10+1 in Open USPSA Shotgun?

[Chuck Anderson]

Nothing is 100% yet. My hope is to create a rule book with multiple scoring options. Hit Factor, Time Plus and say Horner scoring. Allow the individual match Director to choose. We just ran the Area 1 MG match last weekend using Time Plus scoring (which is already in the rule book). Lots of 9's there. Will the Nationals change to using Time Plus? Don't know. Probably depends who is President/responsible for Nationals.

[outerlimits]

don't listen to chuck-i'm really only about 113. one thing to point out-open in uspsa always had restrictions. for shotgun, round capacity. for pistol, mag length. if we're not gonna restrict shotgun capacity, why the 170mm rule in pistol. just sayin...

BTW, i will be shooting open in vegas next week. and no, i don't have a saiga (yet). when i move to oregon soon, you better believe my 930 open shotgun will be on the classifieds here...

[KentG]

don't listen to chuck-i'm really only about 113. one thing to point out-open in uspsa always had restrictions. for shotgun, round capacity. for pistol, mag length. if we're not gonna restrict shotgun capacity, why the 170mm rule in pistol. just sayin...

BTW, i will be shooting open in vegas next week. and no, i don't have a saiga (yet). when i move to oregon soon, you better believe my 930 open shotgun will be on the classifieds here...

Don't misunderstand, I'm not being combative. I just think it can be done inexpensively. I prefer IMG rules hands down.

AND skip the Saiga and go for the Akdal. I like mine better than the Saiga. The ergos are a head and shoulder better IMO.

[Charles Bond]

Doug, we've got it. We're just trying to come up with some consensus and rules that everyone can live with. Not one rule set for one match, another for a different one and have to change gear everytime you travel to a different three gun match. Not that I think everyone needs to use exactly the same rules, but it would be nice to have equipment, and safety rules even across the board.

A non shotgun question. What about pistol? The 9 is popular in IMG rules since there is no power factor to deal with.

I would not endorse abolishing the power factor as it gives definition as to what is a handgun vs what is a pop gun. I think USPSA has it right with having a major/minor power factor. IMO the non USPSA matches do not bother with it since they simply do not desire to staff a chrono. What a power factor also does is allow everyone to shoot heads up which I favor. Having a HM division thus becomes unnecessary.

[Charles Bond]

don't listen to chuck-i'm really only about 113. one thing to point out-open in uspsa always had restrictions. for shotgun, round capacity. for pistol, mag length. if we're not gonna restrict shotgun capacity, why the 170mm rule in pistol. just sayin...

BTW, i will be shooting open in vegas next week. and no, i don't have a saiga (yet). when i move to oregon soon, you better believe my 930 open shotgun will be on the classifieds here...

Don't misunderstand, I'm not being combative. I just think it can be done inexpensively. I prefer IMG rules hands down.

AND skip the Saiga and go for the Akdal. I like mine better than the Saiga. The ergos are a head and shoulder better IMO.

All I know is you can get set up in open with an xrail and a shotgun that always works for half the price of what your going to pay for a Saiga that has been modified and tuned to the degree it is about 90% reliable.

[Benelli Chick]

Doug, we've got it. We're just trying to come up with some consensus and rules that everyone can live with. Not one rule set for one match, another for a different one and have to change gear everytime you travel to a different three gun match. Not that I think everyone needs to use exactly the same rules, but it would be nice to have equipment, and safety rules even across the board.

A non shotgun question. What about pistol? The 9 is popular in IMG rules since there is no power factor to deal with.

I would not endorse abolishing the power factor as it gives definition as to what is a handgun vs what is a pop gun. I think USPSA has it right with having a major/minor power factor. IMO the non USPSA matches do not bother with it since they simply do not desire to staff a chrono. What a power factor also does is allow everyone to shoot heads up which I favor. Having a HM division thus becomes unnecessary.

The major points for a .308 doesn't mitigate the extra time it takes to shoot it..IMHO! You can shoot .40 major, shotguns are the same power factor pump or not, so how does power factor affect He-Man division at all? Unnecessary?? Who's going to shoot big guns when the power factor changes almost nothing...especially if you shoot steel and A's on paper!

