Production optics

[atbarr]

From Rick Steele, Area 5 Director

"We talked about this at the Board meeting. We are trying to make it easy for the shooter to try the Division without putting out a lot of money. If you machine the slide for the dot and then remove the dot, you will need to fill the machined area with a plate of similar material (steel in most cases) to make it look like a production gun. That will probably depend on how deep you machine the slide. Troy McManus will be the deciding factor as we walk through the issues in this new division.

Since this is a provisional division the ruling on that may change but that is what the Board talked about at the meeting.

You can also use a dovetail mount. It will make the dot a little higher than normal sights but it is very easy to return it to a Production gun."

[baparker13]

More than 10 in the mag would have been interesting.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Forrest Halley]

For real let revolvers in! I want to shoot my 929 with a dot in carry optics! I'll give you the three rounds. Sounds like a hoot.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Forrest Halley

[mig1]

I don't shoot revolves, but I agree. They should get a chance. I've seen lots of revolvers with picatinny rails on top that would be fine for mounting optics.

[Nimitz]

Continue to play or continue to be competitive?

They could play in open.

If this division turns out to be anything like normal production it will be the same story there playing but not competitive. Ive always thought production was supposed to be beginners with pretty stock guns. Not some of the best shooters with highly modified ones, that's what limited and open should be for.

where did you come up with that? I didn't realize that Production was only for beginners and once you become a good shooter you're supposed to move to open ....

You missed the memo!

Looks like he really did miss the memo ^^

nope, that's why I now shoot an open gun .....

[Chills1994]

Has anybody actually gone to the range and tested how much faster and/or accurate a their production gun is when it is wearing a mini red dot?

As in "I shot the El Prez with my regular Glock 17 on average in 6 seconds with 5 points down. Now, with my RMR equipped Glock 17 in 5.25 seconds with zero points down on average."

What I am wondering is can you still shoot a regular iron sighted production pistol in carry optics?

Who will be the first to troll and win carry optics at a major match with an iron sighted gun?

Edited July 31, 2015 by Chills1994

[kneelingatlas]

Who will be the first to troll and win carry optics at a major match with an iron sighted gun?

That'd be awesome!

[Southpaw]

What I am wondering is can you still shoot a regular iron sighted production pistol in carry optics?

Who will be the first to troll and win carry optics at a major match with an iron sighted gun?

Clearly that'll be Vogel

I was actually thinking about doing that when there was talk of maybe making CO a 15 round limit, but now that it's the same rules as Production there's not really a point, unless one day they have separate Nationals or something like that...

[zhunter]

Has anybody actually gone to the range and tested how much faster and/or accurate a their production gun is when it is wearing a mini red dot?

As in "I shot the El Prez with my regular Glock 17 on average in 6 seconds with 5 points down. Now, with my RMR equipped Glock 17 in 5.25 seconds with zero points down on average."

What I am wondering is can you still shoot a regular iron sighted production pistol in carry optics?

Who will be the first to troll and win carry optics at a major match with an iron sighted gun?

I shot several matches and a couple of practice sessions last winter. I shot it for about 5-6 weeks. I felt I was noticeably slower on the draw, especially on hoser targets. It took me longer to find the dot, but I'm sure with more dry fire practice the index will improve. The 2 plane aspect of iron sights allows for a subconscious (?) quicker index.

But.... Once I found the dot it was much more accurate for me. Steel was faster for sure!

Slapping a dot on a production gun will not result in an immediate gain in splits and transitions. And just an obvious FYI, the dot will not make the gun go faster, that's still your job.

But it sure is nice for my 53 year old eyes.

[CoffeedrinkerinNC]

I don't really see the advantage of the optic mounted on the slide. With the slide moving, and muzzle flip during recoil, you're going to have to re-acquire the dot after every shot. At least with an open gun, you really do not lose the dot.

[trgt]

I don't really see the advantage of the optic mounted on the slide. With the slide moving, and muzzle flip during recoil, you're going to have to re-acquire the dot after every shot. At least with an open gun, you really do not lose the dot.

The dot is certainly busier between shots (DeltaPoint on Shadow slide) compared to my 'real' open gun. But it comes back and it's there for the next shot, so you aren't starting from scratch each shot. IMHO there's no advantage or even slower on targets 12 yards and in. But beyond that where you are crisping up sight focus for more difficult or longer shots, it's much faster (for me).

