Religious Shooter Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Are we going to get rid of the 170MM restriction too? We should keep it 10+1. Let USPSA be the ruleset where you actually have to reload in Open. And screw over anyone that uses a Xrail for open? The key word is "keep." The 10+1 rule is in effect now. Xrail was "screw"ed to begin with. And you can use the X-rail in USPSA. Just don't go over 10 rounds in the tube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Are we going to get rid of the 170MM restriction too? We should keep it 10+1. Let USPSA be the ruleset where you actually have to reload in Open. And screw over anyone that uses a Xrail for open? The key word is "keep." The 10+1 rule is in effect now. Xrail was "screw"ed to begin with. And you can use the X-rail in USPSA. Just don't go over 10 rounds in the tube. Do you actually shoot open? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Yes. I shoot Open locally. I've shot Open at Ironman. I also shoot TO/Tactical, Limited and on occasion HM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 (edited) Open is a bastard child-uspsa or wildcat matches. No one shoots it cause it requires big $$$ for pistol and shotgun. Lets face it, rifle doesn't matter-no significance having a bipod or a 2nd optic. So, for shotgun, buy a $3-4k shotgun and you can compete in open Edited October 14, 2011 by outerlimits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sako92S Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 USPSA has no mag restrictions for rifles whether they be open or otherwise. As to the comment about IPSC rules, think about how much sense it makes that all of these IPSC regions who can not shoot rifle or shotgun have the same vote on amendments to rules that regions where rifle and shotgun matches are held. Yes, and those contries voted in favour of changing those rules. All big rifle and SG countries voted against the rule change but we lost. All biggest regions voted against those changes but there is 1 vote for voting region which is not based on the membership quantity. All regions which has paid for 100 members have 1 vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sako92S Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I am pretty sure a modified division shotgun in IPSC can hold more rounds than a USPSA Open, hmmm Yes, modified SG with little shortened stock can hold 17 rounds and in open with tube fed you can put only 14 rounds and with box fed 10+1. I'll bet that someone will come up with pullbup SG in modified division which can hold 20 rounds. So what about open which is now more limited than standard division if we look at how many rounds it can eat. There is NO length limit on standard and after the signal you can stuff as many rounds in the tube you like. If you didn't notice yet the chest rigs and bandoliers are also banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentG Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 (edited) Open is a bastard child-uspsa or wildcat matches. No one shoots it cause it requires big $$$ for pistol and shotgun. Lets face it, rifle doesn't matter-no significance having a bipod or a 2nd optic. So, for shotgun, buy a $3-4k shotgun and you can compete in open WRONG!! You can get into a Saiga for about a grand or less depending on what you want. Do a conversion, add a magwell and buy some mags. I think I would have to buy a R&R Saiga with a suitcase full of mags to get to $4K. Firebird is currently estimating a full race Akdal at $1800 with gun or $1200 on customer gun. New Akdals are/will go for about $700 from the usual dealers. Trigger conversions will cost about $100 for 922 compliance. Mags will be out soon. I have parts on order for mine that total about $370 plus the Tromix gas piston for $35. Thats $1105 on my calculator. Add the cost of a DeltaPoint and 4 mags at even $50 and we are also still a LOOONG way from 3 grand. Less than the price of many 2011 handguns without mags and holsters and mag carriers. I have been shooting a semi stock XD and am in process of adding a Carver mount and C-more. The package is about $380 on top of the gun. Its not comped but that still gets the open dot pistol for about $1350. The holster is gonna bite me for $200. Once again more in a handgun than a shotgun. And my bipod serves me well compared to monopoding. Plus I can take it off between stages. If you dont want to shoot open dont but dont use it as a tool to discredit IMG rules and promote USPSA rules. Edited October 14, 2011 by tnek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Uh... Outerlimits is a looooooonnng time Open shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentG Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 (edited) Uh... Outerlimits is a looooooonnng time Open shooter. Uh... With all due respect for anyone who likes to shoot, if thats for me please tell me what you mean and why. And how that matters. My math is pretty close. Edited October 14, 2011 by tnek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 IIRC, OuterLimits had been a regular at the old Soldier of Fortune matches, which is kinda like the grand daddy of all the other 3 gun matches. So, he has seen a lot of things come and go trend-wise in terms of gear and "tactics". IMO, there is a lot of marketing involved when it comes to open gear. Do you need a $3,000 STI/SVI open pistol and $500 worth of matching double stack mags on your belt? No. Hmmn...I dunno.... Sometimes I feel like I am at a fashion show at some matches...the whole Smith's keeping up with the Jones's thing.. My gut feeling about the bipod and the secondary red dot optic is that if it wasn't useful or beneficial they would have been kicked to the curb a long time ago... unless of course they are used a medium to sell the latest gee whiz go faster gear. (shrugs shoulders) getting back on topic.... yeah, Open should be Open, no holds barred, balls to the wall, anything goes, pedal to the metal.