Bump to open from single stack?

[GrumpyOne]

Just as the safety rules are there to protect everyone, and should be enforced 100% of the time, the divisional requirements and rules are there to create an equitable match for everyone who shoots it, and should be enforced 100% of the time. Whether it be someone' first match or 1,000th match. Be apologetic about it, be nice about it, they will understand.... Most people learn better from their mistakes......

[Nik Habicht]

Your initial call was correct.

Last week I bumped an L-10 shooter to Open since his mags were too long.

He was using 170mm double stack mags?

STI 140 tubes with a plus 2 base pad (double stack).

Just to play devli's advocate for a minute...

Did you measure the mags or use the gage? How many other competitors did you check to see if their mags were legal?

I'm torn on this issue. If you know someone is using equpiment that isn't legal for their division, you don't want to ignore it. On the other hand, if you aren't going to measure every competitors mags, is it right to bump one guy to open when there may be several other competitors whos mags are too long?

Mags can be measured anywhere, anytime. So, if an RO suspects a competitor's mags are too long, he can slap them in the gauge, without needing to check every competitor's mags. It's really no different than enforcing the holster/pouch positions for Production....

[ktm300]

It's a game, it has a rulebook, the rulebook levels the playing field, if we don't follow the rulebook we are not playing the same game. It makes it very simple if you just follow the rulebook the amount of gray gets much smaller.

At local matches I see a fair amount of "it's just a local match" stuff. A lot of it safety related, some of it target scoring. If I see someone DQ while I am running or scoring I call it. I get some crap for it but I call it anyway. I would want someone else to call me on it. The last thing I want to do is get into a bad habit at a local match and end up a DQ on in Open at a major match.

Telling someone that they had their finger on the trigger while reloading does about 1% of the good of them getting a DQ for it. Moving the guy to Open makes a bigger impression that just telling him he messed up. He forgets that by the next stage, he gets to see the move to open when he looks at the scores at the end of the day. Much better for him as he probably will remember it.

Edited July 24, 2012 by ktm300

[a matt]

The guys I shoot with would through their mom under the bus. It all in fun, but the rules , rule period! :roflol:

[Mitch Harrington]

A few months ago, a competitor at our local club match pulled his barney mag from his front pocket to load his SS gun. After doing so, he put it back into his front pocket. I chose to use it as a learning experience and explained the peril in this practice. He thanked me and changed his routine. Had this been a level II match or higher then I would not have warned him.

There are always going to be variance in how rules are used at the club level matches, ESPECIALLY with new shooters. We need to keep them interested in our sport and hobby. Safety rules should never be ignored. Just my opinion.

[Poppa Bear]

8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I

matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or

assistance they request

These are the local rules.

Ahem, no they aren't. Those be national rules. 8.6.2.1 allows for coaching at a Level I.

Neither states- make your own crap up at a "local match."

At what point would you let me get away with breaking the rules?

To answer this part better I could go through the rule book and find all of the level 1 exemptions. The key here is that they were put in there to allow SOME freedom at a level 1 match. They, as you have also stated, do not give you the right to make up your own rules. They just give you the freedom to modify things a bit due to a lack of materials/space/time/experience.

[Flexmoney]

8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I

matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or

assistance they request

These are the local rules.

Ahem, no they aren't. Those be national rules. 8.6.2.1 allows for coaching at a Level I.

Neither states- make your own crap up at a "local match."

At what point would you let me get away with breaking the rules?

To answer this part better I could go through the rule book and find all of the level 1 exemptions. The key here is that they were put in there to allow SOME freedom at a level 1 match. They, as you have also stated, do not give you the right to make up your own rules. They just give you the freedom to modify things a bit due to a lack of materials/space/time/experience.

Those freedoms are very specific, and have nothing to do with the situation in the opening post.

[twodownzero]

There are always going to be variance in how rules are used at the club level matches, ESPECIALLY with new shooters. We need to keep them interested in our sport and hobby. Safety rules should never be ignored. Just my opinion.

Not if I can help it. I think every certified RO who observes a violation of the rules and willingly fails to enforce them should face discipline.

There should not be, and we should not tolerate any "variance" in how the rules are enforced. Having a uniform set of rules is one of the things that keeps our competitors coming back, and makes for an equitable game for all of us.

When the rules become guidelines, I'll start my own sport. Until then, and I know I'm not alone in it, I will seek to encourage us to apply the rules properly and uniformly.

