Why a 22 rimfire division is needed in USPSA

[Dan Hefta]

If it isn't broke? Don't fix it. USPSA is what it is and quite simply I like it that way.

[Flexmoney]

You can find excuses not to do it or you can find reasons to move forward.

I HAVE done it.

I've shared my experiences, having done it.

What were your experiences when you did it ??

[gose]

You can find excuses not to do it or you can find reasons to move forward.

What are excuses in your eyes are reasonable and well-funded objections in others...

We also run some USPSA-style rimfire matches at our club and though not nearly as popular as our USPSA matches they're a ton of fun. Unfortunately they havent really brought in many new faces...

I've seen this before; rules getting changed and divisions added under the belief that its the magic key to get new shooters to attend when in reality it wont really help much at all. Its my firm belief that adding a rimfire division wont do much to add fresh shooters to USPSA.

I think that time and effort is better spent promoting and shooting other disciplines like Ruger Rimfire, SC or the likes to increase the total number of shooters. More shooters will hopefully lead to more people finding their way to USPSA, but I dont think that trying to get people started with rimfire in USPSA is the way to go.

Edited December 9, 2011 by gose

[Chuck Anderson]

You can find excuses not to do it or you can find reasons to move forward.

Would you support USPSA Airsoft for the same reasons? It's cheap, recoil is down, guns aren't initimidating. We can make all sorts of changes, but at some point it's not USPSA anymore. .22 is that point. No movement, no draw, no reloads, no centerfire guns. All are other things that would make the sport easier for some people to be involved in, but they're all things that would make the sport something else. It always amazes me when someone with so little experience in a sport has "the answer". When someone can state that since their view is X that everyones must be X.

I shoot with an older couple, Tom and Shirley Angell, both are wellllll past retirement age. They both shoot Limited and are very frequently out practicing. Certainly more than I practice. I've never once heard Shirley complain...well about anything, but certainly not about having to shoot a centerfire gun. She did recently start shooting more .22 but it's because she enjoys it. Now I would certainly never say that all Senior shooters, or all women shooters are the same as Shirley. (I wish they were, her and her husband are great to shoot with)

There are several different ways that have been proposed to have an action competition with .22's. Steel Challenge, set up a match, side match. Heck if you think the market is there, run a separate, non-USPSA match after the club match. Let everyone go through again with .22's. You can pull a few steel targets if you want and have fun. But it's not USPSA.

[D.Hayden]

Nothing new under the sun...

We have a club that used to run .22 as a side match (USPSA style). It is easy to like the idea of it, but the devil is in the details. Having been there and done that...I would skip it for USPSA style matches.

The guns don't really run well enough. And, they don't reload very well at all. Plus, you need gear (holsters and mag pouches). Pretty soon you are into very specialized stuff...which kinda defeats the purpose (and the guns still don't run).

Contrast that to Steel Challenge. You get to toss your worst or 5 runs on a course of fire. It is 5 rounds (no reloads required, we start it at the low -ready, etc...

Plus, there can be "alibis"...basically a reshoot due to equipment failure. When I took over as our local club's Steel Challenge match director, I increased the alibis for rimfire from one in the match to one on each stage. That really helped make it a viable format.

(Yes...I know YOUR guns run...but everybody else brings stuff that really doesn't work as well as they think it will. )

You can find excuses not to do it or you can find reasons to move forward.

Not an excuse.. no one wants it - start your own IPSC Rimfire club

[West Texas Granny]

You can find excuses not to do it or you can find reasons to move forward.

Would you support USPSA Airsoft for the same reasons? It's cheap, recoil is down, guns aren't initimidating. We can make all sorts of changes, but at some point it's not USPSA anymore. .22 is that point. No movement, no draw, no reloads, no centerfire guns. All are other things that would make the sport easier for some people to be involved in, but they're all things that would make the sport something else. It always amazes me when someone with so little experience in a sport has "the answer". When someone can state that since their view is X that everyones must be X.

