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Production optics


Wilkenstein

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zhunter, thanks, I was wondering if I had missed the point of the previous 70 pages of the conversation.

Beyond that, I think 'Production Optics, is the already, inevitable arrived future that we can still define and shape. I'm not in agreement with limiting the division to slide only optics at all. that's like putting watered-down gas in Porsche! Anyone that thinks this is missing the whole point of adding an optic to a production gun. IF The idea is to add an optic to a production (stock gun (ie leaning towards tactical/carry)), why does it have to ONLY be slide mounted. There are advantages (tactical & competitive) to mounting it to the frame. The slight added weight decreases recoil and improves target trackability, just for starters.

Why don't you email your Area Director, and post this on 'Our' Forum, uspsa.org?

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Area Director email, good idea. may email them all since the frame mount I'm refering to is in almost every state in the country. And most of them are owned by USPSA members.

'Our' Forum, uspsa.org? Not following you, I'm not aware (or can't see it) of a Forum on the USPSA.org website.

Thanks for the thoughts.

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Allowing frame mounted is an awful idea. That would be a big advantage over the slide mounted guns and would end up being the standard if you wanted to be as competitive as possible. Definitely keep it as is with slide mounted only.

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Area Director email, good idea. may email them all since the frame mount I'm refering to is in almost every state in the country. And most of them are owned by USPSA members.

'Our' Forum, uspsa.org? Not following you, I'm not aware (or can't see it) of a Forum on the USPSA.org website.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Sure, go to 'Member Support', then then look at the bottom left.

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From Rick Steele, Area 5 Director

"We talked about this at the Board meeting. We are trying to make it easy for the shooter to try the Division without putting out a lot of money. If you machine the slide for the dot and then remove the dot, you will need to fill the machined area with a plate of similar material (steel in most cases) to make it look like a production gun. That will probably depend on how deep you machine the slide. Troy McManus will be the deciding factor as we walk through the issues in this new division.

Since this is a provisional division the ruling on that may change but that is what the Board talked about at the meeting.

You can also use a dovetail mount. It will make the dot a little higher than normal sights but it is very easy to return it to a Production gun."

I do kind of have an issue with this statement in that there are many production shooters who have sold off their plastic guns in favor of >35oz steel guns. I think they may be excluding a large number of folks that would be willing to try a dot on a CZ or TF. Even though I started this thread, I don't plan on purchasing another firearm just to shoot a provisional division.

Exactly
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Thanks atbarr.

Just sign on, waiting for return email so I can get in.

I will definitely follow up.

alma, big advantage, kinda like CZ & TO have gotten in production class, or STI in Open?

When a better mousetrap gets the oil... why not use it?

There's other advantages to a frame mounted dot too.

It can be used on multiple guns for developing accurate loads. (original purpose of the one you see pictured)

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Thanks atbarr.

Just sign on, waiting for return email so I can get in.

I will definitely follow up.

alma, big advantage, kinda like CZ & TO have gotten in production class, or STI in Open?

When a better mousetrap gets the oil... why not use it?

There's other advantages to a frame mounted dot too.

It can be used on multiple guns for developing accurate loads. (original purpose of the one you see pictured)

Is that going to fit into a legal holster?

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Thanks atbarr.

Just sign on, waiting for return email so I can get in.

I will definitely follow up.

alma, big advantage, kinda like CZ & TO have gotten in production class, or STI in Open?

When a better mousetrap gets the oil... why not use it?

There's other advantages to a frame mounted dot too.

It can be used on multiple guns for developing accurate loads. (original purpose of the one you see pictured)

Great idea. What about allowing barrel porting or a compensator as well?

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Holsters would have to be made to conform, or slightly modify the rules. The rules would change anyway if you added frame mounted sight mount

Go shoot open and leave CO alone. It's f*#ked up enough as it is, without you finishing the job

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From Rick Steele, Area 5 Director

"We talked about this at the Board meeting. We are trying to make it easy for the shooter to try the Division without putting out a lot of money. If you machine the slide for the dot and then remove the dot, you will need to fill the machined area with a plate of similar material (steel in most cases) to make it look like a production gun. That will probably depend on how deep you machine the slide. Troy McManus will be the deciding factor as we walk through the issues in this new division.

Since this is a provisional division the ruling on that may change but that is what the Board talked about at the meeting.

You can also use a dovetail mount. It will make the dot a little higher than normal sights but it is very easy to return it to a Production gun."

I do kind of have an issue with this statement in that there are many production shooters who have sold off their plastic guns in favor of >35oz steel guns. I think they may be excluding a large number of folks that would be willing to try a dot on a CZ or TF. Even though I started this thread, I don't plan on purchasing another firearm just to shoot a provisional division.

Exactly

So if your trying to "make it easy for the shooter to try the Division without putting out a lot of money." Then my issue and point are still very valid. How 'easy' do you want to make it?