Edited July 31, 2015 by trgt

[Wilkenstein]

Ah yes, super excited about this. I'm assuming the MOS Glock will have to be approved separately like the CORE?

[ToddKS]

I don't really see the advantage of the optic mounted on the slide. With the slide moving, and muzzle flip during recoil, you're going to have to re-acquire the dot after every shot. At least with an open gun, you really do not lose the dot.

This will depend on your grip strength and technique. I do not lose sight of the dot while shooting my slide mounted optic. It does go up and down some but I never lose it out of the window.

[Wilkenstein]

From Rick Steele, Area 5 Director

"We talked about this at the Board meeting. We are trying to make it easy for the shooter to try the Division without putting out a lot of money. If you machine the slide for the dot and then remove the dot, you will need to fill the machined area with a plate of similar material (steel in most cases) to make it look like a production gun. That will probably depend on how deep you machine the slide. Troy McManus will be the deciding factor as we walk through the issues in this new division.

Since this is a provisional division the ruling on that may change but that is what the Board talked about at the meeting.

You can also use a dovetail mount. It will make the dot a little higher than normal sights but it is very easy to return it to a Production gun."

I do kind of have an issue with this statement in that there are many production shooters who have sold off their plastic guns in favor of >35oz steel guns. I think they may be excluding a large number of folks that would be willing to try a dot on a CZ or TF. Even though I started this thread, I don't plan on purchasing another firearm just to shoot a provisional division.

[Garmil]

From Rick Steele, Area 5 Director

"We talked about this at the Board meeting. We are trying to make it easy for the shooter to try the Division without putting out a lot of money. If you machine the slide for the dot and then remove the dot, you will need to fill the machined area with a plate of similar material (steel in most cases) to make it look like a production gun. That will probably depend on how deep you machine the slide. Troy McManus will be the deciding factor as we walk through the issues in this new division.

Since this is a provisional division the ruling on that may change but that is what the Board talked about at the meeting.

You can also use a dovetail mount. It will make the dot a little higher than normal sights but it is very easy to return it to a Production gun."

I do kind of have an issue with this statement in that there are many production shooters who have sold off their plastic guns in favor of >35oz steel guns. I think they may be excluding a large number of folks that would be willing to try a dot on a CZ or TF. Even though I started this thread, I don't plan on purchasing another firearm just to shoot a provisional division.

Shoot open?? Cz and tanfo owners can try out dots all they want.

[tdneuf]

While I'm a demi-old timer, and life member of USPSA (L419), I remember the old classes, and rules, and baby we've (USPSA) come along way since then.
I've been watching many of the sites that are commenting and following this new division. My 2 cents.
It appears that on one hand the current Pres may be attempting to appease the plastic gun manufacturing folk with a custom division.
On another hand I'd agree with the thought that within a given division certain guns may at times appear to take over in the winning circles. Only time will truly tell, and someone will inevitably make a better mouse trap at some point in time. It's obvious, right now, the CZ design (considered one of the best for a really long time) has the upper hand in production class.
USPSA/IPSC and all the associated organizations and memberships thereof have pushed the manufactures for years to develop, and we've gotten to a point of stagnation over the recent years. Recently its the manufactures who have dictated what's coming out.
I think this (production optics) is part of a new phase of timeless change in development, which belongs to the independents and the shooter/developers of our industry and the shooting world in general.
With that in mind, limiting the optics to the slide (very expensive to replace), does the exact same thing as limiting the weight and effectively creating a custom class for certain manufactures. So it's kinda like a double whammy!
If USPSA were truly interested in expanding the optic division, they would allow it to include all production guns and external RAIL mounted optics as well. This would allow the shooter to only have to purchase one gun, which they could use in, production, production optic & IDPA. And ultimately it's a training platform to move up to Open class, if they wanted to afford it.

[zhunter]

While I'm a demi-old timer, and life member of USPSA (L419), I remember the old classes, and rules, and baby we've (USPSA) come along way since then.

I've been watching many of the sites that are commenting and following this new division. My 2 cents.

It appears that on one hand the current Pres may be attempting to appease the plastic gun manufacturing folk with a custom division.