I shoot with an older couple, Tom and Shirley Angell, both are wellllll past retirement age. They both shoot Limited and are very frequently out practicing. Certainly more than I practice. I've never once heard Shirley complain...well about anything, but certainly not about having to shoot a centerfire gun. She did recently start shooting more .22 but it's because she enjoys it. Now I would certainly never say that all Senior shooters, or all women shooters are the same as Shirley. (I wish they were, her and her husband are great to shoot with)

There are several different ways that have been proposed to have an action competition with .22's. Steel Challenge, set up a match, side match. Heck if you think the market is there, run a separate, non-USPSA match after the club match. Let everyone go through again with .22's. You can pull a few steel targets if you want and have fun. But it's not USPSA.

You are making assumptions here. No one said no movement or not drawing from a holster and why would you want to reload 22 when perfectly acceptable match ammo is available. As far as airsoft all I can tell you is it's growing. I'm seeing more people shooting them and I think there are matches now at the range. As far as your amazement all I can say is how long do I have to be shooting USPSA before I'm allowed to ask questions,state an opinion or offer a suggestion.

I started this thread in response to two statements in another thread one being the suggestion of a 22 division and the other being the discussion about going from 10 rounds in Production to 15 rounds and how that would bring more people in. It won't. The untapped market is women and families and if USPSA does not adapt they will be just like the 8 track player. No longer relevant. So if you or someone else can come up with another option that will grow the numbers of those involved in competitive shooting let's hear it. The survival of the shooting sports are dependent upon the addition of new shooters. Failure means less political clout and more restrictions on our sport and ownership of firearms. So I've offered up mine and it's been shot down. So where are the others.

[Dan Hefta]

This has been beat to death already but I will say it anyways. Do we really want everyone that owns a gun to shoot USPSA with us? My vote is no. The people that are involved in the sport now are some of the best people I have ever known and I for one would like to keep it that way.

Do we need new shooters to keep the sport alive? Yes we do. But not just any guy off the street. We the the same caliber of people that have kept this sport alive all these years.

We don't need to water this sport down anymore than we already have.

[JakeMartens]

You can find excuses not to do it or you can find reasons to move forward.

Would you support USPSA Airsoft for the same reasons? It's cheap, recoil is down, guns aren't initimidating. We can make all sorts of changes, but at some point it's not USPSA anymore. .22 is that point. No movement, no draw, no reloads, no centerfire guns. All are other things that would make the sport easier for some people to be involved in, but they're all things that would make the sport something else. It always amazes me when someone with so little experience in a sport has "the answer". When someone can state that since their view is X that everyones must be X.

I shoot with an older couple, Tom and Shirley Angell, both are wellllll past retirement age. They both shoot Limited and are very frequently out practicing. Certainly more than I practice. I've never once heard Shirley complain...well about anything, but certainly not about having to shoot a centerfire gun. She did recently start shooting more .22 but it's because she enjoys it. Now I would certainly never say that all Senior shooters, or all women shooters are the same as Shirley. (I wish they were, her and her husband are great to shoot with)

There are several different ways that have been proposed to have an action competition with .22's. Steel Challenge, set up a match, side match. Heck if you think the market is there, run a separate, non-USPSA match after the club match. Let everyone go through again with .22's. You can pull a few steel targets if you want and have fun. But it's not USPSA.

You are making assumptions here. No one said no movement or not drawing from a holster and why would you want to reload 22 when perfectly acceptable match ammo is available. As far as airsoft all I can tell you is it's growing. I'm seeing more people shooting them and I think there are matches now at the range. As far as your amazement all I can say is how long do I have to be shooting USPSA before I'm allowed to ask questions,state an opinion or offer a suggestion.

I started this thread in response to two statements in another thread one being the suggestion of a 22 division and the other being the discussion about going from 10 rounds in Production to 15 rounds and how that would bring more people in. It won't. The untapped market is women and families and if USPSA does not adapt they will be just like the 8 track player. No longer relevant. So if you or someone else can come up with another option that will grow the numbers of those involved in competitive shooting let's hear it. The survival of the shooting sports are dependent upon the addition of new shooters. Failure means less political clout and more restrictions on our sport and ownership of firearms. So I've offered up mine and it's been shot down. So where are the others.

Awhile back someone didn't like the direction that USPSA was going, so he went and started something else.....