No rule should ever be ignored. Bad rules should be fixed.

[aztecdriver]

There are always going to be variance in how rules are used at the club level matches, ESPECIALLY with new shooters. We need to keep them interested in our sport and hobby. Safety rules should never be ignored. Just my opinion.

Not if I can help it. I think every certified RO who observes a violation of the rules and willingly fails to enforce them should face discipline.

There should not be, and we should not tolerate any "variance" in how the rules are enforced. Having a uniform set of rules is one of the things that keeps our competitors coming back, and makes for an equitable game for all of us.

When the rules become guidelines, I'll start my own sport. Until then, and I know I'm not alone in it, I will seek to encourage us to apply the rules properly and uniformly.

No rule should ever be ignored. Bad rules should be fixed.

Here's my issues. Approach is the problem. There is a difference between safe gun handling, and match rules to ensure all around safety. We can agree that several safe gun handling techniques and situations when used in a match environment are completely no-nos and result in DQs.

The problem is that people brand new to the USPSA (and IDPA) match environment may not understand the match issues, the safety concerns around it and the practicality of the enforcement. This is why a very descent and well thought out safety briefing is paramount. New Shooters are NEW - they haven't seen the rule book, a lot of them have never been in a competitive environment before. The range rules they are aware of are the ones they experience at the firing line and are quite used to acting independent at such lines. You can not expect a new person at a match to understand the match rules around safety areas, equipment, etc. to the technical extent an experienced shooter or match official does.

Let's use two examples from my personal experience. When doing a safety briefing at a local match going over the holster and gun stuff in a safety area, before I could stop him he pulled a loaded magazine out of his pouch to show me location and type. In your approach, I'm to tell him to take his stuff off and go home, before even shooting the match - right?

Another situation that came up recently with an RO that has been out for a couple months was running a new shooter that had a jam. He said "stop, stop, stop...." after the guy unloaded and show clear and holstered, he told him he was DQd and basically was "you can't be doing that". The guy was walking back and I could hear him thinking he was DQ'd for the ammo not working in the gun. Where in reality, he'd swept his hand over the muzzle when dealing with the malf. I pulled the RO aside and told him he was completely unclear in explaining the DQ to the guy and said he had to go and fully explain the sweeping you saw. As I said, the curt approach to dealing with new shooters "we have a rulebook - learn it" doesn't fly. Still and all, safe gun handling is what it is - this guy might actually fix some of his issues now that we pointed it out properly and won't end up dropping one through his hand - but if we left the DQ as it was originally called, it would have been completely useless, the guy would go home never knowing whattheHeck just happened. Approach...

Safe gun handling DQs are always required... If I have a situation where something is different in the match world than typical everyday SGH issues, I'm conflicted. Did the briefing the shooter received cover it sufficiently to be clear about it? If I give the briefing did I screw that up?

I'm conflicted over the disservice to shooters that go home without gaining the experience of being at a match because they violate a rule that's only unsafe at a match. (and I'm absolutely not saying the rules are without merit) It becomes, based on the way I've seen others deal with it, and as you purport, "I'm sorry, you can't shoot. you didn't know the rules."

I'm with you in so far as the rules need to be enforced. I'm not with you in your approach. You might very well start your own sport, but I won't be following in order to be under the hand of thor.

[Mitch Harrington]

There are always going to be variance in how rules are used at the club level matches, ESPECIALLY with new shooters. We need to keep them interested in our sport and hobby. Safety rules should never be ignored. Just my opinion.

Not if I can help it. I think every certified RO who observes a violation of the rules and willingly fails to enforce them should face discipline.

There should not be, and we should not tolerate any "variance" in how the rules are enforced. Having a uniform set of rules is one of the things that keeps our competitors coming back, and makes for an equitable game for all of us.

When the rules become guidelines, I'll start my own sport. Until then, and I know I'm not alone in it, I will seek to encourage us to apply the rules properly and uniformly.

No rule should ever be ignored. Bad rules should be fixed.

If I need to face discipline for not enforcing a non-safety related rule to a new shooter, then so be it. Part of my job as a fellow shooter AND range officer is to represent our sport and hobby in a positive manner. Dinging a new shooter for not knowing the rules (again not talking safety related) instead of counseling them is a little too extreme for my tastes.

ETA: My stance only applies to new shooters at a club level match.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Mitch Harrington

[HI5-O]

Your initial call was correct.

Last week I bumped an L-10 shooter to Open since his mags were too long.