Cost of; (leaving the sight costs out, as they vary from $200 - $600)

Milling the slide ($75-$125), cover plate ($35-$75) ($120-$200) (to return to almost production) and sight. or

Springer or similar adapter ($60), sight, gunsmith costs (ouch, unknown) or your time and expertise to switch adapter and re-install rear sight or purchase another slide ($200+ if available) ($250+) (not readily available for all 'production' guns) set up to swap them out, plus fitting. or

Frame/rail mount ($75), sight & holster ($65) ($140) Ease of use, Slide on, tighten screws, have fun. Loosen screws, slide off, have fun. Oh ya, install on other gun, have more fun with both.

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72 pages and now we're debating allowing frame mounted optics :wacko:. No, just no

No kidding. Before you know it, someone will bring up some crazy minimum trigger weight idea.

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72 pages and now we're debating allowing frame mounted optics :wacko:. No, just no

No kidding. Before you know it, someone will bring up some crazy minimum trigger weight idea.

That sounds like an awesome idea!!! :devil:

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From Rick Steele, Area 5 Director

"We talked about this at the Board meeting. We are trying to make it easy for the shooter to try the Division without putting out a lot of money. If you machine the slide for the dot and then remove the dot, you will need to fill the machined area with a plate of similar material (steel in most cases) to make it look like a production gun. That will probably depend on how deep you machine the slide. Troy McManus will be the deciding factor as we walk through the issues in this new division.

Since this is a provisional division the ruling on that may change but that is what the Board talked about at the meeting.

You can also use a dovetail mount. It will make the dot a little higher than normal sights but it is very easy to return it to a Production gun."

I do kind of have an issue with this statement in that there are many production shooters who have sold off their plastic guns in favor of >35oz steel guns. I think they may be excluding a large number of folks that would be willing to try a dot on a CZ or TF. Even though I started this thread, I don't plan on purchasing another firearm just to shoot a provisional division.

Exactly

So if your trying to "make it easy for the shooter to try the Division without putting out a lot of money." Then my issue and point are still very valid. How 'easy' do you want to make it?

Cost of; (leaving the sight costs out, as they vary from $200 - $600)

Milling the slide ($75-$125), cover plate ($35-$75) ($120-$200) (to return to almost production) and sight. or

Springer or similar adapter ($60), sight, gunsmith costs (ouch, unknown) or your time and expertise to switch adapter and re-install rear sight or purchase another slide ($200+ if available) ($250+) (not readily available for all 'production' guns) set up to swap them out, plus fitting. or

Frame/rail mount ($75), sight & holster ($65) ($140) Ease of use, Slide on, tighten screws, have fun. Loosen screws, slide off, have fun. Oh ya, install on other gun, have more fun with both.

I think "time and expertise" is maybe an overstatement of what it takes to put on a rear dovetail sight mount. If you can change a rear sight (incredibly easy) then you can put on a dot. It isn't hard, and I surely wouldn't pay a gunsmith to do it.

And if you did take it to a gunsmith, it would only cost as much as fitting a rear sight, so really that would probably only be like what, 50 bucks at the MOST? Probably less for just a rear? Still the least expensive option.

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But not the easiest option. And it would be a pain change out

From Rick Steele, Area 5 Director
"We talked about this at the Board meeting. We are trying to make it easy for the shooter to try the Division without putting out a lot of money. If you machine the slide for the dot and then remove the dot, you will need to fill the machined area with a plate of similar material (steel in most cases) to make it look like a production gun. That will probably depend on how deep you machine the slide. Troy McManus will be the deciding factor as we walk through the issues in this new division.

Since this is a provisional division the ruling on that may change but that is what the Board talked about at the meeting.

You can also use a dovetail mount. It will make the dot a little higher than normal sights but it is very easy to return it to a Production gun."


I do kind of have an issue with this statement in that there are many production shooters who have sold off their plastic guns in favor of >35oz steel guns. I think they may be excluding a large number of folks that would be willing to try a dot on a CZ or TF. Even though I started this thread, I don't plan on purchasing another firearm just to shoot a provisional division.
Exactly
So if your trying to "make it easy for the shooter to try the Division without putting out a lot of money." Then my issue and point are still very valid. How 'easy' do you want to make it?
Cost of; (leaving the sight costs out, as they vary from $200 - $600)
Milling the slide ($75-$125), cover plate ($35-$75) ($120-$200) (to return to almost production) and sight. or
Springer or similar adapter ($60), sight, gunsmith costs (ouch, unknown) or your time and expertise to switch adapter and re-install rear sight or purchase another slide ($200+ if available) ($250+) (not readily available for all 'production' guns) set up to swap them out, plus fitting. or
Frame/rail mount ($75), sight & holster ($65) ($140) Ease of use, Slide on, tighten screws, have fun. Loosen screws, slide off, have fun. Oh ya, install on other gun, have more fun with both.

I think "time and expertise" is maybe an overstatement of what it takes to put on a rear dovetail sight mount. If you can change a rear sight (incredibly easy) then you can put on a dot. It isn't hard, and I surely wouldn't pay a gunsmith to do it.

And if you did take it to a gunsmith, it would only cost as much as fitting a rear sight, so really that would probably only be like what, 50 bucks at the MOST? Probably less for just a rear? Still the least expensive option.

But a frame mount is still easiest way. Plus dovetail would be a pain changing out at the range, if as a competitor you wanted to shoot both divisions in one day.

Edited by tdneuf
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