On another hand I'd agree with the thought that within a given division certain guns may at times appear to take over in the winning circles. Only time will truly tell, and someone will inevitably make a better mouse trap at some point in time. It's obvious, right now, the CZ design (considered one of the best for a really long time) has the upper hand in production class.

USPSA/IPSC and all the associated organizations and memberships thereof have pushed the manufactures for years to develop, and we've gotten to a point of stagnation over the recent years. Recently its the manufactures who have dictated what's coming out.

I think this (production optics) is part of a new phase of timeless change in development, which belongs to the independents and the shooter/developers of our industry and the shooting world in general.

With that in mind, limiting the optics to the slide (very expensive to replace), does the exact same thing as limiting the weight and effectively creating a custom class for certain manufactures. So it's kinda like a double whammy!

If USPSA were truly interested in expanding the optic division, they would allow it to include all production guns and external RAIL mounted optics as well. This would allow the shooter to only have to purchase one gun, which they could use in, production, production optic & IDPA. And ultimately it's a training platform to move up to Open class, if they wanted to afford it.

I have zero interest in "a training platform to move up to Open"

If I wanted to shoot Open I would already be shooting it. I don't think that was the premise behind this proposal at all. With all due respect, have you read this thread? And yes I know it's super long.

[atbarr]

A couple of years ago, I purchased a Zev Open Glock. When I finally got the PF high enough for the comp to work, the recoil did a job on my arthritic hands and wrists. I didn't try shooting Open with minor PF, that would be foolish.

Now I need to decide which one of my Glocks, I'm putting the RMR on. Right now I shoot Production with either my G21, G30, or G41. I also have a G17 and G19, but really like the larger holes.

I'm looking forward to shooting this Division.

[alma]

My Open Glock running major PF Washington fun until I cracked the slide about 3k rounds in. I am really not interested in Open any more.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Why not just call it slide mounted optics division, scored minor, 10 round mags and use any pistol you have? No weight limits or approved list. If you want to use a Glock go ahead, if you want to use a STI with slide mounted optic go ahead. No optic and iron sights go ahead. Revolvers could play as well. That way everyone can play. Thanks, Eric

[BadShot]

Hello: Why not just call it slide mounted optics division, scored minor, 10 round mags and use any pistol you have? No weight limits or approved list. If you want to use a Glock go ahead, if you want to use a STI with slide mounted optic go ahead. No optic and iron sights go ahead. Revolvers could play as well. That way everyone can play. Thanks, Eric

There's the answer that I'm looking for. For now, I'll put my RTS2 on my 627 and play in minor open. At 63 years old the sights are pretty hard to find. Never shot a red dot before, so this should be fun.

Skip

[kmca]

Hello: Why not just call it slide mounted optics division, scored minor, 10 round mags and use any pistol you have? No weight limits or approved list. If you want to use a Glock go ahead, if you want to use a STI with slide mounted optic go ahead. No optic and iron sights go ahead. Revolvers could play as well. That way everyone can play. Thanks, Eric

There's the answer that I'm looking for. For now, I'll put my RTS2 on my 627 and play in minor open. At 63 years old the sights are pretty hard to find. Never shot a red dot before, so this should be fun.

Skip

Oh no!! If they do that, I'll have to get another 627

[tdneuf]

While I'm a demi-old timer, and life member of USPSA (L419), I remember the old classes, and rules, and baby we've (USPSA) come along way since then.

I've been watching many of the sites that are commenting and following this new division. My 2 cents.

It appears that on one hand the current Pres may be attempting to appease the plastic gun manufacturing folk with a custom division.

On another hand I'd agree with the thought that within a given division certain guns may at times appear to take over in the winning circles. Only time will truly tell, and someone will inevitably make a better mouse trap at some point in time. It's obvious, right now, the CZ design (considered one of the best for a really long time) has the upper hand in production class.

USPSA/IPSC and all the associated organizations and memberships thereof have pushed the manufactures for years to develop, and we've gotten to a point of stagnation over the recent years. Recently its the manufactures who have dictated what's coming out.

I think this (production optics) is part of a new phase of timeless change in development, which belongs to the independents and the shooter/developers of our industry and the shooting world in general.