Go and do that with a .22 Practical Shooting Association. And maybe if it catches on and becomes really popular, even mainstream!! You can then buy USPSA, Steel Challenge and IDPA!!

You could have

22 iron sights

22 optics

22 revolver iron sights

22 single action revovler

22 optics revolver

22 open with comps

22 10 shot revolver

22 production stock guns

22 limited with magwells and hi cap mags

22 bug

22 rifle

22 tactical rifle

22 rifle pump

22 rifle lever action

22 optics rifle

22 tactical rifle with optics

22 rifle pump with optics

of course you then have to split it into from low ready or holster divisions

Have fun with it, let us know how is goes

[GmanCdp]

"alibis"...

that would be 1 of the biggest killers of adding a 22 division..ever shoot a NRA bullseye match???

[MarkCO]

This has been beat to death already but I will say it anyways. Do we really want everyone that owns a gun to shoot USPSA with us? My vote is no. The people that are involved in the sport now are some of the best people I have ever known and I for one would like to keep it that way.

Do we need new shooters to keep the sport alive? Yes we do. But not just any guy off the street. We the the same caliber of people that have kept this sport alive all these years.

We don't need to water this sport down anymore than we already have.

Totally Agree!

We already have Steel Challenge, and Ruger Rimfire Challenge. Maybe there will be another sport come along and try rimfire. I really like shooting .22s, just started doing it quite a bit this year, but it has no place in USPSA! DVC is not DVC with rimfire. SC, RRC, NRA action pistol, IDPA and even some of the traditional straight line shooting sports "prime" shooters for USPSA.

As for the OP...Tell us why SC and RRC do not meet your 6 reasons?

[The Antichrome]

I'm all in favor of 'Action Rimfire' type matches...but I'm not in favor of incorporating it as a Division in USPSA.

We often have kids/wives/girlfriends/newbs shoot a .22 in a match (unscored) it presents some issues, nothing major when its 1 shooter...get a bunch of .22 shooters in a USPSA match and it's a headache.

One local (indoor) club hosts 'Action Rimfire' matches. USPSA procedures using 1/2 sized targets (they're airsoft targets)

There is no draw (we use table starts or low ready)

No reloads on the clock (often have multi-string stages)

No steel (indoor match) but we sometimes have knock downs of some sort...a tennis ball plate rack can be diabolical.

These matches are fantastic and should absolutely be expanded.

As for Steel Challenge; .22's have totally taken over local SC matches, it's rare to have a centerfire gun out there.

The indoor club tried 'Paper Challenge' but thats just too friggin hard!

To repeat:

.22 matches? Yes.

.22 USPSA matches? No.

[Sarge]

You can find excuses not to do it or you can find reasons to move forward.

Would you support USPSA Airsoft for the same reasons? It's cheap, recoil is down, guns aren't initimidating. We can make all sorts of changes, but at some point it's not USPSA anymore. .22 is that point. No movement, no draw, no reloads, no centerfire guns. All are other things that would make the sport easier for some people to be involved in, but they're all things that would make the sport something else. It always amazes me when someone with so little experience in a sport has "the answer". When someone can state that since their view is X that everyones must be X.

I shoot with an older couple, Tom and Shirley Angell, both are wellllll past retirement age. They both shoot Limited and are very frequently out practicing. Certainly more than I practice. I've never once heard Shirley complain...well about anything, but certainly not about having to shoot a centerfire gun. She did recently start shooting more .22 but it's because she enjoys it. Now I would certainly never say that all Senior shooters, or all women shooters are the same as Shirley. (I wish they were, her and her husband are great to shoot with)

There are several different ways that have been proposed to have an action competition with .22's. Steel Challenge, set up a match, side match. Heck if you think the market is there, run a separate, non-USPSA match after the club match. Let everyone go through again with .22's. You can pull a few steel targets if you want and have fun. But it's not USPSA.

You are making assumptions here. No one said no movement or not drawing from a holster and why would you want to reload 22 when perfectly acceptable match ammo is available. As far as airsoft all I can tell you is it's growing. I'm seeing more people shooting them and I think there are matches now at the range. As far as your amazement all I can say is how long do I have to be shooting USPSA before I'm allowed to ask questions,state an opinion or offer a suggestion.