I agree you should be able to use power factor if you want...but one way to discourage mouse loads without power factor is to have some heavier steel that you can't blow over from 10 yards away with a BB gun! I don't think in 3-Gun, power factor is necessary. You use steel, you put paper farther away or smaller to require more accuracy...It's not that I don't want to have a chrono stage...it's just why should I use money for that when the stages we design incorporate power factor in their target placement and type already?

But, that's just me!

Denise

[Charles Bond]

Doug, we've got it. We're just trying to come up with some consensus and rules that everyone can live with. Not one rule set for one match, another for a different one and have to change gear everytime you travel to a different three gun match. Not that I think everyone needs to use exactly the same rules, but it would be nice to have equipment, and safety rules even across the board.

A non shotgun question. What about pistol? The 9 is popular in IMG rules since there is no power factor to deal with.

I would not endorse abolishing the power factor as it gives definition as to what is a handgun vs what is a pop gun. I think USPSA has it right with having a major/minor power factor. IMO the non USPSA matches do not bother with it since they simply do not desire to staff a chrono. What a power factor also does is allow everyone to shoot heads up which I favor. Having a HM division thus becomes unnecessary.

The major points for a .308 doesn't mitigate the extra time it takes to shoot it..IMHO! You can shoot .40 major, shotguns are the same power factor pump or not, so how does power factor affect He-Man division at all? Unnecessary?? Who's going to shoot big guns when the power factor changes almost nothing...especially if you shoot steel and A's on paper!

I agree you should be able to use power factor if you want...but one way to discourage mouse loads without power factor is to have some heavier steel that you can't blow over from 10 yards away with a BB gun! I don't think in 3-Gun, power factor is necessary. You use steel, you put paper farther away or smaller to require more accuracy...It's not that I don't want to have a chrono stage...it's just why should I use money for that when the stages we design incorporate power factor in their target placement and type already?

But, that's just me!

Denise

Denise if a single A hit from a major gun equaled two C hits from a minor gun, that would equalize things so everyone could go head to head. Another problem with HM is it is 308 or above only when we know there are plently of lesser guns that will make major and should have a place in the matches. Yes I know that "major" is a value judgement but the results of WW2 defined it rather well especially if you were on the losing side.

And yes you can push the steel out to make shooters use a major shotgun round but they will just use it on that stage and revert to powder puff loads on others. IMO installing smaller paper targets is just a smaller target and it does not simulate distance and the effects of wind on the round that you get at a full size target at distance.

I am of the opinion that barring some really great incentive, we are not going to succeed in a single set of 3 gun rules which is sad since by failing to do so we do not realize the growth in the sport we could have if we did it.

[Flexmoney]

A: 10 rounds?

Q: What is the topic?

[Doug H.]

Doug, we've got it. We're just trying to come up with some consensus and rules that everyone can live with. Not one rule set for one match, another for a different one and have to change gear everytime you travel to a different three gun match. Not that I think everyone needs to use exactly the same rules, but it would be nice to have equipment, and safety rules even across the board.

Chuck, I figured that you were in favor, but I wonder if there is enough support from the rest of the BOD to push new rules for Open. USPSA is in a unique position to make a set of rules that most people can live with, just need the will.

Doug

[Chuck Anderson]

We're in a great position at this time to make it happen. A1, A2, A4, and A8 are all active three gun competitors, A6 has worked a ton of three gun matches, including lots of IMGA matches. The President, also competes in the occasional 3G match. Basically, if we want it to happen the votes are there. It's just a matter of trying to get some consensus among the IMGA match directors and figure out a benefit for them. Since the IMGA matches already sell out with long waitlists we can't offer them increased participation. What USPSA can offer is a beginners step. Local matches, and regional matches. Basically something other than the Majors that seem to fill the Match Announcement pages. To do that we need a set of rules that everyone can use, but still allows for the individual flavor of some of the more "out there" matches. Believe me, I do not want to change the Ironman, or Blue Ridge.