With that in mind, limiting the optics to the slide (very expensive to replace), does the exact same thing as limiting the weight and effectively creating a custom class for certain manufactures. So it's kinda like a double whammy!

If USPSA were truly interested in expanding the optic division, they would allow it to include all production guns and external RAIL mounted optics as well. This would allow the shooter to only have to purchase one gun, which they could use in, production, production optic & IDPA. And ultimately it's a training platform to move up to Open class, if they wanted to afford it.

I have zero interest in "a training platform to move up to Open"

If I wanted to shoot Open I would already be shooting it. I don't think that was the premise behind this proposal at all. With all due respect, have you read this thread? And yes I know it's super long.

zhunter, thanks, I was wondering if I had missed the point of the previous 70 pages of the conversation.

Beyond that, I think 'Production Optics, is the already, inevitable arrived future that we can still define and shape. I'm not in agreement with limiting the division to slide only optics at all. that's like putting watered-down gas in Porsche! Anyone that thinks this is missing the whole point of adding an optic to a production gun. IF The idea is to add an optic to a production (stock gun (ie leaning towards tactical/carry)), why does it have to ONLY be slide mounted. There are advantages (tactical & competitive) to mounting it to the frame. The slight added weight decreases recoil and improves target trackability, just for starters.

[pmt]

While I'm a demi-old timer, and life member of USPSA (L419), I remember the old classes, and rules, and baby we've (USPSA) come along way since then.

I've been watching many of the sites that are commenting and following this new division. My 2 cents.

It appears that on one hand the current Pres may be attempting to appease the plastic gun manufacturing folk with a custom division.

On another hand I'd agree with the thought that within a given division certain guns may at times appear to take over in the winning circles. Only time will truly tell, and someone will inevitably make a better mouse trap at some point in time. It's obvious, right now, the CZ design (considered one of the best for a really long time) has the upper hand in production class.

USPSA/IPSC and all the associated organizations and memberships thereof have pushed the manufactures for years to develop, and we've gotten to a point of stagnation over the recent years. Recently its the manufactures who have dictated what's coming out.

I think this (production optics) is part of a new phase of timeless change in development, which belongs to the independents and the shooter/developers of our industry and the shooting world in general.

With that in mind, limiting the optics to the slide (very expensive to replace), does the exact same thing as limiting the weight and effectively creating a custom class for certain manufactures. So it's kinda like a double whammy!

If USPSA were truly interested in expanding the optic division, they would allow it to include all production guns and external RAIL mounted optics as well. This would allow the shooter to only have to purchase one gun, which they could use in, production, production optic & IDPA. And ultimately it's a training platform to move up to Open class, if they wanted to afford it.

I have zero interest in "a training platform to move up to Open"

If I wanted to shoot Open I would already be shooting it. I don't think that was the premise behind this proposal at all. With all due respect, have you read this thread? And yes I know it's super long.

zhunter, thanks, I was wondering if I had missed the point of the previous 70 pages of the conversation.

Beyond that, I think 'Production Optics, is the already, inevitable arrived future that we can still define and shape. I'm not in agreement with limiting the division to slide only optics at all. that's like putting watered-down gas in Porsche! Anyone that thinks this is missing the whole point of adding an optic to a production gun. IF The idea is to add an optic to a production (stock gun (ie leaning towards tactical/carry)), why does it have to ONLY be slide mounted. There are advantages (tactical & competitive) to mounting it to the frame. The slight added weight decreases recoil and improves target trackability, just for starters.

Because according to the current USPSA Pres "The division rules will stay very restrictive to avoid the potential “arms race” and will keep the requirements strictly in line with industry offerings.' I doubt if any of the manufacturers will offer a frame mount or frame mounted optics.

Edited August 7, 2015 by pmt

[tdneuf]

So, to clarify, the big gun manufactures are driving the industry? The thousands of small inventors and accessory makers are not a part of the 'Industry Offerings?

So this isn't a 'provisional' (provisional - adjective - 1 arranged or existing for the present, possibly to be changed later) division.

It's a division that's been set up for certain manufactures?

The big manufactures aren't really interested in offering a solution like this. If they were they'd have already done it. Their interested in make a decent product and selling gazillions with minimal cost, highest return, and let the little accessory guys do the rest. It's called business partnership.