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Uh... Outerlimits is a looooooonnng time Open shooter. Uh... With all due respect for anyone who likes to shoot, if thats for me please tell me what you mean and why. And how that matters. My math is pretty close. If you dont want to shoot open dont but dont use it as a tool to discredit IMG rules and promote USPSA rules. Well if the guys been shooting Open since the invention of dirt how do you come to the conclusion that he doesn't want to shoot Open? Or are you saying someone else "dont want to shoot open..." and is "using it as a tool to discredit IMG rules and promote USPSA rules"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 (edited) Uh... Outerlimits is a looooooonnng time Open shooter. Uh... With all due respect for anyone who likes to shoot, if thats for me please tell me what you mean and why. And how that matters. My math is pretty close. What he means is that Outerlimits didn't pick $3-4k out of the air You're math may be right if all you do is shoot a few local matches with a dremeled home built saiga, but if you think you can be competitive for a full 3 Gun season in Open with a $1000 Saiga you're wrong. They simply don't run near as reliably or as fast as a full on Open Saiga from Firebird, Jack Travers, or r&r. Also, I don't how you think you will get by with 4 five round mags for an Akdal but 20rds won't get you very far on a shot only stage let alone mixing in a reload to slugs, buck, etc. Yes, Jim says the Akdal will be available for $1800....add $300-$400 for an RDS....you will need at least six mags (at least $100 per) $600....now you are already at $2800ish and you haven't even added in the associated mag holders, couplers, or spare parts etc. to get you through a season. The bottom line is gettting a competitive setup to run with the big dogs for $3000 is cutting it close. Edited October 14, 2011 by smokshwn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Tnek, Craig knows what he's talking about (and oh, it pains me to say that). Outerlimits has probably been shooting 3 Gun longer than you've been alive (he's like a 112 I think) He used to shoot it with a blunderbuss and a muzzle loader. You can shoot any guns you want in Open. You can get into Open as cheap as you want. You can shoot a used P85, Mossberg 500, and an iron sight Ruger Mini 14. You can probably buy all three guns for under 1000. Doesn't mean it's a good idea. Yes, you can get into a Saiga on the cheap. It will fail you at some point, and it's not competetive at the highest levels. No one has ever won a major three gun match with a home dremeled Saiga. The point is it costs a couple thousand more to be competetive in 3 Gun in Open. Between the additional costs of red dots, comps and extra gadgets that Open allows, it's going to be more expensive. But isn't that what Open is about? The ability to push equipment to the limit of it's capability, not the arbitrary rules or budget? I talked about this with Mark Hanish last year at the MG Nats. At the time I was trying to think of a reasonable limit in Open for SG, similar to the 170mm limit for pistol. Could really come up with one that would be fair to XRails and Saiga's alike. Mark wanted open to be open. He said if he wanted to make a belt fed shotgun let him. Can't really come up with an argument for his logic. Plus I really want to shoot a belt fed shotgun. We have other divisions for folks that want to get into multigun on a budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Chuck it is not really clear from your post above. Do you favor letting open be open for purposes of USPSA rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R-Bros_JLR Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Chuck, thanks for getting this thread back on topic. My thought is that Open should be unlimited. If you want to shoot a SG with 100 rounds on the damn thing then be my guest. There are still going to be stages set up that will challenge any equipment we can come up with. Open is supposed to be the division that pushes the limits of equipment and that push is what drives everyone to develop new products. LET OPEN BE OPEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 (edited) I agree and suggest that the standard should not be "why change" but rather "why not make this change". If there is a good reason not to allow open to be open in shotgun, I have not heard it. In fact I have never heard anyone even attempt to argue otherwise. Edited October 14, 2011 by Charles Bond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentG Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Uh... Outerlimits is a looooooonnng time Open shooter. Uh... With all due respect for anyone who likes