baparker13 Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Ha good one! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 By that logic then, there should only be two divisions ...production and open. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Not sure what the unspoken assumptions are or how you got to that conclusion. The purpose of the new division seems to be to encourage innovation of handguns with optical sights. We already have had a division doing that for 20 years. It's called Open. The logical distinctions between the divisions that we have, other than Limited 10, are pretty straight forward, and even L10 has a historical, albeit obsolete, rationale. But I know of no example in our history where we've tried to create a division in order to create an arms race rather than to eliminate one or to try to add competitive equity. What are we alleviating? A few people won't have to buy magazine extensions for their G17s with an optic? Is that the kind of arms race that justified the creation of a new division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Carry Optics is a terrible name, this isn't IDPA... So the point of the weight limit is to prevent another division dominated by CZs and Tanfos? But is it really the weight of them that makes them so popular in Production? I don't have one, but when shooting minor I don't think the weight makes much of a difference; at least I don't think it matters for me when comparing my G34 to my 9mm 1911s. I think it's more the trigger on the tuned CZs and Tanfos that makes them so popular in Production, right? So maybe instead of a weight limit we should have a minimum trigger pull, in both DA and SA, of say 4.5 or 5 lbs. That way you can still use your CZ, but can't have that amazing ~2lb. trigger like on your Production gun. I'd think this might help "even the playing field" compared to the polymer guns they're trying to market this new division towards while still allowing steel framed guns if that's your preferred platform. Thoughts? LolThere are a LOT of plastic gamer triggers out there, I suggest you don your flame suit immediately! Steel guns are not the only ones with gamer triggers. One of the reasons the CZ's and Tanfoglio's dominate IPSC is they can meet the 5# minimum first shot trigger pull. With the plastic gamers, they are stuck with a 5# pull every shot. There, that is the difference. It's not the weight, it's not the cost. (flame suit ready )I know that's the IPSC rule and that's why I said make a minimum trigger pull for both DA and SA. And I know it's not just the steel guns that can be tuned to have great triggers; this rule would apply to all guns. I think it'd even out any advantage the trigger could have and then it's more about choosing whatever gun you prefer and not just about which can be modded to have the best trigger. I'd also support adding this rule to Production, but that's a discussion for another thread. I've tried the trigger on a CZ Custom gun and it would rival a nice 1911 trigger; that certainly doesn't seem like a "production" trigger to me... So production triggers are supposed to be sub optimum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baparker13 Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 By that logic then, there should only be two divisions ...production and open. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Not sure what the unspoken assumptions are or how you got to that conclusion. The purpose of the new division seems to be to encourage innovation of handguns with optical sights. We already have had a division doing that for 20 years. It's called Open. The logical distinctions between the divisions that we have, other than Limited 10, are pretty straight forward, and even L10 has a historical, albeit obsolete, rationale. But I know of no example in our history where we've tried to create a division in order to create an arms race rather than to eliminate one or to try to add competitive equity. What are we alleviating? A few people won't have to buy magazine extensions for their G17s with an optic? Is that the kind of arms race that justified the creation of a new division? In a word yes. So maybe I misunderstand the arms race. No mag extensions, no mag well, no slide racker , no comp, etc. seems like arms race in reverse. I like what you said about innovation. The innovation of red dots is trickling down into other areas. Much like anti-lock brakes coming from Formula 1 racing into your Buick. But one wouldn't mistake a Buick for a Ferrari much like a G19 with an RMR isn't an open race gun. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 (edited) In a word yes. So maybe I misunderstand the arms race. No mag extensions, no mag well, no slide racker , no comp, etc. seems like arms race in reverse.I like what you said about innovation. The innovation of red dots is trickling down into other areas. Much like anti-lock brakes coming from Formula 1 racing into your Buick. But one wouldn't mistake a Buick for a Ferrari much like a G19 with an RMR isn't an open race gun. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Arms race in reverse? You really think people are going to remove their slide racker, magwell, and extensions, and start shooting WO instead of Open? Red dots are trickling anywhere on pistols. I see law enforcement officers every day at work. I know of only one who carries a gun with an optic on it. I don't like antilock brakes either. And I don't drive a Buick. A Glock 19 with an optic is an open gun. The HHF differences between welfare optics and real open will be indistinguishable if people actually shoot this division. Just like the HHF differences between L10 and Single Stack are indistinguishable, despite the fact that some classifiers require reloading and it's easier to reload a double stack than a single stack. There are meaningful differences in performance between a Ferrari and any Buick ever manufactured. There is really no such distinction in WO. If Bob Vogel can beat us all with a limited gun, certainly someone with a G19 and a dot can hang in real open. Edited July 26, 2015 by twodownzero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baparker13 Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 You're right I was thinking of going from production into carry optics not the other way. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 I have shot a production gun with an optic in several matches already, it is nothing like an open gun. Even with minor loads, a production guns muzzle rises and falls. No comp makes a huge difference. This is production with an optic, or it was intended to be until a group CLAIMING to be representatives of their respective areas members voted in a BS 35 oz rule! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 So production triggers are supposed to be sub optimum? Correct . Well aren't they really already sub-optimal since I think most would agree that the "optimal" trigger is found on a 1911. But yes, I do think Production triggers should be more like what's found on say an actual "production" gun that you'd find in any local gun store...but this is a discussion for another thread. Back to Carry Optics (we really gotta do something about this name), for those of you shooting steel guns, wouldn't you rather have to deal with a heavier trigger than have your preferred gun completely banned because it's over weight? And if we are really going to stick with the name Carry Optics then a minimum trigger pull makes even more sense as I doubt there are many people out there carrying guns with 2lb. triggers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 you seem to think that "Production" means the guns need to be sub par some how .... I'm sorry that my CZ is mechanically more accurate & has a better trigger then a Glock but it certainly is not a custom built 2011 like you find in open. It is a factory built gun. There are many guns on the Production list that are very different from each other in all sorts of ways. It's too bad out Board saw fit to take the original idea (Production guns with a slide mounted optic) and turn it into something completely different ... Carry Optic guns .... or should I say Plastic Carry Optic Division .