[RIIID]

Just a tid bit of history USPSA Open shotgun didn't have a capacity limit until it was decided by two people. The BOD didn't vote on the rule and the BOD members I talked to had no clue what had happened until I asked them why the 10+1 limit was in the new rule book. This was done a round '99 or '00, at that time most of the Open shooters had 12 shot tubes and some had the 15 to 17 round tubes. The e-mails I exchanged at the time of this, it was made clear that it wasn't done because of the AWB. It was done so things would be a level playing field and would eliminate any idiot who could use a hacksaw and weld up a long tube. You can get upset with IPSC's voting power structure all you want but unfair rules were made with no vote at all in USPSA.

Rich

[Religious Shooter]

Sure. I think if USPSA Open becomes truly "open", in the long run you are even going to have less shooters in Open and even more shooters in TO/Tactical and Limited.

[Alaskapopo]

Are we going to get rid of the 170MM restriction too?

We should keep it 10+1. Let USPSA be the ruleset where you actually have to reload in Open.

I disagree. Basically the 10+1 is trying to keep tube guns in the game. Open should be about innovation and testing new equipment not about protecting obsolete gear and guns.

Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Sure. I think if USPSA Open becomes truly "open", in the long run you are even going to have less shooters in Open and even more shooters in TO/Tactical and Limited.

I disagree open appeals to a different crowd.

Pat

[Singlestack]

Are we going to get rid of the 170MM restriction too?

We should keep it 10+1. Let USPSA be the ruleset where you actually have to reload in Open.

I disagree. Basically the 10+1 is trying to keep tube guns in the game. Open should be about innovation and testing new equipment not about protecting obsolete gear and guns.

Pat

The 10+1 rule was in place long before the mag guns were availible.

[wgnoyes]

This is one of 2 reasons I dont like USPSA scoring for multigun. Im currently shooting a Saiga and use AGP mags but if I want to use surfire or drums then thats my choice in open. I also dont like power factors in multi gun. ...

We can run Time+ in multigun as well as HF scoring.

[Religious Shooter]

Sure. I think if USPSA Open becomes truly "open", in the long run you are even going to have less shooters in Open and even more shooters in TO/Tactical and Limited.

I disagree open appeals to a different crowd.

Pat

Up to a point. I'm sure everyone has a breaking point.

Let me ask you this... Do you think that USPSA/IMGA matches throughout the country will have MORE Open shooters (relative to the other divisions) with "Open is open"?

"Open is open" basically increases the costs for a shooter to participate in Open. If you increase the price of a product... will you sell more? Or will you sell less?

The local matches that I attend have had a huge surge in new shooters. I'd guess that two in twenty begin as Open shooters. Of the two only one stays an Open shooter. The other one starts in Open because they have red dot on their shotgun or they have a ported barrel on their shotgun or they like shooting with a bipod, etc. They eventually end up in Tactical when they "fix" the Open gun.

Open is a tough sell to the new shooter. USPSA is about to make it even tougher.

[DocMedic]

Let me ask you this... Do you think that USPSA/IMGA matches throughout the country will have MORE Open shooters (relative to the other divisions) with "Open is open"?

Only USPSA has the "10+1" rule for open. All the other matches(that i'm aware of) run "unlimited" shells in shotgun. So yes I would believe it would allow MORE people to shoot open at USPSA Matches.

"Open is open" basically increases the costs for a shooter to participate in Open. If you increase the price of a product... will you sell more? Or will you sell less?

"Open is open" doesn't change the cost of shooting 3-gun open. There are alot of Open shooters that are doing very well (and winning majority of matches) with using a tube stick.

Open is a tough sell to the new shooter. USPSA is about to make it even tougher.

Yes it is but honestly I rather see new shooters go into a division that fits their equipment. Those new shooters that actually want to shoot open, will abide by the rules and get the equipment they need to be competitive in that division. If they don't they'll lose, simple. I'm not understanding how USPSA is gonna make it even tougher? Sounds like they're just trying to do what everyones already doing.

Edited October 18, 2011 by DocMedic

[Bryan 45]

Where are all these USPSA 3 gun matches? East of the Mississippi there is only one major I can think of that uses USPSA rules, and there are no local clubs using them.