to shoot, if thats for me please tell me what you mean and why. And how that matters. My math is pretty close. What he means is that Outerlimits didn't pick $3-4k out of the air You're math may be right if all you do is shoot a few local matches with a dremeled home built saiga, but if you think you can be competitive for a full 3 Gun season in Open with a $1000 Saiga you're wrong. They simply don't run near as reliably or as fast as a full on Open Saiga from Firebird, Jack Travers, or r&r. Also, I don't how you think you will get by with 4 five round mags for an Akdal but 20rds won't get you very far on a shot only stage let alone mixing in a reload to slugs, buck, etc. Yes, Jim says the Akdal will be available for $1800....add $300-$400 for an RDS....you will need at least six mags (at least $100 per) $600....now you are already at $2800ish and you haven't even added in the associated mag holders, couplers, or spare parts etc. to get you through a season. The bottom line is gettting a competitive setup to run with the big dogs for $3000 is cutting it close. I dont think you have to buy a custom gun from someone to be competative but I dont shoot at a national level. Plus the price of Akdal mags MAY start at about $100 but they wont stay at that level. Compare the Saiga mags. They are about half the price they came out at. While its thread drift the idea that if you dont buy a shotgun from some kind of ubersmith it wont work is a bunch of salesmanship. Getting started with 4 mags was a pulled from the air base number. One thing to remember, most of us shoot club or regional matches mostly. 5-6 mags would be plenty but depending on breakage there would need to be more. I dont care if someone has been shooting since they had to use a musket, you dont have to spend 3-4K to shoot open shotgun. There are folks who spend a lot more money than I have in my Saiga and will end up having in my Akdal on a Benelli from a ubersmith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentG Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 (edited) Tnek, Craig knows what he's talking about (and oh, it pains me to say that). Outerlimits has probably been shooting 3 Gun longer than you've been alive (he's like a 112 I think) He used to shoot it with a blunderbuss and a muzzle loader. You can shoot any guns you want in Open. You can get into Open as cheap as you want. You can shoot a used P85, Mossberg 500, and an iron sight Ruger Mini 14. You can probably buy all three guns for under 1000. Doesn't mean it's a good idea. Yes, you can get into a Saiga on the cheap. It will fail you at some point, and it's not competetive at the highest levels. No one has ever won a major three gun match with a home dremeled Saiga. The point is it costs a couple thousand more to be competetive in 3 Gun in Open. Between the additional costs of red dots, comps and extra gadgets that Open allows, it's going to be more expensive. But isn't that what Open is about? The ability to push equipment to the limit of it's capability, not the arbitrary rules or budget? I talked about this with Mark Hanish last year at the MG Nats. At the time I was trying to think of a reasonable limit in Open for SG, similar to the 170mm limit for pistol. Could really come up with one that would be fair to XRails and Saiga's alike. Mark wanted open to be open. He said if he wanted to make a belt fed shotgun let him. Can't really come up with an argument for his logic. Plus I really want to shoot a belt fed shotgun. We have other divisions for folks that want to get into multigun on a budget. My point is, as you stated you dont have to spend a bunch of money to shoot open. Personally I think the limiting factor will be how much weight will someone want to deal with as far as swinging the front heavy xrail. I read or heard somewhere that the girls are/were having problems with the weight of the xrail. Add enough and the guys will too. Be it rail or mags or a belt. Edited October 14, 2011 by tnek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Yes, and those contries voted in favour of changing those rules. All big rifle and SG countries voted against the rule change but we lost. All biggest regions voted against those changes but there is 1 vote for voting region which is not based on the membership quantity. All regions which has paid for 100 members have 1 vote. That will be the eventually downfall of IPSC, in my opinion. I don't think many realize that a region can have...say...20 total members...but PAY for a full membership, and they get a vote that carries the same weight as a region with hundreds (or thousands) of members. And, did the IPSC Executive Council (or some internal body) issue a voting guide again this time around? I honestly think that system is corrupt. (Note: I am not accusing anyone within the system of being corrupt. It is just a system that consolidates power. In other words, a bad system, IMO.