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leas327 Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 I am glad the direction the board has taken on this. They have made a choice to provide a division that caters to what manufacturers currently believe will be the next big trend. Now those products have a place to be tested against each other in conditions that will provide honest feedback about what works and what doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 I am glad the direction the board has taken on this. They have made a choice to provide a division that caters to what manufacturers currently believe will be the next big trend. Now those products have a place to be tested against each other in conditions that will provide honest feedback about what works and what doesn't.How does making a restrictive rule set allow one to see what works and what doesn't? I belive it will show what works but only within the narrow window the rule allow not what will work best for the compact optic gun niche in general Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onepocket Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Yeah. Why the restrictive rule set they should be able to put there optics where they want. Have comps and huge 30 round mags and slide rackers. Oh yeah they already.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 So by that logic we would have been more successful instead of splitting into open and limited years ago we had split into open and production? If it didn't fit production you could just shoot open right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Maybe it's to entice the old folks who can't see as well as they once could - or run as fast - continue to play the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansedgli Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Continue to play or continue to be competitive? They could play in open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Continue to play or continue to be competitive? They could play in open. If this division turns out to be anything like normal production it will be the same story there playing but not competitive. Ive always thought production was supposed to be beginners with pretty stock guns. Not some of the best shooters with highly modified ones, that's what limited and open should be for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 I posted this in another thread on this but it probably fits more with the discussions here. Is this actually a division created for aging eyes and to keep current with new technology? The exclusion of the two dominant Production class winning platforms (CZ/Tanfo) suggests this is a division created for the plastic guns to be routinely at the top of the leader board (since they are the only ones allowed). I don't really have any heartburn either way as if I use a dot I would rather shoot my open pistol but this ain't Production with a dot. It's plastic guns with a dot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Continue to play or continue to be competitive? They could play in open. This argument is getting old. Do you shoot a Production gun shooting minor with 10 round mags in Open? Or a 1911 or revolver? Or do you choose to shoot them in a division better suited for those types of guns? Do you think it's a good idea to eliminate all divisions besides Open, because that's what this type of statement sounds like to me. I am glad the direction the board has taken on this. They have made a choice to provide a division that caters to what manufacturers currently believe will be the next big trend. Now those products have a place to be tested against each other in conditions that will provide honest feedback about what works and what doesn't. By this next big trend I'm assuming you're referring to outside of USPSA, i.e., the trend of using slide mounted optics on self defense and carry guns? If so, all those guns have milled slide so you can have back up iron sights; the trend doesn't really include mini red dots on dovetail mounts that replace the rear sight or something similar to that. So should this new division allow those dovetail mounts or require a milled slide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansedgli Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 If I wanted to "play" I'd shoot my WO gun in open. Otherwise I'd buy a gun that suited a division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Continue to play or continue to be competitive? They could play in open. If this division turns out to be anything like normal production it will be the same story there playing but not competitive. Ive always thought production was supposed to be beginners with pretty stock guns. Not some of the best shooters with highly modified ones, that's what limited and open should be for. I don't know where people got this idea. Production was never intended to be a "beginners" division. The unique features of Production are that there are no single action guns, no major power factor, 10 round mags, and restrictive rig rules. There really never were rules requiring that production shooters shoot their gun as it came out of the box. There is nothing about Production that screams "beginner." It is just one more division with a unique set of rules. If anything, shooting Production is harder than shooting Limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onepocket Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) So by that logic we would have been more successful instead of splitting into open and limited years ago we had split into open and production? If it didn't fit production you could just shoot open right.[/quote No that is not what saying. I'm saying there is already a division for that. No disrespect, but if your old and can't see build a WO how ever you want no rule set and shoot it in open. If your that old and can't see your not going to be competitive anyway. Edited July 27, 2015 by Onepocket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Some of you need a history lesson! Carry Optics is MUCH more in line with the founding principles of IPSC than the current Open division. If you do not like it, don't try it. Pretty simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) If you do not like it, don't try it. Pretty simple. Edited July 27, 2015 by alma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgt Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) > if you do not like it, don't try it Fair enough. I'll continue to shoot my Delta-Point Accu-Shadows Open Minor. LOVE the trigger, easy breezy on ammo, and 20% down on scoring when I don't hit an "A". But if the division ends up still-born, don't say it was because of lack of interest of red dot on a production gun. In my case it is because my production gun with a red dot is not allowed, and lack of interest in competing with a plastic gun with red dot. BTW, my 'vote' as a dues paying member is allow full production list, and let the division grow/die based on _member_ interest to participate. If the Manufacturer's want a 'spec' class, let them promote/subsidize it and let that class grow/die based on that how well they execute or generate interest around that. Edited July 27, 2015 by trgt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Continue to play or continue to be competitive? They could play in open. If this division turns out to be anything like normal production it will be the same story there playing but not competitive. Ive always thought production was supposed to be beginners with pretty stock guns. Not some of the best shooters with highly modified ones, that's what limited and open should be for. where did you come up with that? I didn't realize that Production was only for beginners and once you become a good shooter you're supposed to move to open .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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