I started this thread in response to two statements in another thread one being the suggestion of a 22 division and the other being the discussion about going from 10 rounds in Production to 15 rounds and how that would bring more people in. It won't. The untapped market is women and families and if USPSA does not adapt they will be just like the 8 track player. No longer relevant. So if you or someone else can come up with another option that will grow the numbers of those involved in competitive shooting let's hear it. The survival of the shooting sports are dependent upon the addition of new shooters. Failure means less political clout and more restrictions on our sport and ownership of firearms. So I've offered up mine and it's been shot down. So where are the others.

[Avezorak]

If you cant get your wife and kids to shoot Steel Challenge, which IMO is the least intimidating of all the shooting sports, you wont get them to shoot "Action Rimfire". People who want to shoot, will shoot. People who dont, wont. Its just that simple. With that said, Im having withdrawals, I need to go shoot.....

[Avezorak]

You can find excuses not to do it or you can find reasons to move forward.

Would you support USPSA Airsoft for the same reasons? It's cheap, recoil is down, guns aren't initimidating. We can make all sorts of changes, but at some point it's not USPSA anymore. .22 is that point. No movement, no draw, no reloads, no centerfire guns. All are other things that would make the sport easier for some people to be involved in, but they're all things that would make the sport something else. It always amazes me when someone with so little experience in a sport has "the answer". When someone can state that since their view is X that everyones must be X.

I shoot with an older couple, Tom and Shirley Angell, both are wellllll past retirement age. They both shoot Limited and are very frequently out practicing. Certainly more than I practice. I've never once heard Shirley complain...well about anything, but certainly not about having to shoot a centerfire gun. She did recently start shooting more .22 but it's because she enjoys it. Now I would certainly never say that all Senior shooters, or all women shooters are the same as Shirley. (I wish they were, her and her husband are great to shoot with)

There are several different ways that have been proposed to have an action competition with .22's. Steel Challenge, set up a match, side match. Heck if you think the market is there, run a separate, non-USPSA match after the club match. Let everyone go through again with .22's. You can pull a few steel targets if you want and have fun. But it's not USPSA.

You are making assumptions here. No one said no movement or not drawing from a holster and why would you want to reload 22 when perfectly acceptable match ammo is available. As far as airsoft all I can tell you is it's growing. I'm seeing more people shooting them and I think there are matches now at the range. As far as your amazement all I can say is how long do I have to be shooting USPSA before I'm allowed to ask questions,state an opinion or offer a suggestion.

I started this thread in response to two statements in another thread one being the suggestion of a 22 division and the other being the discussion about going from 10 rounds in Production to 15 rounds and how that would bring more people in. It won't. The untapped market is women and families and if USPSA does not adapt they will be just like the 8 track player. No longer relevant. So if you or someone else can come up with another option that will grow the numbers of those involved in competitive shooting let's hear it. The survival of the shooting sports are dependent upon the addition of new shooters. Failure means less political clout and more restrictions on our sport and ownership of firearms. So I've offered up mine and it's been shot down. So where are the others.

Yes that just happened...

[Nik Habicht]

Nothing new under the sun...

We have a club that used to run .22 as a side match (USPSA style). It is easy to like the idea of it, but the devil is in the details. Having been there and done that...I would skip it for USPSA style matches.

The guns don't really run well enough. And, they don't reload very well at all. Plus, you need gear (holsters and mag pouches). Pretty soon you are into very specialized stuff...which kinda defeats the purpose (and the guns still don't run).

Contrast that to Steel Challenge. You get to toss your worst or 5 runs on a course of fire. It is 5 rounds (no reloads required, we start it at the low -ready, etc...

Plus, there can be "alibis"...basically a reshoot due to equipment failure. When I took over as our local club's Steel Challenge match director, I increased the alibis for rimfire from one in the match to one on each stage. That really helped make it a viable format.

(Yes...I know YOUR guns run...but everybody else brings stuff that really doesn't work as well as they think it will. )

Then there's a way of setting it up as a separate match, with a low ready start, and staged mags on the course of fire....