He was using 170mm double stack mags?

STI 140 tubes with a plus 2 base pad (double stack).

Just to play devli's advocate for a minute...

Did you measure the mags or use the gage? How many other competitors did you check to see if their mags were legal?

I'm torn on this issue. If you know someone is using equpiment that isn't legal for their division, you don't want to ignore it. On the other hand, if you aren't going to measure every competitors mags, is it right to bump one guy to open when there may be several other competitors whos mags are too long?

Months ago, like 4, our club obtained the mag gauge and everyone was using it to check their mags.

The one guy, who I bumped to open, was told (by me) that his mags are too long for shooting in Limited/L-10 (has the 140 w/+2 pads) and would be placed in Open if his mag(s) were not corrected.

Our club matches have about 16-24 shooters so it's easy to see everyones gear and this guys one stuck out like a sore thumb.

[Fuelie777]

The person breaking the rules for single stack in this case should be placed in Open. Follow the rule book. If you shoot single stack, read the rules, I did when I started many many moons ago. By following the rule book at the local match, it better prepares both competitors and RO's for the higher level matches.

With that said, a new shooter at a club match, should be teamed with an experienced shooter to coach him on the rules, etc. We do it all the time.

[vluc]

When does a new shooter stop being a new shooter? After "X" number of matches, after "X" number of rounds fired, after they achieve a certain class ranking, when? And if you have a defined point, is it the same for everyone?

We were shooting a match today and a long-time shooter foot-faulted - 6 shots out of the fault line. Got huffy when I (as the clipboard RO) called him for all six, and said it was only a local match. Somewhere out there the occasional reference in the rulebook to level one matches has gotten expanded to be a catch all thrown out for everything.

Such thinking weakens and dilutes our sport and allows people to pick up - and repeat - bad habits. If we don't teach them right before they start shooting, then shame on us.

Another thread on the board talks about how do we grow USPSA. While USPSA has a responsibility to grow itself, the shooters (new and established) have just as much a responsibility to learn the rules and abide by them. Great, you own a gun and know how to shoot it. Now at the very least familiarize yourself with, and learn, the rules of the game you want to play before you go shooting it.

Edited July 29, 2012 by vluc

[hunt_fish]

I'm with the Rule Book crowd - along with a FULL EXPLANATION of WHY.

People can't correct mistakes if they don't know what is wrong.

And depending on when it happened could also influence the situation - for example mag pouches in the wrong place etc. noticed BEFORE shooting could be corrected without wrecking anyone's day, but after they've shot it is only fair that they shoot in the division matching their equipment.

Better a warning at a club match than being bumped to Open at a big match....

[twodownzero]

We should probably just eliminate the clause in the rules allowing variances in stages at local matches. I am starting to think that it causes more problems than it solves. This is not personal, but if you can't enforce the rules, you should just not be a range officer.

[remoandiris]

We should probably just eliminate the clause in the rules allowing variances in stages at local matches. I am starting to think that it causes more problems than it solves. This is not personal, but if you can't enforce the rules, you should just not be a range officer.

So you want local matches to require one person be the MD and another person be the RM, limit of 32 rds per stage (hope there are more than 2 bays to use), only 1 division per shooter no matter how small the match, no coaching even for first time shooters, etc. I don't see how any of that will benefit the sport. If anything it could cause small clubs to close.

The problem isn't level 1. The problem is some people don't read/understand/know the rulebook.

[Jim Norman]

The Level One or as it would be better called, Club Match Exemptions need to be better delineated. The problem is that people assume that the exemption allows virtually any deviation from the rules just because it is a level one match. I hear this at a number of clubs "it's a local match" or It's a Club Match, let it go"

If we were to enumerate exactly what the exemptions are and where they apply and leave out any ambiguity we'd all be better off, especially the newer shooters that are heading out to shoot their first 'big' matches.

Allowing a Level One exemption for mandating that steel be shot only from Box A as opposed to requiring taht a match with 15 shooters and very limited resources put up 4 or more walls to force the shooters to shoot the steel from the same position that the box would be in. Same goes for fully concealing a mover prior to activation. Very few other exemptions that I can think of. Coaching of 'New' shooters is a requirement for safety. Some say, fine but for no score, with no score we greatly reduce the chances that they will return. Be honest, where is our new shooter that needs coaching going to finish? Unlikely that he is going to bump a D shooter out of 1st D if he is truly new and in need of coaching. Maybe Coaching should be limited to unclassified shooters, meaning totally unclassified as in in any division?