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 USPSA has no mag restrictions for rifles whether they be open or otherwise. As to the comment about IPSC rules, think about how much sense it makes that all of these IPSC regions who can not shoot rifle or shotgun have the same vote on amendments to rules that regions where rifle and shotgun matches are held. Yes, and those contries voted in favour of changing those rules. All big rifle and SG countries voted against the rule change but we lost. All biggest regions voted against those changes but there is 1 vote for voting region which is not based on the membership quantity. All regions which has paid for 100 members have 1 vote. What you folks need to do is form a new organization that does not include the small groups that are wrecking IPSC shotgun. I shot the Pan Am last year and thought that was a pretty good competition, but with the new rules I would probably not bother to attend. As for USPSA, I also believe that Open should be Open, with no restrictions, because this is where the advances are made in new technology and inovation. The popularity of outlaw 3 gun proves that a majority of shooters feel the same, I just can't understand why USPSA doesn't get the message. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 The economic argument for the 10+1 limit on shotgun does not have any bearing. As long as Tac optics seems to require a 1-6 Swaro to be a cool guy, an Xrail or R&R Saga does not seem cost prohibitive for open. Open should be for the most part open. There is no restriction on rifle, hardly any on pistol, why hobble the shotgun? When there are off the shelf systems that have a 20+ round capacity why not drop the shackles? Take the restrictor plates off, I don't care if it means no shotgun reloads on some stages, we can use big sticks for our pistol but not our shotguns? This has all been said before, by more eloquent people than me, I am just going to shoot limited and shut up...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Yes, and those contries voted in favour of changing those rules. All big rifle and SG countries voted against the rule change but we lost. All biggest regions voted against those changes but there is 1 vote for voting region which is not based on the membership quantity. All regions which has paid for 100 members have 1 vote. That will be the eventually downfall of IPSC, in my opinion. I don't think many realize that a region can have...say...20 total members...but PAY for a full membership, and they get a vote that carries the same weight as a region with hundreds (or thousands) of members. And, did the IPSC Executive Council (or some internal body) issue a voting guide again this time around? I honestly think that system is corrupt. (Note: I am not accusing anyone within the system of being corrupt. It is just a system that consolidates power. In other words, a bad system, IMO.) Since most US states have more USPSA shooters than some IPSC regions, can't we have each and every state join IPSC as a region? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Doug, we've got it. We're just trying to come up with some consensus and rules that everyone can live with. Not one rule set for one match, another for a different one and have to change gear everytime you travel to a different three gun match. Not that I think everyone needs to use exactly the same rules, but it would be nice to have equipment, and safety rules even across the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Yes, and those contries voted in favour of changing those rules. All big rifle and SG countries voted against the rule change but we lost. All biggest regions voted against those changes but there is 1 vote for voting region which is not based on the membership quantity. All regions which has paid for 100 members have 1 vote. That will be the eventually downfall of IPSC, in my opinion. I don't think many realize that a region can have...say...20 total members...but PAY for a full membership, and they get a vote that carries the same weight as a region with hundreds (or thousands) of members. And, did the IPSC Executive Council (or some internal body) issue a voting guide again this time around? I honestly think that system is corrupt. (Note: I am not accusing anyone within the system of being corrupt. It is just a system that consolidates power. In other words, a bad system, IMO.) Since most US states have more USPSA shooters than some IPSC regions, can't we have each and every state join IPSC as a region? The argument from IPSC is that it would require an additional payment. IPSC caps regional membership payments at 2000 members. Whether we have 2000 or 20000 we pay the same. In a way it's good for us because the individual share per member is minimal. The down side is we have a very small voice in the matters of IPSC. If we were to go to a per member vote, USPSA would dominate IPSC and our dues would go up about $5.00 a year. To be honest, I don't think there are 5000 people in USPSA that care enough about what IPSC does to pay an extra $5.00. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentG Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Doug, we've got it. We're just trying to come up with some consensus and rules that everyone can live with. Not one rule set for one match, another for a different one and have to change gear everytime you travel to a different three gun match. Not that I think everyone needs to use exactly the same rules, but it would be nice to have equipment, and safety rules even across the board. A non shotgun question. What about pistol? The 9 is popular in IMG rules since there is no power factor to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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