That lowers equipment costs and could allow for another feeder sport for USPSA....

I could envision folks starting in steel challenge, mastering that, moving on to the .22 Action matches and getting the movement down, and then transitioning into USPSA....

[Nik Habicht]

Nothing new under the sun...

We have a club that used to run .22 as a side match (USPSA style). It is easy to like the idea of it, but the devil is in the details. Having been there and done that...I would skip it for USPSA style matches.

The guns don't really run well enough. And, they don't reload very well at all. Plus, you need gear (holsters and mag pouches). Pretty soon you are into very specialized stuff...which kinda defeats the purpose (and the guns still don't run).

Contrast that to Steel Challenge. You get to toss your worst or 5 runs on a course of fire. It is 5 rounds (no reloads required, we start it at the low -ready, etc...

Plus, there can be "alibis"...basically a reshoot due to equipment failure. When I took over as our local club's Steel Challenge match director, I increased the alibis for rimfire from one in the match to one on each stage. That really helped make it a viable format.

(Yes...I know YOUR guns run...but everybody else brings stuff that really doesn't work as well as they think it will. )

You can find excuses not to do it or you can find reasons to move forward.

Part of participating in a discussion should probably be a requirement to actually think of a coherent argument, not just a soundbite.....

[Schutzenmeister]

Would you support USPSA Airsoft for the same reasons? It's cheap, recoil is down, guns aren't initimidating. We can make all sorts of changes, but at some point it's not USPSA anymore.

Chuck ... Airsoft already exists. IPSC does it. If someone want to shoot it, they already have the authority under USPSA - They just have to run an IPSC rules match ... Right?

[...] why would you want to reload 22 when perfectly acceptable match ammo is available. [...]

WTG

The reference to reloads is reloading the gun. NO ONE reloads .22 ammo (that I am aware of.) However, the average .22 HG, absent some modifications, can be a little slow to reload. Then there's the need for special mag holders (Yes, I have several ...), and other minor stuff. The need for a holster is moot. Simply design all the stages to start from low ready (not allowed by USPSA rules, but then neither is .22!) or off a table.

I have in years past shot indoor .22 matches on ranges where they simply will NOT allow full powered HGs. If it's a stand alone match, you can make it work reasonably well, and it was more fun than not being able to shoot all winter! But it IS NOT IPSC or USPSA. That REQUIRES a full-power HG!

[konkapot]

Avezorak made a great point.

If people want to shoot, they will come shoot. In any endeavor (golf, running, remote control airplanes, etc) the percentage of people in that group who want to compete is always very small; the vast majority (99%?) just want to play.

That's human nature. Changing the core elements of our sport in the hopes of more people showing up won't change human nature.

We get new shooters by running safe and fun matches.

Now I'm off to go tumble some .22 brass to reload.

FY42385

[CocoBolo]

I shoot USPSA, SSC, and Action shooting. I don't think it is a good idea for many reasons. The obivious is sometimes ignored. If you go to a steel match, you don't see many 22's. The action club I shoot at will have 1 or 2 22's mostly as 2nd gun, but the other 35 are 9 mm and larger. Point is those sports that already allow 22 are not drawing throngs of shooters in 22. That dog just won't hunt.

But just in case this dumb idea takes hold I've got a 22 converion for my open gun. Now to find a 170mm 22 lr 2011 quad stack 200 rd mag to shoot the whole match.

[Chuck Anderson]

I shoot USPSA, SSC, and Action shooting. I don't think it is a good idea for many reasons. The obivious is sometimes ignored. If you go to a steel match, you don't see many 22's. The action club I shoot at will have 1 or 2 22's mostly as 2nd gun, but the other 35 are 9 mm and larger. Point is those sports that already allow 22 are not drawing throngs of shooters in 22. That dog just won't hunt.

But just in case this dumb idea takes hold I've got a 22 converion for my open gun. Now to find a 170mm 22 lr 2011 quad stack 200 rd mag to shoot the whole match.

Must be regional then because the last steel match I shot it was the opposite. Maybe two center fire entries and 60 ish rim fire.

[open17]

Must be regional then because the last steel match I shot it was the opposite. Maybe two center fire entries and 60 ish rim fire.

