynamic. We ran a "test" match Saturday and everyone really enjoyed it...kids, new shooters, veteran 3Guners, USPSA pistol shooters alike.

Drifting off.

[bikerburgess]

I would like to see single stack allow other single stack pistols to play think Sig 220, S+W 645,610 ect. I don't think anything is going to unseat the 1911 as the "best" pistol for the division but it would be nice to be able to shoot one of the other single stack pistol designs in a slightly more competitive division.

Mike

[ctay]

Opening up production to guns like the hipower or 9MM single stacks would be cool.

It seems like not many like the idea but I really like the idea of optics outside of open. This is becoming more and more common on "regular" guns not just "game" guns. I would like to see a division that recognizes that fact.

[Airic]

I know it's "lame," but I would actually like to see a .22 division in USPSA. There would be issues with steel, but maybe instead of falling steel, just use static like Steel Challenge. I also think this would be good for junior shooters and women (and men) who like the low cost and low recoil of the .22 vs. 9mm, .40, etc.

Not lame at all, just no place for it in USPSA. It is called Rimfire Challenge, and there are some change in the works to make it a little more dynamic. We ran a "test" match Saturday and everyone really enjoyed it...kids, new shooters, veteran 3Guners, USPSA pistol shooters alike.

Drifting off.

I disagree. Rimfire is wildly popular in steel challenge and its what attracts all of our new shooters. Those people want to shoot uspsa but ALOT of them cannot justify the expense of it. They just cant find/afford ammo and are dont want to jump right into reloading (if they can find components).

Also, this rimfire challenge is just another match that needs a day and staff to run it. A lot of ranges dont have the slot or staff to run another one, why not combine it with a match that is already running?

[caspian guy]

I always liked the idea of modified so maybe there should be a place for limited optic (or something) for guns .40 or better with a dot on the slide in a rear sight mount or buried in the slide (no frame mounts). Ported barrel or not...maybe it needs to fit in a box?

I have seen several folks in the last year show up at my matches with guns with dots on the slide (M&Ps or Glocks) so this must be becoming more mainstream.

[sperman]

IMO, there is already a division for high dollar guns with optics and ports. If you want another optics division, it needs to be on an affordable platform, like a production gun.

[Sarge]

rimfire USPSA? No way. It would have to be a separate match. Steel would be the biggest issue. Not compatible with our current rules for scoring steel. Man that would be some tiny holes to score too.

[Chris Keen]

rimfire USPSA? No way. It would have to be a separate match. Steel would be the biggest issue. Not compatible with our current rules for scoring steel. Man that would be some tiny holes to score too.

How do you think they score .223 holes in 3-Gun & Multigun? And why couldn't we paint steel between each shooter?

Hint, hint: Look at your plastic Overlay cards from USPSA! They have .22 holes on them.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Chris Keen

[caspian guy]

IMO, there is already a division for high dollar guns with optics and ports. If you want another optics division, it needs to be on an affordable platform, like a production gun.

Agreed...

[Steve RA]

What Robbie - TGO - and I agreed on in a prior post.

TGO

Gunga la gunga.....

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Posted Yesterday, 09:30 PM

Steve RA, on 04 February 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

No Doug (real old joke) I'm not bitter, just thought I'd add something new to the discussion and see how other people felt about it.

As far as the optics go, I suggested that about Senior and Super Senior classes some time back and everyone seemed to think that the answer was to shoot Open. Thats ok, but if you have managed to advance to Senior or Super Senior you probably could not be very competitive in Open, especially if you just wanted to shoot your Single Stack gun. I even suggested that it would have to be a slide mounted dot so you could still use the same holster and gear.

I agree 100% with this!!!

Rob Leatham

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To amplify slightly, It would not require any new divisions, you would just agree - if you had an optic - that you were only in competition with other Seniors, Super Seniors using optics. After all, Open class is open to optics or iron sights, it's just that most in the class now use optics. It's possible that most S and SS would eventually use dots, also it would keep more people in the sport, more match fees and the possibility of more young people being introduced to the sport if their - mostly - grand parents participated in the sport. It was mentioned that all slide mounted dots don't hold up, more people using them might speed up improvements and I seem to remember a number of posts complaining about frame mounted optics failing also.

[OUshooter]

So for. 22 we need to have 4 new divisions, and we scratch the V?

1) revo. 22

2) L-10 .22

3) Lim .22

4) open .22

The logistics of adding RF are just too great. I don't get a special lane to drive 90mph to work in, I have to shlep along with everyone else.

I can see some marriage of SS and L10.

Edited February 6, 2013 by OUshooter

[Chris iliff]

So for. 22 we need to have 4 new divisions, and we scratch the V?

1) revo. 22

2) L-10 .22

3) Lim .22

4) open .22

The logistics of adding RF are just too great. I don't get a special lane to drive 90mph to work in, I have to shlep along with everyone else.

I can see some marriage of SS and L10.

Long time proponent of a .22 division. Never heard an argument that couldn't be solved with a little thought. Iron sight/optic sight is all that's necessary as far as dividing it up. Some thought would have to go into steel, but not much. Maybe a little in capacity, but again fairly easy to overcome.

I shot with a jr shooter one time and everyone let him use his optic sighted .22. What a day that young man had. Smiles, smiles, smiles. Convert for life.

Never understood the naysayers. Yes there are games for the .22, but none as adrenaline pumping as uspsa IMHO, you'd get shooters for life.

[JerryShoots]

If only you could get beyond the inherent 22 problem (steel knockdowns activating movers) you could do it no problem. We tried it once with an "optional" bowling pin with a string on it as a backup activator. The idea was if you weren't running a 22 you hit the steel activator. If you were running a 22 you had to knock the bowling pin off the post and when it fell it set off the same mover (swinger, clamshell etc). It actually went really well. The only other problem we had was some of us were going so fast with the 22 we got way ahead of the RO and the timer lost us. Leaving the timer in the last position on the CoF with a remote activator of some kind could solve that.

The upshot was that it let a lot of us bring our kids, grandkids or nephews/nieces and let them shoot, try again if they goofed up and just plain go again if they wanted to without breaking the bank on ammo. For those of us adults that took it more seriously we scored it all minor and started from low ready since some 22's just don't have appropriate holster options.

I did notice that 1911's and Glocks with 22 kits won far and away over Rugers, Buckmarks and such. This was a direct result of mag changes. The older Rugers and the Hi Standards with Euro mag releases on the butt of the pistol got hosed.

It's doable and I agree that it's needed. Not to mention it's just really really reallllly fun!

[technetium-99m]

I see several inherent issues with 22's. Most don't have holsters available, mag pouches are not available as far as I know, you cannot use steel to activate props, and timers can struggle to pick up shots.

I have always thought that steel challenge was the place for 22's. If an action 22 match is desired locally then clubs could run that along with their USPSA match and just leave the poppers down/props activated and run shooters. Score it separately as minor and let people see where they stand in the overalls. But I am against starting 22 USPSA divisions as I think it is not in line with the principles of the sport.

Edited February 6, 2013 by technetium-99m