Modified IMGA on the other hand.... Major matches usually have near 30 open Shooters (over 10% of total entries).

[Religious Shooter]

Only USPSA has the "10+1" rule for open. All the other matches(that i'm aware of) run "unlimited" shells in shotgun. So yes I would believe it would allow MORE people to shoot open at USPSA Matches.

Why would it allow more shooters to shoot USPSA matches? You can shoot Saigas, Akdal and XRailed shotgun right now in a USPSA match. You just load the mags/tube with only ten rounds.

"Open is open" doesn't change the cost of shooting 3-gun open. There are alot of Open shooters that are doing very well (and winning majority of matches) with using a tube stick.

Sure it does. With the rule it's enevitable that the a tube gun without a $700 Xrail will be uncompetitive. Of the top Open shooters Voigt is the only one that is still using a tube gun without an XRail.

Clint U --- Saiga.

Jerry M --- XRailed Mossburg(?)

Burkett --- Saiga

Open is a tough sell to the new shooter. USPSA is about to make it even tougher.

Yes it is but honestly I rather see new shooters go into a division that fits their equipment. Those new shooters that actually want to shoot open, will abide by the rules and get the equipment they need to be competitive in that division. If they don't they'll lose, simple. I'm not understanding how USPSA is gonna make it even tougher? Sounds like they're just trying to do what everyones already doing.

They are making it tougher because they are increasing the cost to have competitive equipment. With the current USPSA 10+1 rule anybody with an 1100 can just get sticks and an extended tube and be reasonably competitive.

But I don't even know why you are even responding. It looks like it is enevitable that USPSA will get rid of the 10+1 in Open.

[smokshwn]

Sure. I think if USPSA Open becomes truly "open", in the long run you are even going to have less shooters in Open and even more shooters in TO/Tactical and Limited.

How do you arrive at this result. Every other national level three gun match allows unlimited rounds in Open. So how is changing the one remaining match going to reduce the number of shooters in Open.

The only thing reducing the number of shooters in Open will be the format change of 3GN.

[DocMedic]

But I don't even know why you are even responding. It looks like it is enevitable that USPSA will get rid of the 10+1 in Open.

Because I like to read a good argument.

[Religious Shooter]

How do you arrive at this result. Every other national level three gun match allows unlimited rounds in Open. So how is changing the one remaining match going to reduce the number of shooters in Open.

The only thing reducing the number of shooters in Open will be the format change of 3GN.

It's USPSA, it's not just one match. It's all the Area matches and it's all the local matches.

I don't think it will have that great of a reduction in the number of Open shooters at major USPSA matches. If ind that Open shooters who shoot major matches are fairly well off.

It's at the local level where it's going to have an effect.

You said it yourself, you need to spend $3-4K on the shotgun. That's a couple thousand more than an 1100/M2 with sticks and an extended tube. You don't think a couple of thousand dollars more is going to detract a local shooter from shooting Open?

An even higher percentage of new shooters will opt for Tactical and Limited.

[Singlestack]

I'm a die hard Open pistol shooter. If I had to pick only one Division to shoot in forever, it would be Open. Having said that, I quit shooting Open in 3-Gun due to the shotgun.

[DyNo!]

The problem will fix itself though. USPSA will HAVE to change its stance towards multigun and its handling of major and local multigun matches given the popularity of outlaw rulesets.

I'm trying to think of a political win/win for USPSA and the Outlaw multi-gun community but it seems like one establishment has led to the creation of another (Like IPSC/USPSA/IDPA/etc).

Edit:

The only thing reducing the number of shooters in Open will be the format change of 3GN.

And that goes for many other things as well. 3GN has earned a great position of leadership and I have been satisfied with their involvement in multigun shooting sports. I and many other long gun action shooters (and match directors) will likely base any equipment decisions on their structure. They seem to be moving to a higher position of authority and I'm interested in seeing what they have planned for 2013.

Within two years, they've produced one of the first television shows of this type in many years, created a shooting league, and a statistical database with a mountain of useful articles and video for new multigun shooters.

Edited October 18, 2011 by DyNo!