Yup. The local monthly steel match draws 60-100 shooters, and MAYBE 10 of them shoot centerfire. A lot of people that

shoot ONLY steel, looks like around 20% also shoot USPSA.

My 2¢: Leave USPSA alone. Go shoot steel or Ruger Rimfire if you just have to shoot rimfire. That's what I do. And

I have a blast doing it. But it ain't run-n-gun with a big boy caliber.

If you just NEED to have a crusade, get 22 rimfire allowed in Scholastic Steel Challenge. THERE is the future,

young shooters. Get em' hooked on 22 steel, then move them to centerfire and on to USPSA.

[j0n]

Don't make it a Division - make it a different sport shooting USPSA/IPSC rules; a different discipline/entity like SC is.

Clubs really ought to be running Steel Challenge.

Much better venue for .22s

A USPSA match would have to be setup just for .22 rimfire.. can you think how light the steel would have to be set for.. and in the wind.. it would be a nightmare.

But, taping paper for 22s is an issue? - lol.. I think all the 3 Gunners shooting .223 would disagree

Our club has a .22 Action group. They run USPSA rules but they have their own steel much lighter and sized down a bit as well. Paper targets are USPSA and the 1/4 size ones. Four divisions, Pistol and Carbine, open and iron, 10 round max as that fits nearly all .22s.

It works, but it is NOT run with our USPSA Match. That will not work.

We also run three steel matches a month. Two are Steel Challenge type and one is Knock Down. .22s are welcome there as well.

I love this match. Great fun, but as already stated, something that should be kept separate from USPSA.

[Ray_Z]

If it isn't broke? Don't fix it. USPSA is what it is and quite simply I like it that way.

But it is broke....... sorta. A whole lot of people still thing that to shoot practical pistol you have to have a $2500 gun to start. Plus there are a lot of folks that just can't come up with the cost of ammo.

I suggest that the matches be scored and run as production division. Minimum power factor, ten rounds in the mags. And no a 22 will not knock over a popper. So if there is a stage that required a popper to be knocked over to activate another target something else would have to be done to, say, start a swinger.

Let's get something started for everybody. Not just those that can afford $50 for ammo to shoot a match. The streets aren't getting any friendlier.

[Gary Stevens]

If it isn't broke? Don't fix it. USPSA is what it is and quite simply I like it that way.

But it is broke....... sorta. A whole lot of people still thing that to shoot practical pistol you have to have a $2500 gun to start. Plus there are a lot of folks that just can't come up with the cost of ammo.

I suggest that the matches be scored and run as production division. Minimum power factor, ten rounds in the mags. And no a 22 will not knock over a popper. So if there is a stage that required a popper to be knocked over to activate another target something else would have to be done to, say, start a swinger.

Let's get something started for everybody. Not just those that can afford $50 for ammo to shoot a match. The streets aren't getting any friendlier.

Hi Ray,

The fact that "some" people still think you have to have a 2500 dollar gun to shoot USPSA, despite Production Division, Sinle Stack Division, L-10 Division and Revolver Division falls into the area of "you just can't fix stupid". My opinion only, your mileage may vary.

Gary

[smokshwn]

But it is broke....... sorta. A whole lot of people still thing that to shoot practical pistol you have to have a $2500 gun to start. Plus there are a lot of folks that just can't come up with the cost of ammo.

I suggest that the matches be scored and run as production division. Minimum power factor, ten rounds in the mags. And no a 22 will not knock over a popper. So if there is a stage that required a popper to be knocked over to activate another target something else would have to be done to, say, start a swinger.

Let's get something started for everybody. Not just those that can afford $50 for ammo to shoot a match. The streets aren't getting any friendlier.

So by analogy, if I am interested in golfing, and I wrongly perceive that I need $2500 worth of clubs, bag, and balls (yes I said balls ) to participate, the USGA should build a compensation mechanism into the game that would allow me to use a hockey stick and puck because they are cheaper/what I have/ lots of fun/ etc etc?

No one here is saying that .22 matches are not a good idea, not fun, or not an economical way to enjoy shooting. However, they clearly are not USPSA.