Just a few thoughts.

[LPatterson]

I am all for some of the level 1 deviations. If the range will not accommodate true free style stages, like indoors, then an exemption is understandable. Not trying to have free style stages is a disservice to the shooters who may go on to level III matches. In some ways shooters are like children, they can't learn if they aren't taught. One thing I heard a lot in my 20+ years teaching young people(soldiers & airmen) is that everyone occasionally needs to be told they are doing something wrong and shown how to do it right.

[mikeg1005]

Today at a local match I ROd a single stack shooter. During course of fire he ran his gun dry and pulled a mag from his front jeans pocket to finish the course of fire. The front pocket was well in front of his hip bone. As the only CRO on the stage my call was that he should be bumped to open. I got the rule book out and cited to the rules and the appendix. The 2 other ROs (not sure if they really are certified ROs) said that is to harsh and assessed a procedural. They did not want to bump the shooter to opn it and I did not want to act like a jerk so I let it go. Was I wrong in my initial decision?

You made the right "initial" call. Thats the rule.

If the shooter shot before, especially in single stack, they should know that rule.

If it was a new shooter... then next time he will know, and he will remember to read the rule book. Should they decide to quit becuase THEY screwed up, then you know what... I'm not going to sweat it, they weren't serious about this sport to begin with.

I think this a great example of why it is important to ask if anyone is new on a squad. Then right before they start the match you can tell them general safety rules as well as equipment rules. Then there is no excuse for them to "not know" the mag in the front pocket rule.

If the range will not accommodate true free style stages, like indoors, then an exemption is understandable.

I disagree on this... You can have "true" free style stages indoors. We do it our club all the time... The only difference is that all shots go down range instead of into side birms.

Mike.

[LPatterson]

I disagree on this... You can have "true" free style stages indoors. We do it our club all the time... The only difference is that all shots go down range instead of into side birms.

Mike.

I stand corrected. However when all shots are fired only in one direction, isn't this a form of controlled by design shooting. I guess I am spoiled by being able to shoot under the "Big Sky".

[steel1212]

Tough call

No, it's not a tough call at all, just an uncomfortable one. It's not even open to interpretation, no 'gray area'. It's in black and white in the rule book.

You might not like making the call; I wouldn't either, but it's the right one to make.

Guys, its a simple call, its actually a black and white call. You didn't make him pull a mag out of his front pocket....he did that himself. Bump him to open and if he takes it like a man he'll return and continue his learning. If he bulls up and storms off well then he bulls up and storms off. Harsh or not he won't do it again.

[mikeg1005]

I stand corrected. However when all shots are fired only in one direction, isn't this a form of controlled by design shooting. I guess I am spoiled by being able to shoot under the "Big Sky".

We have portable bullet traps

But ya, its generally more 1 directional... but so are some outdoor matches so its kinda a wash. The fact is if you have someone with some stage building skills, you can put together a challenging long course in doors, firing in one direction and not have a bunch of individual shooting boxes/etc.

If not, you have a bunch of boring, down range, shoots. But it can be done with the right stage designs.

MIke.

[rfoil007]

fair call but explain rule so all can learn.

[Scott_Sweeney]

I'm failing to see how moving a straight u or even an uncarded shooter from single stack to open for the "advantage" of fishing one extra mag from his front jeans pocket serves the sport the shooter or his competitors.

I also would like to throw a bucket of reality on those who say similar shooters are not serious about our sport. They are new, they may not know all the restrictions of the division they are shooting in or even have enough of certain items yet. It is incumbent uppon all of us to grow this sport. Trash talking our new shooters should earn someone a quick reminder of 10.6.1 and if they continue after their dq then 10.6.2.

That last part may sound harsh but we ARE serious about our sport. New shooters need a match or two to catch the bug without any bad impressions from trash talk.

[Ronnie j]

As the rules stand, yes you were wrong to not stand your ground. I agree that it is a draconian rule, but it is a rule nonetheless.

My personal opinion, which has been stated to various BoD members, is that a simple mistake in Divisional specifications should bump you to the applicable division (Limited 10 in this case), not straight to Open. I have been told that they are serious about such infractions and the penalty for such "should hurt". Shooting a 5-inch iron-sighted 8-round gun in Open does indeed "hurt"....

The bump to open is "supposed " to hurt you've been around long enough to know that .